I hereby humbly submit to whatever the will of God proves to be

[peteolcott]

I think that (at least aspects of) the true will of God can be reverse-engineered from the single criterion measure of the success of the Master Plan: Maximize Joy.

If we diligently seek these aspects, the Holy Spirit will most effectively fill in the missing details. Test this and see if it rings true or false.

I will trust anything said that was spiritually discerned. I am striving for more humility, please be patient with me.

This bears repeating: I hereby humbly submit to the will of God.

[Dove]

Hi, Peteolcott;

How would you propose "maximizing ones' joy" in this life? What would you do to do this?

From my perspective and in my opinion....there is a reason the scripture quote that "men are that they might have joy" is ensconced in the chapter on opposition in the Book of Mormon...2 Nephi 2....I believe there is a difference between "joy" and being happy or having fun. Imo, true joy can only be experienced during or after experiencing it's opposite, which is generally pain, sorrow, suffering, etc. I strongly believe there is a point to suffering on this earth. Please don't misunderstand me~I don't advocating self-inflicted suffering. My experience has been that life will most certainly bring these aspects to our door, whether we're wanting them to come or not...

There are a plethora of scriptures in our standard works that relate stories of those who suffered and, in many instances, died because of their choice to be Christian/believers and followers of Christ. And, of course, our first prophet in this dispensation, Joseph Smith, gave his life for his Savior and His restored church. There are also scriptures that address those who are persecuted for His name and the blessings they will be given for their willingness to do so.....One of my favorite scriptures on this is in the Doctrine and Covenants~

"For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation.

For after much tribulation come the blessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be crowned with much glory; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand." (Doctrine and Covenants 58:2-4)

Admittedly, a lot of people have considered this a "negative" and downer way for me to look at this....But, I would invite you to study all the stories of those who experienced trials and tribulation on their journey back home, in the scriptures. Don't worry, you won't have to go far to find them. Job is a great place to start....

Thanks for starting this post. I admire your desire to "humbly submit to whatever the will of God proves to be." While I don't know what that's going to be for you, I have found that it is of utmost importance in keeping our baptismal/Temple covenants to be true to His will. Sadly, I don't do this very well....When I do better I sure feel the Holy Spirit a lot stronger in my heart and mind....

The best on your journey to do this...

Dove

[peteolcott]

Hi, Peteolcott;

How would you propose "maximizing ones' joy" in this life? What would you do to do this?

From my perspective and in my opinion....there is a reason the scripture quote that "men are that they might have joy" is ensconced in the chapter on opposition in the Book of Mormon...2 Nephi 2....I believe there is a difference between "joy" and being happy or having fun. Imo, true joy can only be experienced during or after experiencing it's opposite, which is generally pain, sorrow, suffering, etc.

Dove

If this is literally true then paradise could not possibly occur.

[prisonchaplain]

We will not need sorrow in paradise because our memories of sorrow in mortality will be crystal clear. The joy, peace and purpose of eternity will be so much richer for the difficulties we have already experienced. Scripture is clear--the suffering need not be eternal, but the rewards will be.

[Traveler]

First to the forum – Please everyone do not think I intend to rain on anyone parade but history is full of well-meaning dedicated to G-d individuals that have foolishly and tirelessly marched off in the wrong direction to serve G-d. During WWII at the battle of the bulge the rank and file German soldiers posted a sign facing the Allied lines that claimed “G-d is with us”.

It does seem to me that throughout history the call to serve G-d have been as destructive and an engine of human suffering as any other force the moves mankind. Currently the call of the Jihadist or terrorists is a call of total sacrifice in service to G-d.

Perhaps there are some things to consider in one’s service to G-d:

1. Don’t make a big deal of it or feel any need to announce your service to anyone.

2. Be willing not only to perform service in secret but be ashamed if you are discovered because you have, at least in part, failed if you are given thanks along with G-d.

3.. Understand the declaration of King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon “And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God. “

4. Do not perform your service thinking that it will make you any better than anyone else.

5. Do not perform your service thinking that it will somehow reap you some additional reward or joy either here or at some future time in heaven. Do it with the understanding that the best reward is in knowing that the needed service was accomplished.

6. Be willing to apologize and take all the blame if your efforts do not work out well.

7. Finally - Be willing to scrap all your plans and accept a call to be the only person to do the clean-up after the Primary nursery class (including through-up, spilled food and dirty dippers) so everybody else can be out in the hall socializing and having fun at the end of church.

Good Luck!

The Traveler

Edited July 4, 2012 by Traveler

[peteolcott]

Scripture is clear--the suffering need not be eternal, but the rewards will be.

Where does it say this?

[Anddenex]

Admittedly, a lot of people have considered this a "negative" and downer way for me to look at this....But, I would invite you to study all the stories of those who experienced trials and tribulation on their journey back home, in the scriptures. Don't worry, you won't have to go far to find them. Job is a great place to start....

I am not sure why anybody would consider this to be a negative outlook, when it is pretty cut and dry.

It is doctrinally true that without opposites we would not have become like God, knowing good and evil. This stands for joy and sorrow, life and death. Without the knowledge of the opposite it is literally impossible to know either. This is confirmed by 2 Nephi 2: 11 - 12, when it refers to "one body".f

One of my favorite quotes when understanding opposites said, "If you want to know what something is, then you must know what it is not." Once we understand what joy is not, its opposite, then we can more fully comprehend what it is.

How is a person able to distinguish joy or sorrow when they are "one body"? Thus, I don't see how anybody could possibly say it is a negative outlook when you are only explaining factual history within the Bible and other servants lives.

Thank you for the thoughts.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

If this is literally true then paradise could not possibly occur.

It appears you may have misinterpreted what Dove was expressing.

If what Dove said is literally true, then it is the reason why Paradise can occur. The opposite of Paradise is Spirit Prison or hell.

A person will not be fully capable of experiencing paradise unless they have knowledge of the lack of paradise. The depth at which we understand Paradise, will also allows us the understanding of its opposite. It can be said vice-versa as well, the depth at which we have comprehended hell, will also up us to understand the literal joy in Paradise.

I wish you the best in your pursuit to accept God's will, and would add, then make sure you seek the gift of Charity. The gift of Charity, is the primary element to fully accepting God's will in all we do, say, and experience. The greater our charity the greater our capacity accept God's will. Charity, the pure love of Christ, and Christ did all that God commanded and endured all that God saw fit Jesus should endure.

[prisonchaplain]

Where does it say this?

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will adwell with them, and they shall be his people, and bGod himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more adeath, neither bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more cpain: for the former things are passed away.

[Sicily510]

First and foremost I am so eternally beyond expression grateful to our Heavenly Father and the compassion he freely gives me and all of us. I am also grateful eternally beyond expression for our Savior Jesus Christ whom provided a straight and narrow path for us to be able to inherit Holiness so that we may be able to be cleansed (baptized) and worthy to stand in holy places and in the presence of the Lord thy God.

I'm very grateful for the knowledge of Jesus Christ teachings which allows me to reprove myself in his ways, and live in peace and humility. To my understanding as a member of "The Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints" we are his people. For only through Jesus Christ can we enter into our Heavenly Fathers kingdom. I have never been in a church that has focused so much love and devotion to our savior Jesus Christ than this church.

I admit that I was unequal in understanding even after the fact I was baptized into this church its true divine purpose, I was like a lost sheep withering away with the wind neither knowing where I'm going to go or where I want to be. I came to a point in my life that I have only Heavenly Fathers grace and mercy to lead me back to his fold.

I believe that the prophets from the old testament to this modern day are true prophets who only teach and seek to share teachings that is of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I am desirous to learn of Heavenly Father and able to discern whether the gospel is being taught with the spirit or without. For there are many who will claim to be teaching his gospels and yet may I quote "the words of the wise and their riddles. ... Dark sayings" proverb 1:6 is what becomes of it. I was given this Holy Spirit it's my inheritence to nurture and strengthen so that it may be of light for others to desire and acquire.

Mosiah 18:8-10

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

We are as to serve our Heavenly Father through charity, to help bear one anothers burdens so that they may be light, willing to mourn with those that mourn, and even comfort those that stand in need of comfort. And we must stand as "Witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—"

"As we focus our energies on lifting the burdens of others, something miraculous happens. Our own burdens diminish. We become happier. There is more substance to our lives."

David S. Baxter - Oct. Gen. Conf 2006

I would like to share a song that my brother-in-law with his brothers and sisters made. It's called "Anothers Burden" by the Moleni Brothers.

here is the lyrics too:

Lord I will follow thee

Give all my life to thee

I would do for you

All that you ask and more

Give me strength

And help me to be strength

To those in need to bear

Anothers burden like you did for me

Chorus

Yes I am willing to mourn with those that

Mourn comfort those who stand in need of comfort

Bear anothers burden that they may be light

Oh lord help me keep you in my life

2nd verse

The road will get better along the way

But help me to trust in thee and never go astray

That I may always be a strength to those in need

Only the beginning is near, let them know that you are

Always there to guide them back to thee

Where forever one day we will be

I love all my brothers and sisters near and far, and only desire that we all may live in true happiness. That we may inherit the light of Christ and dwell in holy places with thee. I'm thankful for this forum and for the many who are seeking the light of Christ and are among these chat threads. I hope that we all may be able to help another in some way when we are seeking to teach others in Jesus Christs let us also teach in meekness exemplifying his ways. Thanks for this post I just felt the spirit to know that you are not alone in wanting to submit to the will of Heavenly Fathers, and am so grateful to know that your willing to help bear each others burdens. May you always have his spirit with you to strengthen your ability to share his love and compassion with others.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Sicily510

[peteolcott]

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will adwell with them, and they shall be his people, and bGod himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more adeath, neither bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more cpain: for the former things are passed away.

That sounds encouraging, I had forgotten about this verse. thanks.

[rameumptom]

A couple thoughts:

1. How is it humble, if you broadcast such a statement over the Internet?

2. Maximizing Joy is not what the gospel is about. Becoming like Christ and God is what the gospel is all about. Joy is a by-product, and not the goal. You will find under God's plan that we all go through very difficult times. We will have to bear trials that will try our patience and bearing. There will be times when you will cry out as Jesus did, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" These are not happy nor joyful moments. They are moments with meaning. They cause us to grow and become as Christ. Joy becomes a by-product, but it does not come from seeking to maximize joy or happiness. Note that even God wept before Enoch upon planning to destroy the world by Flood. Christ wept over the sins of Jerusalem. Being like Christ does not mean we are blissfully happy all the time. Happiness is not the ends, but a by-product from seeking real meaning in one's life.

[Dove]

Hello,

I just wanted to add a little more of my thoughts to this thread. I'm sad as it seems to have waned. I believe that the "pursuit of happiness" or "joy" is something all of us have an innate drive to do. I believe this is an important topic.

Ramempton, I appreciate your post and I think I get a little of the gist of what you were saying....that if we spend our time in the carnal/selfish pursuit of seeking to make ourselves "feel good" in the name of obtaining happiness, we lose the point of what is such a major thrust of the gospel. To me that is a great deal of self-restraint, denying ourselves of carnal/worldly lusts, loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, and above all, putting His will before ours....or losing ourselves in serving Him/being His servants in all we do.

Yet, one of my personal struggles/weaknesses is to trust in God......I am working on truly believing that He has my best interest at His Heart. That He is in my corner. For me, this is the only way I can have hope/trust/faith in what is, in my experience, oftentimes an overwhelmingly painful and difficult time down here. I choose to believe that the pain and difficulty I experience here is for my own "eternal welfare" and ultimate good.

Some of my favorite scriptures in the Book of Mormon is Mosiah 14. Abinadi is quoting Isaiah here. It is in reference to the Savior. Here it is;

Yea, even doth not Isaiah say: Who hath abelieved our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is adespised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has aborne our bgriefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was awounded for our btransgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are chealed.

6 All we, like asheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he aopened not his mouth; he is brought as a blamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb so he opened not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgressions of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the arich in his death; because he had done no bevil, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to abruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see his bseed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall abear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the agreat, and bhe shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made cintercession for the transgressors.

This chapter is so comforting to me. It tells me that the Savior not only suffered on my behalf; but, that he understands completely any and all of the difficulty/pain/sorrow I've experienced. I definitely gain trust in Him because I know that He is not asking me to go through anything that He wasn't willing to go through Himself. I also know that there is a real purpose to opposition. If we are to follow the Saviors' example, then we must be willing to go through our own proportionately minuscule portion of suffering as He did.

As I've reflected on this, I've realized that yes, actually, there is a great deal that I have learned from the trials and tribulations in life. I've learned that without Him, I am absolutely nothing. That the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

As far as serving and loving others, I'm a complete idiot. I've learned to never assume or presume in relating to others. To never treat another person as a "duty,"

"responsibility," "service project" or "have to." To always, fully, and completely respect others' agency in how they choose to live their life and how they relate to their Creator. I am reminded of Doctrine and Covenants 121 34-44;

34 Behold, there are many acalled, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their ahearts are set so much upon the things of this bworld, and caspire to the dhonors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the arights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be bcontrolled nor handled only upon the cprinciples of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to acover our bsins, or to gratify our cpride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or ddominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens ewithdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to akick against the pricks, to bpersecute the saints, and to cfight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the anature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little bauthority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise cunrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but afew are chosen.

41 No apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the bpriesthood, only by cpersuasion, by dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By akindness, and pure bknowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the csoul without dhypocrisy, and without eguile—

43 aReproving betimes with bsharpness, when cmoved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of dlove toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of adeath.

45 Let thy abowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let bvirtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the dpresence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the edews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of brighteousness and truth; and thy cdominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

I like these scriptures. It helps me to have more faith and hope in mankind as a whole. It tells me that we are all given the tools/ability/choice to make it home, if this is what we truly want. Also, it takes a great deal of burden off my shoulders. Loving others becomes more of a process of trusting them to make the correct decisions for themselves and not feeling responsible for them if they don't. I believe it was Joseph Smith who said that he taught the Saints true principals and then let them govern themselves. Lastly, part of purity of heart to me is loving and helping others for the innate joy of just doing so. Meaning, not "serving" others for the many ulterior motives one can do so.....some examples being; to gain blessings in heaven, to convert them to my way of thinking/believing, etc, etc.

Lastly, I am reminded that there is soo much good to be had in our lives. A lot of happiness and sweet times along with the opposition.

Dove

[searching_questioner]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the idea that we only know the good if we first know the bad, or we only get to know what joy is if we have first experienced the bitter. I believe that many things are inherently nice or good, and that the niceness or goodness of those things does not in any way depend on a comparison with things that are not nice or good. I'm sure that I, and everyone, can know and enjoy and appreciate happiness without first having been unhappy. This type of experiential learning suggests that condition X, whether that be joy, happiness, pleasure, peace, or whatever, is simply an absence of condition Y, that is, the "opposite" of condition X. I also have some concerns about the idea that one feeling, or emotion, can be said to be the opposite of another feeling. Who came up with the idea that bitterness is the opposite of joy, or sorrow is the opposite of rejoicing? These so-called opposites seem to be learned, artificial constructs.

A question for you Dove: In your willingness to submit to the will of God, how do you go about deciding whether any particular event in your life, or set of circumstances, is the will of God, or just a set of random events, or possibly enough a cunning plan by the adversary to ensnare you?

[Dove]

Hello, searching_questioner;

It's funny how little I agree with the first paragraph of your post.....I apologize if saying that is rude~I do not mean to contend or cause contention...

The reason I say I disagree is a lot because of what I have read in the scriptures. As I've already referenced, a great deal of those scriptures come from 2 Nephi 2~ Please feel free to read this chapter carefully, as I feel it may give you a better understanding as to my stance. The whole chapter is focused on the necessity of Adams' fall and, because of the fall, the necessity of the Savior and His atonement for us....

starting with verse 10-11; "And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of Him according to the truth and holiness which is in Him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement.

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad......."

According to the passages that follow, one of the key reasons we are given opposition here on earth is so that we could experience having a choice between good or bad, or to have "agency." verse 16; "Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other."

Then verses 23-28 underscores the points I've already presented;

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no achildren; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no bjoy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no csin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who aknoweth all things.

25 aAdam bfell that men might be; and men care, that they might have djoy.

26 And the aMessiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may bredeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are credeemed from the fall they have become dfree forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the elaw at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the bflesh; and call things are dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose fliberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself.

As far as your question to me, hmmm, the scriptures mainly, events in my life and what some people have said to me.

I believe some things to be the will of God for me, that there are no "set of random events," and that there are many "cunning plans" laid by the adversary to ensnare me, which a kind and wise Heavenly Father allows in order to honor my agency and, if I choose to turn to Him and trust in Him, turns to my own eternal welfare and good.

I think of Ether 12:27; "And if men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble: and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

Why do I believe there is nothing random?

Doctrine and Covenants 59:21; "And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is His wrath kindled, save those who confess not His hand in all things, and obey not His commandments."

There's another thread being discussed right now in this section about God not giving us more then what we can handle, which is another scripture quote......(Personally, what with all the atrocity in the world, I believe rather that He will not hold us accountable for those things we cannot handle.)

I've heard testimonies of people who say that they have come to know that all events of their life have been carefully orchestrated by a kind and loving Creator....I also had another person tell me that "there are no accidents" in life. Given the few scriptures I just quoted, I choose to believe them....

Dove

[Misshalfway]

A couple thoughts:

1. How is it humble, if you broadcast such a statement over the Internet?

2. Maximizing Joy is not what the gospel is about. Becoming like Christ and God is what the gospel is all about. Joy is a by-product, and not the goal. You will find under God's plan that we all go through very difficult times. We will have to bear trials that will try our patience and bearing. There will be times when you will cry out as Jesus did, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" These are not happy nor joyful moments. They are moments with meaning. They cause us to grow and become as Christ. Joy becomes a by-product, but it does not come from seeking to maximize joy or happiness. Note that even God wept before Enoch upon planning to destroy the world by Flood. Christ wept over the sins of Jerusalem. Being like Christ does not mean we are blissfully happy all the time. Happiness is not the ends, but a by-product from seeking real meaning in one's life.

I can't argue with any of the sentiment here. But I will say that real joy IS one of my goals.

I think there has to be some incentive or else earth life would be a real drag.

I also think that searching for happiness/joy (however you want to term it) is something innate. I think the trick isn't turning it off, it's learning not to get stuck in happiness traps. It's learning, like what you said, HOW to experience life in all of its ups and down. Perhaps that is finding meaning, or learning lessons, or simply gaining perspective.

One challenge I have had is learning how to be happy or feel joy when things aren't going so well in my life. I've learned a few things. I'm afraid I have lots of wisdom yet to acquire. Until then, I'm going to continue to observe and emulate the people who seem to understand happiness in these deeper wiser ways. Hopefully, I'll attain more of my goal. :)

[Dove]

I can't argue with any of the sentiment here. But I will say that real joy IS one of my goals.

I think there has to be some incentive or else earth life would be a real drag.

I also think that searching for happiness/joy (however you want to term it) is something innate. I think the trick isn't turning it off, it's learning not to get stuck in happiness traps. It's learning, like what you said, HOW to experience life in all of its ups and down. Perhaps that is finding meaning, or learning lessons, or simply gaining perspective.

One challenge I have had is learning how to be happy or feel joy when things aren't going so well in my life. I've learned a few things. I'm afraid I have lots of wisdom yet to acquire. Until then, I'm going to continue to observe and emulate the people who seem to understand happiness in these deeper wiser ways. Hopefully, I'll attain more of my goal. :)

Hello, Miss Halfway;

I have a quote in my front room that I really like; "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain." Thanks for pointing this out. Something I'm trying to learn to do, too...

[Vort]

I have a quote in my front room that I really like; "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain."

Gene Kelly taught us about

, and Whitesnake meditated on

. I haven't learned yet about dancing in the rain, but I like the saying.

[pam]

There is a song by

about dancing in the rain that I like.

[Guest]

The title of this thread reminds me of some people in my family. They leave a wake of offense and hurt feelings everywhere they go, but their defense is always, "We have really pure hearts and good intentions". (I am 99.999999% certain that this is not the case, as they are very selfish, thoughtless, and devious.)

The also like to remind people frequently of how very humble they are.

[Sicily510]

The title of this thread reminds me of some people in my family. They leave a wake of offense and hurt feelings everywhere they go, but their defense is always, "We have really pure hearts and good intentions". (I am 99.999999% certain that this is not the case, as they are very selfish, thoughtless, and devious.)

The also like to remind people frequently of how very humble they are.

Regardless, if one is being offensive, we mustn't feed the fuel of selfishness, thoughtlessness nor deviousness through reacting defensively. When I read the title of this it reminds me how much all of us are equally humiliated in the presence of heavenly father and that when we seek for him will we truly understand his mercy.

Quote from Dieter F. Urchtdorf Second counselor in the First Presidency:

When it comes to our own prejudices and grievances, we too often justify our anger as righteous and our judgment as reliable and only appropriate. Though we cannot look into another’s heart, we assume that we know a bad motive or even a bad person when we see one. We make exceptions when it comes to our own bitterness because we feel that, in our case, we have all the information we need to hold someone else in contempt.

The Apostle Paul, in his letter to the Romans, said that those who pass judgment on others are “inexcusable.” The moment we judge someone else, he explained, we condemn ourselves, for none is without sin. Refusing to forgive is a grievous sin—one the Savior warned against. Jesus’s own disciples had “sought occasion against [each other] and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.”

Our Savior has spoken so clearly on this subject that there is little room for private interpretation. “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive,” but then He said, “… of you it is required to forgive all men.”

May I add a footnote here? When the Lord requires that we forgive all men, that includes forgiving ourselves. Sometimes, of all the people in the world, the one who is the hardest to forgive—as well as perhaps the one who is most in need of our forgiveness—is the person looking back at us in the mirror.

What I admire about this excerpt is the first underline in the first paragraph. Many who have the knowledge of heavenly fathers love understand that we must be merciful. It's not easy to be merciful in so many ways thus allowing the bitter cup to fill individuals with clouds of hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm. The two words that Urchtdorf said is "Stop It".........

Dieter F. Urchdorf continues....

It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”

We must recognize that we are all imperfect—that we are beggars before God. Haven’t we all, at one time or another, meekly approached the mercy seat and pleaded for grace? Haven’t we wished with all the energy of our souls for mercy—to be forgiven for the mistakes we have made and the sins we have committed?

Because we all depend on the mercy of God, how can we deny to others any measure of the grace we so desperately desire for ourselves? My beloved brothers and sisters, should we not forgive as we wish to be forgiven?

I love this talk on "The Merciful Obtain Mercy"

The Merciful Obtain Mercy - general-conference

This is why I truly believe that these are Holy witnesses Prophets and apostles of our Heavenly Father and Savior Jesus Christ. We are given counsel and enlightenment these latter-days, just like the days of old were given through inspiration and visions of the Holy Spirit.

[Misshalfway]

Gene Kelly taught us about

, and Whitesnake meditated on

. I haven't learned yet about dancing in the rain, but I like the saying.

Vort - Dancing in the rain could do you some good.

[Anddenex]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the idea that we only know the good if we first know the bad, or we only get to know what joy is if we have first experienced the bitter.

I believe that many things are inherently nice or good, and that the niceness or goodness of those things does not in any way depend on a comparison with things that are not nice or good. I'm sure that I, and everyone, can know and enjoy and appreciate happiness without first having been unhappy. This type of experiential learning suggests that condition X, whether that be joy, happiness, pleasure, peace, or whatever, is simply an absence of condition Y, that is, the "opposite" of condition X. I also have some concerns about the idea that one feeling, or emotion, can be said to be the opposite of another feeling. Who came up with the idea that bitterness is the opposite of joy, or sorrow is the opposite of rejoicing? These so-called opposites seem to be learned, artificial constructs.

I am wondering brother if you are thinking to hard, or to deeply on a simple subject. For example, in our common language, we have been taught since we were young the word antonym.

As you are familiar with an antonym is "a word opposite in meaning to another."

If we look at the antonyms for joy we discover they are: sadness, sorrow, unhappiness, woe, misery (there maybe other antonyms, or words which are opposite, but these will suffice).

You specify, "I'm sure that I, and everyone, can know and enjoy and appreciate happiness without first having been unhappy."

This wouldn't be a correct statement. How would a person know if they were happy if they had no knowledge of unhappiness. If happiness and unhappiness are "one body" as the scriptures specify, then no person would be able to distinguish if they were happy or if they were unhappy. You can use the term unhappy, because you know the opposite which is happiness, and this has been a result of either by personal experience or by observation (viewing or experiencing this unhappiness through the life of someone else).

"Who came up with the idea that bitterness is the opposite of joy, or sorrow is the opposite of rejoicing?"

This is an easy answer, the Lord did. This seems pretty simplistic, have you ever seen a person in sorrow, rejoicing? Have you ever seen a person in deep depression, while they are in their depression, rejoicing?

This is a simple gospel logic when you apply faith and doubt. These are opposites and the Lord through his prophets have testified many times, that faith and doubt are not able to occupy a persons mind at the same time. So a person can describe an opposite being two elements which cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

Now faith and doubt, occur naturally, however without the proper knowledge and meaning of either words, you or anybody would never know what they were feeling, they would only know that they were feeling.

Fruit exists, and some fruit is sweet and some fruit is bitter. However, until a person partakes of the fruit themselves, or by the experience and observation of watching another, you or I would never know which fruit is bitter and which fruit is sweet.

The same idea exists for that which is inherently good and which is inherently evil. Both good and evil exist, however, we would never know which is good and which is evil without first being taught, experiencing the good or evil by personal choice or by observing the personal choice of another.

2 Nephi 2: 11 - 25 is the best example of how one doesn't know good, joy, etc... until they experience choice for themselves.

Verse 23, is the culmination of the previous verses, "And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin."

Yet, all these things existed while they were in the garden, but could not experience them due to the state of knowledge and mind they were in. It wasn't until Eve partook of something bitter, that they officially knew what joy was compared to misery.

So, as you specified, who came up with this---the answer is simple, the Lord within scripture.