Why I disagree...

[Hewitt]

Hi everyone - this is my first post here and it is nice to meet everyone. I hope I have placed this in the right subforum.

I come here as a Homosexual Atheist who has a strong interest in Humanity and all religion. Regardless of what I am about to say I am always in favour of the right for people to follow their religion. I have a few questions for everyone here...

1. Despite being an Atheist I have an extremely strong belief in the importance of Love, Kindness and forgiveness. I only have one life that is why it is so important I make the most of it and live the most kind and fulfilling life possible. As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

With this is mind I would be unhappy if I had to live my life pretending to be something I am not, it is important to me to be genuine and honest. That brings me to the point that baffles me - homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes. Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

2. The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith? Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment. I have no issue with things such as not consuming caffeine and alcohol those are simple lifestyle choices - but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

What I say and what I preach is love. Love people for who they are, do good things not to please or satisfy someone else do them because it satisfies you. Live a good life because it's your only one and you want to make it worthwhile. Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

While most of you are steadfast in your views and I respect that, all I ask people take away is make your life worthwhile, don't create barriers break them down, embrace others don't turn them away. The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Hewitt

[Vort]

I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

Just curious: How could you possibly know this?

That brings me to the point that baffles me - homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes.

You say this because, as you freely admit, you're an atheist. Perceptions that homosexual activity is a bad thing stem from divine teachings.

Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

How far are you willing to take this line of reasoning? If someone is sexually attracted to children, should he be embraced and accepted for who he is and not expected to live in misery because of the narrow-minded condemnation of others? What if he enjoys sex with goats? What if he is really, really into public masturbation? Hey, it's who he is. It's part of his normal, natural sexuality, to enthusiastically masturbate in front of young girls. Shouldn't any loving person embrace him and help him not to have to live in misery by denying himself of what his body and mind deeply crave?

Our religion teaches us that we are not animals. We are subject to the weaknesses and vicissitudes of mortality, but we are not slave to them -- if we choose not to be. Just because you want to do something does not mean you must do it, or even that you should do it. So arguing for homosexuality based on physical desire is a non-starter.

The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith?

Pretend for a moment that LDS theology is absolutely true. (Just pretend.) Consider your question in light of those truths.

Does that answer your question?

Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment.

How familiar are you with LDS theology? Ours is not a theology of fear.

Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

Benjamin Franklin addressed this naive belief when he wrote, "If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?"

The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

That's a nice thought, in sort of the same way that unicorns are a nice thought. But, like unicorns, it's clearly untrue.

[Guest]

1. Despite being an Atheist I have an extremely strong belief in the importance of Love, Kindness and forgiveness. I only have one life that is why it is so important I make the most of it and live the most kind and fulfilling life possible. As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

Great, we agree here.

homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes. Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

True, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone. But homosexual behavior does. We believe that children are entitled to be born and raised by a faithful mother and father. We see more and more studies that show how children benefit best from having both a father and a mother. We also believe in families that continue beyond this life. Biologically, in a homosexual relationship, you cannot have increase (children), which is an important part of our religion. Most of all, we believe that God knows best from whence comes true happiness and growth, and that He has warned that when society moves away from His order for families, morality begins to deteriorate altogether. In a nutshell.

2. The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith?

I need God because He is my creator, and my Father. I am His child with much learning and growing to do. I need Jesus Christ to purify me of my sins, so that I can be in His presence and my Father's. Otherwise I would be overcome with shame and guilt and couldn't stand it. I don't know that I personally need Joseph Smith, but the world has benefited and will continue to benefit from his work in restoring the full gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth.

Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do,

Yes.

not because they fear punishment.

I don't think fear of punishment should be the reason, either.

I have no issue with things such as not consuming caffeine and alcohol those are simple lifestyle choices - but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

I love my Father and I want to follow Him. I trust Him to know what will give me the healthiest, happiest, most fulfilling life possible. He blesses me continually- I have many personal stories of miraculously answered prayer- and I wish to show Him my love and gratitude by trusting Him and His commandments/counsel.

What I say and what I preach is love. Love people for who they are, do good things not to please or satisfy someone else do them because it satisfies you. Live a good life because it's your only one and you want to make it worthwhile. Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

I agree. I don't think you need religion to be a good person, but it can sure help. There are some pretty rotten people who claim to have religion in their lives, and some pretty great people who don't.

While most of you are steadfast in your views and I respect that, all I ask people take away is make your life worthwhile, don't create barriers break them down, embrace others don't turn them away. The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

I can hold fast to my beliefs and also have loving relationships with people who disagree with me. It takes 2, though. And I believe that all that is good comes from God, including love, and anything that persuades us to do good is of Christ, including love. Not acknowledging them doesn't make that any less so as far as I'm concerned. We're all given the light of Christ whether we willingly name it or not.

[Guest]

Also, everything Vort said. (Dude, Vort, how do you do these multi-quote answers all the time? It's exhausting.)

[annewandering]

We dont fear God. We love Him. :) And He loves us. All of us.

[Echo2002]

How do we learn to love? We learn by example do we not? For me Christ was the ultimate example on how to show love for others.

A homosexual may not be able to choose who he or she is attracted to, but he can choose to act or not to act on that attraction. I think Vort gave some very good examples of people who have sexual attractions that are not of the norm. Should everyone be free to act on those attractions just because it may be something they were born with?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Hewitt,

I don't believe in pretending to be something I'm not either. I'm LDS because God made Himself manifest to me, and told me to go be a Mormon. Since I love God and believe He loves me, then by your own belief system, I'm doing what's right.

Furthermore, I honestly don't care one way or the other who you chose to partner with and love. The social engineeering and efforts to legislate a change in my belief, I disagree with. Go be with whoever you want and permit me the right to seek my own understanding and truth..

[skalenfehl]

Hi everyone - this is my first post here and it is nice to meet everyone. I hope I have placed this in the right subforum.

Welcome, Hewitt! It is nice to meet you as well. :)

I come here as a Homosexual Atheist who has a strong interest in Humanity and all religion. Regardless of what I am about to say I am always in favour of the right for people to follow their religion. I have a few questions for everyone here...

1. Despite being an Atheist I have an extremely strong belief in the importance of Love, Kindness and forgiveness. I only have one life that is why it is so important I make the most of it and live the most kind and fulfilling life possible. As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

I also have a strong belief in the importance of love, kindness and forgiveness. You possess attributes that many Christians struggle with. I am happy to see that you are living life to its fullest. I admire you for that. Life is too short. I know there is a God in heaven and I have a very tangible personal relationship with Him. He has given me and you and everyone else the freedom to be who they are. I really am thankful for this gift.

With this is mind I would be unhappy if I had to live my life pretending to be something I am not, it is important to me to be genuine and honest. That brings me to the point that baffles me - homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes. Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

I agree with you. We have to be true to who we are. And I strongly believe that our knowledge of who we are evolves and grows throughout our life and that knowledge is based on experiences that define us. I also strongly believe that nobody has the right to harm anyone else or to rob and deprive them of their own liberty to be who they choose. I am a very devoted and faithful member of the LDS church and have experienced Christ's tangible love and He freely gives it to those who desire and truly seek it. I would be very unhappy if I had to conform to anything else, so I can surely relate to you.

2. The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith? Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment. I have no issue with things such as not consuming caffeine and alcohol those are simple lifestyle choices - but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

What I say and what I preach is love. Love people for who they are, do good things not to please or satisfy someone else do them because it satisfies you. Live a good life because it's your only one and you want to make it worthwhile. Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

In a nutshell, we cannot come unto Christ if we do not understand who He is, why He died for us, and why we need Him more than anything else in this universe. Caffeine and alcohol are simply bits and pieces of doctrine that pertain to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I cannot express to you the love in my heart and the powerful inspiration that I receive from God to be a part of His plan, to bear one another's burdens, to be an example of what it means to follow Him and love others unconditionally and to speak the truth with boldness because truth is light and once there is light in a dark world, where once the darkness could not comprehend it, there is now understanding.

While most of you are steadfast in your views and I respect that, all I ask people take away is make your life worthwhile, don't create barriers break them down, embrace others don't turn them away. The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

Jesus Christ is Love. He died for us especially because He loves us. He became the perfect example of what unconditional love is. When you can understand why there is a God, why it is that without His sacrifice, we cannot resurrect and conquer death and be with our loved ones as He intends, then you will understand why those who truly do get it also truly love others as He loves us all. Those who do not understand this or choose to reject this can still be happy, but only in this mortal life. Speaking of breaking barriers, I challenge you to study and understand why Jesus Christ died for us. In order to understand his Atonement, we must first understand the fall of Adam and Eve and in order to understand their fall, we must understand our pre-mortal existence; who we are and why we are here. Once you understand these three very important things, you still may not agree, but at least you will know and understand why we worship a true and living God who loves each of us. I hope you enjoy your stay here and that we can learn as you have to be tolerant and loving of others.

[Faded]

Hi everyone - this is my first post here and it is nice to meet everyone. I hope I have placed this in the right subforum.

I come here as a Homosexual Atheist who has a strong interest in Humanity and all religion. Regardless of what I am about to say I am always in favour of the right for people to follow their religion. I have a few questions for everyone here...

1. Despite being an Atheist I have an extremely strong belief in the importance of Love, Kindness and forgiveness. I only have one life that is why it is so important I make the most of it and live the most kind and fulfilling life possible. As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

With this is mind I would be unhappy if I had to live my life pretending to be something I am not, it is important to me to be genuine and honest. That brings me to the point that baffles me - homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes. Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

2. The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith? Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment. I have no issue with things such as not consuming caffeine and alcohol those are simple lifestyle choices - but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

What I say and what I preach is love. Love people for who they are, do good things not to please or satisfy someone else do them because it satisfies you. Live a good life because it's your only one and you want to make it worthwhile. Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

While most of you are steadfast in your views and I respect that, all I ask people take away is make your life worthwhile, don't create barriers break them down, embrace others don't turn them away. The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

Is it just me or are you doing this:

I may have more to say later.

A man walks into an office.

Man: (Michael Palin) Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment.

(Pause)

Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Man: Thank you

Edited July 15, 2012 by Faded

[skalenfehl]

Is it just me or are you doing this:

I may have more to say later.

Great. Now you got me hooked on those Monty Python videos!

[prisonchaplain]

I hate to throw out what may be a rabbit trail, but I suggest it is possible to both love God and to have a holy fear of him...not a cowering, begrudging groveling, but rather an awed reverence and sense of being overwhelmed at God's greatness.

[skalenfehl]

I hate to throw out what may be a rabbit trail, but I suggest it is possible to both love God and to have a holy fear of him...not a cowering, begrudging groveling, but rather an awed reverence and sense of being overwhelmed at God's greatness.

To answer this, consider the pain that Christ suffered in Gethsemene that He bled from every pore to take upon Himself our sins. But if we don't apply His atoning power, then we will end up suffering the pains of our own sins and this will be our unquenchable fire. Prophets such as Isaiah cowered in Christ's presence for the simple fact that they found themselves wholly unworthy and stained from this world. From our LDS perspective I offer this:

D&C 19

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

[Faded]

So a man walks into a room full of strangers and says, "Sorry for the interuption but I'd like everyone here to know why I'm right and they're wrong."

Seems like a pretty silly thing for a first post on a forum don't you think?

Hi everyone - this is my first post here and it is nice to meet everyone. I hope I have placed this in the right subforum.

I come here as a Homosexual Atheist who has a strong interest in Humanity and all religion. Regardless of what I am about to say I am always in favour of the right for people to follow their religion. I have a few questions for everyone here...

1. Despite being an Atheist I have an extremely strong belief in the importance of Love, Kindness and forgiveness. I only have one life that is why it is so important I make the most of it and live the most kind and fulfilling life possible. As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

The scientific jury is still out on the science of how homosexuality happens. No clear evidence for or against genetic predisposition, we simply have no idea there. But from the gays I have known in my life I can accept that it is not always a conscious decision to become homosexual. Why on earth do you suppose that's so important to point out whilst introducing yourself to a group of complete strangers? Seems a rather odd way to say hello.

With this is mind I would be unhappy if I had to live my life pretending to be something I am not, it is important to me to be genuine and honest. That brings me to the point that baffles me - homosexuality does not harm anyone, any perceptions that it is a bad thing are entirely a result of culture and social attitudes. Surely any loving person would embrace and accept other people for being who they are, surely a loving person would wish other's to be happy and not have to live in misery because they have to conform to other people's opinions.

Acceptance isn't really in question. We'll agree to disagree over the moral correctness of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I'm required to hate you, demonize you or belittle you in any way.

2. The second question I would like to ask is why do you need God/ Jesus/ Joseph Smith? Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment. I have no issue with things such as not consuming caffeine and alcohol those are simple lifestyle choices - but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

What I say and what I preach is love. Love people for who they are, do good things not to please or satisfy someone else do them because it satisfies you. Live a good life because it's your only one and you want to make it worthwhile. Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

While most of you are steadfast in your views and I respect that, all I ask people take away is make your life worthwhile, don't create barriers break them down, embrace others don't turn them away. The one thing that unites people is not God, not Jesus, not a book, not rules it is Love.

You presume to know a great deal about the Church of Jesus Christ and it's members but clearly you don't know very much at all. So were you hoping to better understand us or are you here for no other reason that telling us that we're wrong about everything we believe to be true? The fact that you introduced yourself as an atheist means you haven't much use for God. What are the chances of you actually understanding something that you believe to be useless?

While I can't say for certain whether they all have websites, it's worth pointing out that you're one down and more than 30,000 Christian denominations to go. Then you can move on to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and the rest of the religions that believe homosexuality is sinful and wrong. If your message is "there's nothing wrong with homosexuality" to all those who think otherwise, I do hope you have an abundance of spare time because you've got your work cut out for you. Or have you already gone to websites of other religions with your message? If you've chatted with other faiths on the matter, how did it go anyways? I must say I'm very curious: If we just happen to be the first religion you're coming to with this discussion, I'd love to know why we've been so honored to be your first pick?

Edited July 15, 2012 by Faded

[Vort]

I hate to throw out what may be a rabbit trail, but I suggest it is possible to both love God and to have a holy fear of him...not a cowering, begrudging groveling, but rather an awed reverence and sense of being overwhelmed at God's greatness.

I think you're right, PC. The scriptures speak plainly of the "fear of God", and while that is a Hebrew figure of speech, I think the traditional meaning of "fear" has a place.

But I gather that the OP is talking about the terror of hell as a motivating factor. While for some it is that -- I'm thinking of Alma (the younger one) and the "eternal torment" he suffered -- that is not the focus of LDS theology. Indeed, today at the Redmond centennial parade (Derby Days, but Redmond is 100 this year), one parade participant was a Baptist church handing out flyers about the unspeakable suffering of the damned, so you'd better hurry up and ask Jesus to save you. This is more what I assumed the OP was talking about, and I have never heard an LDS leader preach a hellfire-and-damnation sermon such as that.

[Faded]

I hate to throw out what may be a rabbit trail, but I suggest it is possible to both love God and to have a holy fear of him...not a cowering, begrudging groveling, but rather an awed reverence and sense of being overwhelmed at God's greatness.

The Hebrew word we see translated to "fear" is a loaded word that means a great many things beyond "being scared of." Reverence, love, devotion, submission and other things are implied in many cases, especially when it is "fear of God." Faith in the NT and Fear in the OT are somewhat equivalent really. We just don't have a good word equivalent in English, especially the modern usage of the word "fear."

[prisonchaplain]

If hell scares some into heaven (or from a lower to a higher kingdom) then at least something good has come out of something meant to contain evil. Nevertheless, I agree that, for most, it is the promise of have an eternal relationship with the Creator that will draw them to a heavenly path.

[Faded]

If hell scares some into heaven (or from a lower to a higher kingdom) then at least something good has come out of something meant to contain evil. Nevertheless, I agree that, for most, it is the promise of have an eternal relationship with the Creator that will draw them to a heavenly path.

I don't disagree. Ideally we do the right things for the right reasons, but some people don't work that way and need to be driven by dread and fear.

I wonder if the OP is even serious about having a discussion. Possible and even very likely they're kicking over the proverbial anthill just to see what happens. I'm very curious to see if they actually respond to any of the posts going forward. If they do then it strikes me as a very strange way to make your first post. That's why I linked the argument clinic video -- they just remind me of the man in the video who is ever so politely asking if he can please have an argument.

[Windseeker]

The Savior said "if you love" me keep my commandments, not "if you fear me".

[Sicily510]

One must walk and preach love not say and preach that's just talking the talk.

[Backroads]

I've yet to meet anyone who is sincerely Christian who is so out of fear. I've never had anyone tell me that was the case.

I'm pretty sure that's what atheists say to make themselves feel better. Because it's too hard to actually ask a Christian.

[Hewitt]

So a man walks into a room full of strangers and says, "Sorry for the interuption but I'd like everyone here to know why I'm right and they're wrong."

Seems like a pretty silly thing for a first post on a forum don't you think?

The scientific jury is still out on the science of how homosexuality happens. No clear evidence for or against genetic predisposition, we simply have no idea there. But from the gays I have known in my life I can accept that it is not always a conscious decision to become homosexual. Why on earth do you suppose that's so important to point out whilst introducing yourself to a group of complete strangers? Seems a rather odd way to say hello.

Acceptance isn't really in question. We'll agree to disagree over the moral correctness of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I'm required to hate you, demonize you or belittle you in any way.

You presume to know a great deal about the Church of Jesus Christ and it's members but clearly you don't know very much at all. So were you hoping to better understand us or are you here for no other reason that telling us that we're wrong about everything we believe to be true? The fact that you introduced yourself as an atheist means you haven't much use for God. What are the chances of you actually understanding something that you believe to be useless?

While I can't say for certain whether they all have websites, it's worth pointing out that you're one down and more than 30,000 Christian denominations to go. Then you can move on to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and the rest of the religions that believe homosexuality is sinful and wrong. If your message is "there's nothing wrong with homosexuality" to all those who think otherwise, I do hope you have an abundance of spare time because you've got your work cut out for you. Or have you already gone to websites of other religions with your message? If you've chatted with other faiths on the matter, how did it go anyways? I must say I'm very curious: If we just happen to be the first religion you're coming to with this discussion, I'd love to know why we've been so honored to be your first pick?

Well I personally think it's a little rude to patronise me on the way I stated my question. It seem's to be a British trait to apologise for thing's before any wrong has been committed. I stated I was an Atheist and a Homosexual at the outset because it has helped to shape my way of thinking. You are correct I do not know a great deal about the LDS church if I did I would not feel the need to question you. I have had discussions of people of other religion's in fact I have them all the time so don't feel to honoured.

From my experience actually many people of the religions you have just listed do not believe Homosexuality is sinful and wrong, in fact I know some very religious homosexuals. That is not to say that there are not many people against it there are - I just can't grasp my head around why so many religions preach love and peace yet they say that someone will go to hell for being something that is not their choice.

In regards to what other members have said, I am not proposing a political message and am not proposing legislation. I had the fortune to be raised by both a mother and father and I think it is important that people have that. Hence why I am against gay adoption. However I think it is preferable for a child to be brought up by a loving gay couple than by an abusive mother and father.

Vort has equated homosexuality to having sex with goats and pedophilia. If you really think that is the case then I have nothing to say - but I hope people of all faiths pray for you. Obviously you have to draw a line somewhere - and I would draw that line when other people begin to get harmed.

Eowyn has said that she believes that reproducing is an important part of the religion. If that is the case where do you draw the line? Why not have 30 children? As another poster has said we are not animals so why should we be forced to 'breed.'

Of course everyone is right in saying that it is a choice to act on homosexual feeling's no one is being forced. But it is no different for straight people, they choose to act on their feeling's. But how you can criticise a loving and caring relationship I do not understand.

In regards to being an atheist it is not due to disagreement with the overall morals most religions teach and it is nothing to do with my homosexuality. I simply do not see enough evidence, I am sure Jesus was a historical figure and he developed a very powerful philosophy. However that is where I stop believing the Bible for me is just a fictional book, no different from a Greek myth in terms of how the story was developed. I see a clear path for my life without a God, I do not feel the need for one. I see the importance of love and kindness - they are vital for a strong society.

I often have religious people say how can you go through life thinking it has no purpose and meaning. Whilst it sound's like a paradox I find meaning and purpose from my lack of meaning and purpose. It mean's I have a clean slate and that I have the freedom to make the most of my life and to make it worthwhile.

[Just_A_Guy]

Vort has equated homosexuality to having sex with goats and pedophilia.

That is a gross misrepresentation of what Vort said. His point was that just because you are biologically wired towards a certain type of sexual behavior, doesn't mean that you are justified in engaging in said behavior or that abstinence from said behavior is impossible.

Eowyn has said that she believes that reproducing is an important part of the religion. If that is the case where do you draw the line? Why not have 30 children? As another poster has said we are not animals so why should we be forced to 'breed.'

I don't see that she said anything of the sort.

If you want to be understood, try making an honest effort to understand.

[Echo2002]

I want to know why some homosexuals want to force heterosexuals into believing that how they are living is right, and that it's perfectly normal?

It's been my personal experience that when someone tries so hard to make others believe that what they are doing is right, they usually feel deep down that it is wrong.

God, mother nature, or evolution (whatever you want to believe) did not intend humans or any other animal species to be homosexual. If you ask any Biology professor what the purpose of life is they will say to procreate. Now for some reason some people and animals are born with homosexual attractions. The animals who are born with that just die off since they are unable to procreate, humans on the other hand have a choice.

[Soulsearcher]

I want to know why some homosexuals want to force heterosexuals into believing that how they are living is right, and that it's perfectly normal?

It's been my personal experience that when someone tries so hard to make others believe that what they are doing is right, they usually feel deep down that it is wrong.

God, mother nature, or evolution (whatever you want to believe) did not intend humans or any other animal species to be homosexual. If you ask any Biology professor what the purpose of life is they will say to procreate. Now for some reason some people and animals are born with homosexual attractions. The animals who are born with that just die off since they are unable to procreate, humans on the other hand have a choice.

I'll take a stab at that one.

One of the reasons that you find homosexuals trying to convince the majority that how they live is right for them and normal for them is because for so long there's been a strong opposition to them even really existing. Look through the recent approach( last 100 or plus years) and see the attitude directed towards homosexuals. We have a culture of people who follow the exact same desire you do when you find a life mate, and yet they were forced into the shadows always living in fear of discovery or worse. They understand their lives, feelings and desires better than those who were to judge them yet are being told they know nothing or are completely wrong about their lives. You actually see this in most any group that thinks they understand better than others about what they see as the truth, constantly reaching out trying to have others convert to their way of thinking or at least understand enough to be non-threatening. Why does the church have such a strong emphasis on "the one true church" why the strong focus on missionaries? The Church and it's members think they know better or "the truth" about something and want to spread the word. Equate whats going on now with the church after it settled in Utah, it had a lot of risk and hardship leading up to that, and then as it settled there were a few rocky times but all of a sudden it started finding it's haven and finding more stability and was able to increase it's efforts and become more vocal to the point it's at today. Homosexuals are kind of in the same place. they've always known things about themselves no one cared about listening to because they always knew better and really didn't care about those low life perverts. Now things have gradually change and homosexuals are starting to find their voice and a bit more of a place they don't have to be confined to that closet anymore just to survive. You might not like or believe the message any more than a catholic will like the book of mormon usually, but just because someone doesn't like or think it's true doesn't always mean it can't have some truth to it.

[Hewitt]

I want to know why some homosexuals want to force heterosexuals into believing that how they are living is right, and that it's perfectly normal?

It's been my personal experience that when someone tries so hard to make others believe that what they are doing is right, they usually feel deep down that it is wrong.

God, mother nature, or evolution (whatever you want to believe) did not intend humans or any other animal species to be homosexual. If you ask any Biology professor what the purpose of life is they will say to procreate. Now for some reason some people and animals are born with homosexual attractions. The animals who are born with that just die off since they are unable to procreate, humans on the other hand have a choice.

I don't promote forcing people to do anything. All I am promoting here is love and tolerance. And I am afraid homosexuality is perfectly normal it is observed in thousands of species. There are millions of homosexuals in the world many many more than are members of this church.

Whether you think there is a purpose to homosexuality from God or evolution what is absolute is that it exists. Of course if everyone was homosexual the species would become extinct - so we have evolved for the majority of people to wish to reproduce. But for a species to flourish not everyone has to procreate. There is no such thing as a super-human everyone is programmed in a different way from their appearance, to the way the chemicals in their brain interact. People do not choose who they are attracted to - it is no different from choosing how tall you are or the colour of your hair.

What I want to know is what you propose. Should I pretend to be straight and attracted to women, lie get married and have children and be unhappy? Should I be single and live a lonely life? Don't you preach the importance of loving relationships? Should I dedicate my live trying to overcome what my body is biologically incline to feel?

I was looking at another thread on this forum and someone said their son was Gay and someone responded they would go to hell because of it. I thought Mormon's do not believe in original sin but I must be wrong. Being Gay is not a choice, if it is fundamentally sinful therefore every gay person born effectively has original sin.