Interesting comment on tithing

[mnn727]

How many times do you plan to remodify your post?

I already answered you: I am not upset, and you need do nothing to assist.

I thought my first one was a bit rough, deleted it, then went back and changed it.

My posts are never final for an hour or so.

I do agree with you that the internet writer can not define it for someone else, however if he wants to do it that way its his and Gods business.

You do seem out of sorts though.

[Vort]

I thought my first one was a bit rough, deleted it, then went back and changed it.

My posts are never final for an hour or so.

Fair enough. Mine are often the same way.

I do agree with you that the internet writer can not define it for someone else, however if he wants to do it that way its his and Gods business.

Not sure what you think I said that contradicts this idea. That the original writer on the SLTrib site was an idiot? He was, primarily because he violated the idea you put forth above.

You do seem out of sorts though.

In this case, appearances are deceiving.

[john doe]

you should probably ignore most of what the Trib writes and all of the comment their site generates.

I read the Trib online because they are very good at presenting the facts, much better than the DesNews. I stop reading when they or their commenters start giving opinions, which generally are not worth the bandwidth they use. Usually the opinions directly contradict the facts just presented. Extremely hateful people read and comment there, and the Trib does do do some catering to them with their choices of topics. They know who reads their paper.

[IamLegend]

Tithing does not matter to the rich, it is all tax deductible. They basically pay zero tithing and still are considered Temple worthy members. I have a hard time figuring out how they are living the Law of Consecration. It is a good thing I don't make the rules because I would actually require them to pay tithe. Then again, all the GA's are rich... Similar to how the rich make the laws for the USA. O well hopefully the Lord will sort it out.

[Vort]

Tithing does not matter to the rich, it is all tax deductible. They basically pay zero tithing and still are considered Temple worthy members.

Do you have even the least little idea what you're talking about? Apparently not.

In what possible sense do you think "tax deductible" means "they pay zero tithing"?

Btw, tithing is tax deductible for poor folks, too.

[Anddenex]

Again, that is how you define tithing. The church has not defined income. Some define it as paying 10% on the net rather than the gross or some other method.

That is simply how the Lord through Brigham Young taught it:

"If he has only ten dollars he can pay one; if he has only one dollar he can pay ten cents...if he has a hundred dollars he can possibly pay ten." Teaching of the Prophets: Brigham Young

As already stated by Modorbund:

"The First Presidency has explained that 'one-tenth of all their interest annually' refers to our income." Gospel Principles Chapter 32.

So if my income annually is $300, then the math is simple, I pay $30 in tithing. This is not how I define it; this is how the Lord defined it through his prophets.

My comment mentions nothing of gross or net, or by some other method.

I am reminded of President Hinckley's words regarding the law of tithing and comparing it to the income tax we pay as Americans. He simply stated,

"One need only compare it [tithing] with the income tax to recognize the simplicity that comes of the wisdom of God in contrast with the complexity that comes of the wisdom of men."

He further states, when as a boy meeting with Bishop John C. Duncan,

"The amount may have been only twenty-five cents, but it was an honest 10 percent as we had figured it in our childish way, based on the little couplet that we would recite in Sunday School, 'What is tithing? I will tell you every time. Ten cents from a dollar, and a penny from a dime."

From this it would be easy to gather the 25 cents resulted from an earned income of $2.50.

Tithing is a simple mathematical equation, and the more complex we make this simple equation the less likely we will fall under a "honest tithe" when the Lord requires an accounting at our hands.

[circusboy01]

Very simple. Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase.

The guy you quote is an idiot. Please ignore him. His opinion is worth nothing, and perhaps less than that.

In fact, you should probably ignore most of what the Trib writes and all of the comment their site generates.

Gross not net. Right? Brother Ray.? If it's net I've got a big refund coming. Just kidding ;0)

[Arnolt]

Very simple. Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase.

The guy you quote is an idiot. Please ignore him. His opinion is worth nothing, and perhaps less than that.

In fact, you should probably ignore most of what the Trib writes and all of the comment their site generates.

Well, I can't see the guy is an idiot as well as I can't see " the Salt Lake Tribulation is a rag and that its comment sections are the stinking bowels of hell".

I just want to remember that there were so many fanatic priests in the history of mankind who were speaking in a similar way like you are doing right now here. And I'm not sure if they always were completely being impressed only by the Spirit of God...

When the missionaries came here half a year ago, they told me about some news about tighing. People who are unemployed and only receive less money from the state in form of unemployment insurance (Germany) or social aid (England) only should pay the tenth from the (monthly) amount that rests them when they have subtracted their rent, energy costs, and their monthly budget for food und things necessary. This means the amount one is disposing of without need of using it for existential use.

And the next question: What is gross or net? I get an unemployability pension (here in Germany it is not a benefit but a part of the social insurance system) and fifty per cent of the amount I have to pay for health insurance and long term care insurance is supported by the state with fifty percent. So my gross is aprox. 1100,- Euros and my net approx 980,- Euros. After have subtracted my costs for rent an energy, internet, phone and TV, water and wastewater levy, and food for the month there doesnt rest much. If I payed the tenth from my gross income, it certainly would be too much and I couldn't get along.

If it was in my discretion, I could give monthly about 30,- to max. 50,- Euros as a donation for the church. This of course wouldn't come up with the tenth based on my gross income. Well, Vort, now you might more a bit guess where the problem results from and why those questions are posed. For me it has been a quite important question and as a result I've been hesitating in getting further involved with the church. It would only result in distrust if there were members of the church here in my ward who payed more than me and insisted on your point of view.

Sorry, I don't need that kind of struggle and stress surely facing me when I was among them. Thus, there should be more official norms to quit down the uncertainty and to make interested people like me more willing to make one step more in direction to the church.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Arnolt

[Praetorian_Brow]

Odd that you all agree that tithing is voluntary but decry the idea that tithing is fixed at a minimum rate. It is much easier to teach a rule of 10% because it guarantees just that from most people. Tell your whorshippers that you can donate as you see fit and you just get a bunch of confused people that mill about and cry foul that they don't understand.

Tithing has always been a donation of an increase in substance. The substance being over and above what you need.

All those wonderful heart warming stories of your mothers cousins bestfriend paying tithing before eating is all well and good, but it defeats the purpose of charitable donations when you give to the very system that has to support you after your giving. My mother did that, gave tithing on the money I gave her that I had already relunctantly (gasp) had already paid tithing on, despite have no income and living a lifestyle that 99% of North America would refuse to live.

The question in the interviews is, do you pay a full tithe? Not, do you pay 10%. Knock yourself out, pay 4% or, pay 50%. Lets face it, we are very well off as we type on this luxury computer.

[Arnolt]

Odd that you all agree that tithing is voluntary but decry the idea that tithing is fixed at a minimum rate. It is much easier to teach a rule of 10% because it guarantees just that from most people. Tell your whorshippers that you can donate as you see fit and you just get a bunch of confused people that mill about and cry foul that they don't understand.

Tithing has always been a donation of an increase in substance. The substance being over and above what you need.

All those wonderful heart warming stories of your mothers cousins bestfriend paying tithing before eating is all well and good, but it defeats the purpose of charitable donations when you give to the very system that has to support you after your giving. My mother did that, gave tithing on the money I gave her that I had already relunctantly (gasp) had already paid tithing on, despite have no income and living a lifestyle that 99% of North America would refuse to live.

The question in the interviews is, do you pay a full tithe? Not, do you pay 10%. Knock yourself out, pay 4% or, pay 50%. Lets face it, we are very well off as we type on this luxury computer.

Yes, you are right. And I am impressed and thankful about your words concerning your mother and that 99 per cent of North America would refuse to live the way she did. Yes, we are very well off as we're typing on our note books or computers...

Comment est-il le temps avec vous ? En Hambourg, il pleut...

Edited June 27, 2012 by Arnolt

[Vort]

Well, I can't see the guy is an idiot as well as I can't see " the Salt Lake Tribulation is a rag and that its comment sections are the stinking bowels of hell".

I just want to remember that there were so many fanatic priests in the history of mankind who were speaking in a similar way like you are doing right now here.

You know that Hitler spoke German...

(Translation, in case you've been hitting that German beer again: Commonality of certain aspects of speech does not imply commonality of meaning or purpose. Or more openly, in case you're really hammered: Saying that evil priests spoke "in a similar way" to me is silly and meaningless.)

[Vort]

Well, I can't see the guy is an idiot as well as I can't see " the Salt Lake Tribulation is a rag and that its comment sections are the stinking bowels of hell".

That may be because you have not spent time, as I have, reading the Trib.

I just want to remember that there were so many fanatic priests in the history of mankind who were speaking in a similar way like you are doing right now here.

You know that Hitler spoke German...

(Translation, in case you've been hitting that German beer again: Commonality of certain aspects of speech does not imply commonality of meaning or purpose. Or more openly, in case you're really hammered: Saying that evil priests spoke "in a similar way" to me is silly and meaningless.)

When the missionaries came here half a year ago, they told me about some news about tighing. People who are unemployed and only receive less money from the state in form of unemployment insurance (Germany) or social aid (England) only should pay the tenth from the (monthly) amount that rests them when they have subtracted their rent, energy costs, and their monthly budget for food und things necessary. This means the amount one is disposing of without need of using it for existential use.

Even if the missionaries told you this, what of it? How does that relate to the conversation at hand? The missionaries may have been instructed to give specific teaching to specific people in specific places and situations. You may be sure that such teachings have not been and almost certainly will not be broadcast worldwide in General Conference.

Well, Vort, now you might more a bit guess where the problem results from and why those questions are posed. For me it has been a quite important question and as a result I've been hesitating in getting further involved with the church. It would only result in distrust if there were members of the church here in my ward who payed more than me and insisted on your point of view.

Interesting. What, exactly, do you think constitutes my point of view? (Besides that blustering bigmouths who post doctrinal diatribes on the SLTrib site against the Church's practices and membership are idiots, I mean.) And how would you ever know how much anyone else paid in tithing, or they how much you pay?

I have paid a full tithing my entire life, since I was a small child. I have paid when I was a college student. I have paid when I was a struggling grad student who did not know how I would make next month's rent. I have paid when unemployed for a five-month stretch and in years when I worked only seven months. I know about tithing based on an almost fifty-year lifetime of direct experience paying it. My opinions on tithing (which I doubt you know because I do not believe I have expressed them in this thread) are well-considered from literally decades of faithful and sometimes painful observance of that law.

Sorry, I don't need that kind of struggle and stress surely facing me when I was among them. Thus, there should be more official norms to quit down the uncertainty and to make interested people like me more willing to make one step more in direction to the church.

That is not how things work in the Church, Arnolt. We don't do things by majority vote or take the path of least resistance, trying to reel in as many fish as we can snag. We are led by prophets who, we believe, speak for God.

The prophets have not given specific, minute interpretation of the word "increase" for the simple fact that no such minute interpretation is possible in a worldwide Church. If you're a farmer and your sow has ten piglets, a tithe is one piglet. But if you're a factory worker who earns a wage, and that wage might include benefits like health care, and you also pay a tax on your income -- well, how do you calculate your "increase"? Some simply take our gross salary and move the decimal point one place to the left. Others, such as business owners, must follow a different path. Those living in socialistic countries might have to go through even more contortions to arrive at a figure for tithing.

In the end, tithing is a tenth of your increase. That's it. What constitutes "increase" is between you, your bishop, and the Lord, with the bishop acting mostly as an adviser. Despite the rantings of the guy on the SLTrib site, there is no other, deeper large-scale definition. That is by design.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Vort

[applepansy]

Odd that you all agree that tithing is voluntary but decry the idea that tithing is fixed at a minimum rate. It is much easier to teach a rule of 10% because it guarantees just that from most people. Tell your whorshippers that you can donate as you see fit and you just get a bunch of confused people that mill about and cry foul that they don't understand.

Tithing has always been a donation of an increase in substance. The substance being over and above what you need.

All those wonderful heart warming stories of your mothers cousins bestfriend paying tithing before eating is all well and good, but it defeats the purpose of charitable donations when you give to the very system that has to support you after your giving. My mother did that, gave tithing on the money I gave her that I had already relunctantly (gasp) had already paid tithing on, despite have no income and living a lifestyle that 99% of North America would refuse to live.

The question in the interviews is, do you pay a full tithe? Not, do you pay 10%. Knock yourself out, pay 4% or, pay 50%. Lets face it, we are very well off as we type on this luxury computer.

I need a source on that please. I can't find anywhere in the scriptures or in conference talks or anywhere for that matter that states "increase in substance". Nor have I ever heard in my 54 years in the church increase was calculated AFTER your needs.

Good Grief! The things people will come up with to justify giving less.

As far as I'm concerned its all the Lord's anyway. I'll gladly give 10% of my increase and I define increase by the actual dollar amount that comes into the home before we pay bills and buy groceries. If somebody else wants to define it another way fine..... but as for me and mine we will serve the Lord.

Maybe things would be easier if we still had chickens and planted crops. My grandmother gave one egg in ten from right out from under the hens. Not after she baked the cake.

[Arnolt]

That may be because you have not spent time, as I have, reading the Trib.

You know that Hitler spoke German...

(Translation, in case you've been hitting that German beer again: Commonality of certain aspects of speech does not imply commonality of meaning or purpose. Or more openly, in case you're really hammered: Saying that evil priests spoke "in a similar way" to me is silly and meaningless.)

Even if the missionaries told you this, what of it? How does that relate to the conversation at hand? The missionaries may have been instructed to give specific teaching to specific people in specific places and situations. You may be sure that such teachings have not been and almost certainly will not be broadcast worldwide in General Conference.

Interesting. What, exactly, do you think constitutes my point of view? (Besides that blustering bigmouths who post doctrinal diatribes on the SLTrib site against the Church's practices and membership are idiots, I mean.)

I have paid a full tithing my entire life, since I was a small child. I have paid when I was a college student. I have paid when I was a struggling grad student who did not know how I would make next month's rent. I have paid when unemployed for a five-month stretch and in years when I worked only seven months. I know about tithing based on an almost fifty-year lifetime of direct experience paying it. My opinions on tithing (which I doubt you know because I do not believe I have expressed them in this thread) are well-considered from literally decades of faithful and sometimes painful observance of that law.

That is not how things work in the Church, Arnolt. We don't do things by majority vote or take the path of least resistance, trying to reel in as many fish as we can snag. We are led by prophets who, we believe, speak for God.

The prophets have not given specific, minute interpretation of the word "increase" for the simple fact that no such minute interpretation is possible in a worldwide Church. If you're a farmer and your sow has ten piglets, a tithe is one piglet. But if you're a factory worker who earns a wage, and that wage might include benefits like health care, and you also pay a tax on your income -- well, how do you calculate your "increase"? Some simply take our gross salary and move the decimal point one place to the left. Others, such as business owners, must follow a different path. Those living in socialistic countries might have to go through even more contortions to arrive at a figure for tithing.

In the end, tithing is a tenth of your increase. That's it. What constitutes "increase" is between you, your bishop, and the Lord, with the bishop acting mostly as an adviser. Despite the rantings of the guy on the SLTrib site, there is no other, deeper large-scale definition. That is by design.

You know that Hitler spoke German...

(Translation, in case you've been hitting that German beer again: Commonality of certain aspects of speech does not imply commonality of meaning or purpose. Or more openly, in case you're really hammered: Saying that evil priests spoke "in a similar way" to me is silly and meaningless.)

And you're one of the most bloodiest idiots I've ever met. As much disgusting as one can be to me. I didn't know this was a gay's discussion forum. "Beefche" might slack your ***, and you might go on wringing words out of your burnt half casted mind and receive the sperma of the world as you're in the right position in your bloody avatar! Schwule Sau!

I'm going from here and say: **** yourself, with your bloody priesthood-**** and your church that allows gays here to write and pretent they are priests. Come to Virginia, and weŕe gonna show you how it works.

THE SOUTH IS GONNA RISE AGAIN!

Edited June 27, 2012 by Arnolt

[Praetorian_Brow]

Not once did I infer that one should cheat their integrity or their will to pay tithing.

It is fundamentally erreoneous to calculate a donation before your needs are met. What good is a donation if you are forcing yourself into a hole on a monthly basis? What are you getting? More faith points? More blessings? More smug assertions that you are more righteous than others?

Tithing forces us to manage our finances and is an affirmation of your will to keep faith. What is one thing that most people are afraid to part with? Wealth. Give some of your wants away and you are humbling yourself.

I prefer to focus on the spirit of the law, rather than the letter. If you are comforted by linear thinking, then by all means, take that path. I, on the other hand will remain a dynamic thinker. If that threatens who you are, then I wonder how confident you really are.

A cake is a luxury and eggs go bad very quickly.

[Traveler]

You may all do as you wish to do. But I believe that G-d is more impressed (gives blessings) with the sacrifices of the poor to make offerings than he is of those that are not poor. Therefore, I believe that those that are not poor as to worldly things need to give more - or should I say - make more sacrifice (perhaps of things not worldly).

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Non-LDS view--the tithe is the first fruit of our increase. Even Cain and Abel did this (Abel more effectively). Many apply this to modernity and suggest that the 10% should be off our gross--before "subsistance" and before taxes (since we generally benefit from government services). I used to be quite strong about this stand.

I believe it was here that someone pointed out that in some countries taxes are well in excess of 50%, and that it might be unreasonable to apply the "gross" standard in all circumstances. So, there should be some room for conscience, and for seeking God in this.

As a nod to Traveler's point, I understand that Rick Warren (Purpose Driven Life author) did a "reverse tithe" on his book, giving 90% of the profits to Christian charities. Those with means probably do need to pray harder about how to invest strategically in the Kingdom.

[Echo2002]

Tithing does not matter to the rich, it is all tax deductible. They basically pay zero tithing and still are considered Temple worthy members. I have a hard time figuring out how they are living the Law of Consecration. It is a good thing I don't make the rules because I would actually require them to pay tithe. Then again, all the GA's are rich... Similar to how the rich make the laws for the USA. O well hopefully the Lord will sort it out.

Tithing is tax deductible for most people. Just because you are paying tithing does not mean you are living the Law of Consecration, not even close. Anyone who wants to enter the Temple has to be a full tithe payer.

[Maureen]

...Good Grief! The things people will come up with to justify giving less.

As far as I'm concerned its all the Lord's anyway. I'll gladly give 10% of my increase and I define increase by the actual dollar amount that comes into the home before we pay bills and buy groceries. If somebody else wants to define it another way fine..... but as for me and mine we will serve the Lord....

So then it is not really between the member, the bishop and God on what is considered tithing, it is really about how you define tithing compared to how other members define it. And if their definition is different than yours then they are not really serving the Lord like you are.

M.

[Vort]

So then it is not really between the member, the bishop and God on what is considered tithing, it is really about how you define tithing compared to how other members define it. And if their definition is different than yours then they are not really serving the Lord like you are.

I believe you are misinterpreting applepansy's words. There are those who want to minimize their tithing, treat it like a tax and find "deductions" and such. This is antithetical to the spirit of tithing and of consecration. I believe applepansy was referencing these attitudes, and not generally anyone who defines things differently from her.

[Maureen]

Very simple. Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase....

...I have paid a full tithing my entire life, since I was a small child. I have paid when I was a college student. I have paid when I was a struggling grad student who did not know how I would make next month's rent. I have paid when unemployed for a five-month stretch and in years when I worked only seven months. I know about tithing based on an almost fifty-year lifetime of direct experience paying it. My opinions on tithing (which I doubt you know because I do not believe I have expressed them in this thread) are well-considered from literally decades of faithful and sometimes painful observance of that law....

...The prophets have not given specific, minute interpretation of the word "increase" for the simple fact that no such minute interpretation is possible in a worldwide Church....

In the end, tithing is a tenth of your increase. That's it. What constitutes "increase" is between you, your bishop, and the Lord, with the bishop acting mostly as an adviser....

Vort, what is the purpose of tithing? Is it not to sustain the earthly needs of “the church”? You seem to have interpreted “increase” as anything that helps you feel like a martyr. You tithed when unemployed? How does that work? What purpose or benefit does that bring to you or your church when you can barely keep yourself sustained let alone a “church” that has multiple members who do have the means to sustain it? If you as a member feel the need to tithe on an “increase” that does not exist, then why bother with needing a definition of tithing. If “increase” can mean anything, then why get all hot and bothered by other members that define it their own way, like you do? If as you say, that how a member defines “increase” is between the member, their bishop and God then why do members care how each other defines tithing? Why do members become self-righteous in just discussing the whole subject of tithing in the first place?

M.

[Dravin]

With the idea of judgement being cast upon those who define increase differently and the predilection for such threads to end up mired in such judgement flinging I'm closing the thread as a preemptive measure.