Adultery preferable to pornography?

[Dravin]

You're comparing intentional pornography use to sins of omission.

Yes I am, because for the purposes of your suggested definition they apply. Do you feel that any repeated sin of commission, to avoid your omission distinction, qualifies as an addiction for a member of the Church?

Edited August 16, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

Can it also be never? Do you feel it is possible for someone to always be in control of their porn use? "never do it at work." "limit myself to 30 minutes/week." and so on? The observation I'm trying to make is that our general discourse on porn doesn't really acknowledge any middle ground between "addicted" and "complete abstinence from porn." Could this contribute to the addiction? If you believe that addiction is "inevitable" once you've started using, does it become a self-fulfilling prophecy once you get started?

If they can stop but decide not to, then sure, they're not addicted. They just have a different moral compass. That is not an addiction problem.

[Guest]

Yes I am, because for the purposes of your suggested definition they apply. I'll give a couple other examples though. Is a member who listens to inappropriate music addicted to it? Is a member who drinks a beer once a week automatically an alcoholic?

Addiction is realized when the person cannot stop even if he wants to. If the person can stop but decides not to for some reason, it's not an addiction, it's a difference in moral compass.

[MrShorty]

You're comparing intentional pornography use to sins of omission. They're not really in the same category.

Some sins of commission, then:

lying, backbiting, gossiping, fault finding, swearing, sleeping during sacrament meeting, murmuring, arguing, getting angry, sluffing Sunday School, and so on.

I agree with Dravin, I don't think we want to label and "repeat" sin as an addiction, because that will make us all addicts to something (and probably several somethings).

[Guest]

I wasn't making a statement either way, I was just asking a question.

If I had any statement to make related to the question, though, it is that certainly and obviously members of the Church ought to hold themselves to a higher standard than the world.

I think I might still object to McShorty's comparisons. Those are bad habits and things we ought to improve upon, for certain, but I still think pornography is likely a more insidious, spiritually damaging, relationship-destroying, and intentional sin than any of those things. I'll give it some thought, though.

[Dravin]

I wasn't making a statement either way, I was just asking a question.

If I had any statement to make related to the question, though, it is that certainly and obviously members of the Church ought to hold themselves to a higher standard than the world.

Most certainly. However that standard isn't as long as it is not an addiction it's okay. Like I said previously, even if pornography was categorically non-addictive that doesn't make it acceptable. Don't mistake 'porn use isn't always an addiction' to be some sort of statement about the acceptability of porn use.

I think I might still object to McShorty's comparisons. Those are bad habits and things we ought to improve upon, for certain, but I still think pornography is likely a more insidious, spiritually damaging, relationship-destroying, and intentional sin than any of those things. I'll give it some thought, though.

Here is the thing though, it can be all those things without being an addiction. Really, the difference between similar amounts of porn use when it's an addiction for someone versus not being an addiction for someone is when it comes to repentance (it's easier to repent if you can just stop instead of fighting a compulsion).

Edited August 16, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

Most certainly. However that standard isn't as long as it is not an addiction it's okay. like I said previously, even if pornography was categorically non-addictive that doesn't make it acceptable. Don't mistake 'porn use isn't always an addiction' to be some sort of statement about the acceptability of porn use.

Here is the thing though, it can be all those things without being an addiction. One almost gets the sense from some of the comments that, 'It's bad therefore it must be an addiction.' People can partake of spiritually destructive things without them being an addiction. Really, the only difference similar amounts and subject of porn viewing not being an addiction for someone versus not being an addiction for someone is when it comes to repentance (it's easier to repent if you can just stop instead of fighting a compulsion).

Ahh, okay. Thanks so much for clarifying, Dravin. I'm not feeling well and I think my reading comprehension is extra off. I was getting a bit upset because it felt like you guys were saying that pornography wasn't any bigger a deal than not reading your scriptures every day or gossiping. My husband and I are pretty big advocates against pornography and I worry so much for my son that it was distressing to see men who I think and assume to be good Priesthood holders minimizing its use. Sounds like more my own issue and bad listening. I apologize.

[MrShorty]

I guess as this thread started with a comparison of sins, it is still natural to line all of those sins up on the continuum of "badness." So, let's bring this back to Vort's original question. which would you rather be married to: unrepentant porn user (who is not addicted and controls when and how much he uses but is not going to give it up entirely) or the unrepentant adulterer (who could quit the relationship but won't)? Or married to: a repentant porn user who has agreed that he should quit and is quitting or the repentant adulterer who decides to break off the relationship?

Maybe it's not a fair comparison (because women view men's porn use differently than men view women's porn use) but given the unpleasant "lesser of two evils" choice: I'd much prefer that my wife be reading 50 shades of gray and insist that she is going to read the entire trilogy over my objections than to have my wife sleeping with "christian gray" and refuse to break off the relationship.

[Windseeker]

Can it also be never? Do you feel it is possible for someone to always be in control of their porn use? "never do it at work." "limit myself to 30 minutes/week." and so on? The observation I'm trying to make is that our general discourse on porn doesn't really acknowledge any middle ground between "addicted" and "complete abstinence from porn." Could this contribute to the addiction? If you believe that addiction is "inevitable" once you've started using, does it become a self-fulfilling prophecy once you get started?

The genius of this sin is that it literally seems to harness the different natural weaknesses of both men and women to erode away the love the passion the trust that are the foundation of marriage.

When it comes to porn viewing, no restraint or control or lines-not-crossed seems to hold much value in the eyes of the innocent spouse. In the end someone who has a once a month 10 minute fall to temptation, to someone in their basement looking at porn daily for hours on end, are virtually indistinguishable. Nor does the type or nature of the porn being viewed seem to matter. Efforts to garner support, encouragement, and understanding and minimize the pain to spouses thru explanations regarding the nature of the sin or Battles won vs Battles lost appear futile and seem to have the opposite effect.

Here is an odd thought.

Would porn be as big of an epidemic if it weren’t for men who exercised some measure of self-restraint and fidelity to their marriages? How’s that for an interesting paradox? Perhaps one day Porn will fail as the real thing becomes more easily accessible and heaven forbid, acceptable. We already see a decline in those who are willing to marry.

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I've tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

...

Robert Frost

[beefche]

Here is an odd thought.

Would porn be as big of an epidemic if it weren’t for men who exercised some measure of self-restraint and fidelity to their marriages? How’s that for an interesting paradox? Perhaps one day Porn will fail as the real thing becomes more easily accessible and heaven forbid, acceptable. We already see a decline in those who are willing to marry.

What? What do you mean by that first sentence? It sounds like you are saying it's men who show restraint and fidelity who are the cause of the epidemic of porn? I don't understand what you mean there.

And, are you saying that the reason people are delaying marriage is because of porn?

[Windseeker]

What? What do you mean by that first sentence? It sounds like you are saying it's men who show restraint and fidelity who are the cause of the epidemic of porn? I don't understand what you mean there.

And, are you saying that the reason people are delaying marriage is because of porn?

Can someone quote me the famous line from Cool Hand Luke?

My fault beefche, I dont have time now but wiil try later to clarify, if at all possible.

[annewandering]

what we have here is a failure to communicate. ty ken.

[Just_A_Guy]

What? What do you mean by that first sentence? It sounds like you are saying it's men who show restraint and fidelity who are the cause of the epidemic of porn? I don't understand what you mean there.

And, are you saying that the reason people are delaying marriage is because of porn?

I think what he's saying is that often, it's some (admittedly damaged) sense of "restraint and fidelity" that keeps porn users from devolving into full-fledged adultery.

Re the OP, I would respectfully suggest that most women who actually think that a husband's adultery would be preferable to a husband's pornography use, are probably women who have not experienced a spouse's adultery and deep down, tend to take for granted that their spouse wouldn't actually go "that far".

My pornography problems hurt my wife deeply. It's something I'll always regret, and something I pray I'll never minimize or repeat. But at the end of the day, my family's income is not diminished by my having to pay child support to another woman; and my wife doesn't have to live in fear that I'm going to give her a venereal disease.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Windseeker]

What? What do you mean by that first sentence? It sounds like you are saying it's men who show restraint and fidelity who are the cause of the epidemic of porn? I don't understand what you mean there.

And, are you saying that the reason people are delaying marriage is because of porn?

It's simply an observation, not sure if it's totally accurate. It's a thought I had based off of reading the FAIR response to "Why does Utah lead the United States in subscriptions to online adult entertainment? "

Utah/Statistical claims/Pornography use in Utah - FAIRMormon

In it they mention the following:

Subscriptions are more prevalent in states where surveys indicate conservative positions on religion, gender roles, and sexuality.

Subscriptions are also more prevalent in states where more people agree that "I have old-fashioned values about family and marriage"

I'm suggesting that it's men who value their marriages and don't give fully into their natural urges who rather than satisifying those urges with Adultery do so with Pornography. Where men don't value their marriages they simply pursue extra marrital affairs (the real deal) or they are polyamorous.

With regards to those who live without family values, the fantasy is reality and there is little need for pornography (fantasy).

So in a sense a portion of the epidemic is due to restraint or boundries based in morality and traditional values.

I'm getting the feeling that some just don't get the fact that most men would prefer the reality to the fantasy. Vort stated it from the very beginning.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Windseeker

[MorningStar]

Then why do so many men look at porn and commit adultery?

I think if a person uses porn before marriage, they are most likely going to use it during marriage. I don't think it has to do with preventing fornication or adultery. A lot of guys think once they are getting the real thing, they won't "need" porn anymore.

[Windseeker]

Then why do so many men look at porn and commit adultery?

...I don't think they do it at the same time. But yes it's possible that a man can release the flood gates to his natural man and be with his wife one night, looking at porn the next, then committing adultry the next night.

I think if a person uses porn before marriage, they are most likely going to use it during marriage.

I agree. It's like my brother when he gets stressed out, he wishes he could have a beer. But he doesn't. Certainly the temptation is greater for sure.

I don't think it has to do with preventing fornication or adultery. A lot of guys think once they are getting the real thing, they won't "need" porn anymore.

Simply put it's male nature.

What your missing is that mens nature is not monogamous. Mens values are monogamous.

You don't think I look at Christie Brinkley and wonder how a man can be married to her and have a $3000.00 a month porn problem? But I know exactly why.

All good men wish to be like Paul Newman, learn to control their appetites and respond to questions about monogomy by saying "Why Go Out For Hamburgers When I Have Steak At Home?".

Some have it harder then others. Some resist the temptation, Some go to pornography and never go further, some go straight to Adultry, some go to harder and harder pornography and nothing seems to satisfy them, some go from pornography to Adultry, some go from pornography to much much worse things (think Ted Bundy). It's all a matter of restraint.

Good men fight the fight and hold to their values. They see the edge of the cliff and the void beneath and cling to their wives and families.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Windseeker

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway, the bolded part above can be replaced with "With adultery" as well. And more often than not, adultery is not a clean break where you can focus on picking up pieces and such. More often than not, it is a repetitive behavior and even when it is not, trust is forever compromised.

I'm not saying this is in actuality how it really is. I'm saying this is how it feels and this is why people say "I'd rather have adultery."

[Misshalfway]

It appears there are depths to this whole pornography thing that I have never considered.

Honestly, I am sorry I brought the subject up. Shame on me. I would be happy if the mods would just make this thread go away.

Hm. I wonder if this is what spouses of porn addicts think once they realize the depth and breadth of the problem.

I also think may be why it's hard for spouses to talk about the problem to others. If you talk about adultery, at least everyone gets it.

[Misshalfway]

Sorry, I gotta say more stuff.

I think it's important to differentiate between the seriousness of any given sexual sin and how the person or the spouse might experience that behavior. Just because a person commits a serious sin with the church doesn't necessarily correlate to emotional devastation. I know folks who have had issues with both adultery and porn addiction and have coped pretty well. I have seen cases where a man slept with over 100 women and his wife still stayed. I also know of a spouse who suffers ptsd over her husbands occasional mbing.

Also, adultery (or sex with a non-spouse) and porn addiction are not mutually exclusive. Sex addicts can use porn only or use porn in conjunction with a whole host of various sexual activities. Addiction tends to escalate. Just do the math.

There are lots of kinds of adultery too. Ones that are about an emotional bond and ones that are about convenient, non emotionally based connections.

So...maybe our comparisons here are overly simplistic. At the end of the day, if it happens to you...it sucks!! No matter what "it" is.

[Misshalfway]

.

Simply put it's male nature.

What your missing is that mens nature is not monogamous. Mens values are monogamous.

You don't think I look at Christie Brinkley and wonder how a man can be married to her and have a $3000.00 a month porn problem? But I know exactly why.

All good men wish to be like Paul Newman, learn to control their appetites and respond to questions about monogomy by saying "Why Go Out For Hamburgers When I Have Steak At Home?".

Some have it harder then others. Some resist the temptation, Some go to pornography and never go further, some go straight to Adultry, some go to harder and harder pornography and nothing seems to satisfy them, some go from pornography to Adultry, some go from pornography to much much worse things (think Ted Bundy). It's all a matter of restraint.

Good men fight the fight and hold to their values. They see the edge of the cliff and the void beneath and cling to their wives and families.

There's lots of good stuff here. I do, however, think there is more to it than just an issue of biology and restraint. Why else would good men (and women) go against their values routinely even when they know and have a testimony of better behavior? And men aren't the only one's sleeping around. I mean they are sleeping with somebody. Women are acting out too.

Sex is at it's core, a bonding behavior. It bonds us with whatever it is we act out with. Whether its a person, a picture, a perpetrator, or an act. When we do it, we not only get a dopamine hit, we also ignite the oxytocin in the brain which is the bonding hormone...the one mother's feel when the breast feed their babies. The one young women feel when that boy they like kisses them. It's part of the satisfaction men feel when they are sexually intimate with the woman they love.

With sexual indiscretions and with compulsive sex of all kinds, there seems to me a persistent strain of maladaptive attachment seeking. Whether it's the guy who hoards his porn as if he might lose his most precious lover/parent/friend, or the woman who exchanges sex to feel loved and wanted, it's all the same. An inability to solicit and maintain healthy, satisfying human attachments and to tolerate the vulnerability that makes such posible.

I don't think men are any less monogamous than women. I don't think they go to porn or adultery because they just can't control themselves. (Well, for some this becomes true. ) I think they get succored by curiosity and novelty and they go back cause it's tactically easy and emotionally sterile. Dealing with a real human in a committed relationship over time is much harder to predict and control. As long as the person is the pursuer and dictator of the relationship, it's a high satisfaction low risk scenario. Doesn't matter if its adultery or addiction. Same thing at it's core.

[Misshalfway]

If a person were to look at it three or four times and then never again, I don't think she would call them an addict. Sorry if my wording was imperfect. The point is, it takes very little exposure to start a big problem.

I don't think that one can measure "when" a person becomes an addict.

I think it's a line upon line, waxing process. We can wax strong in iniquity or wax strong in the faith of God. The corruption comes in process.

I am simply amazed, even appalled, that any LDS woman would think pornography viewing somehow worse than actual physical adultery.

I can understand this. It's a little frustrating to me too when people equate porn viewing with porn addiction, and with adultery too.

If there is more to the porn use than just a look here and there....say if there is long binging and mbing involved, it can be more threatening to the relationship. I often want to ask husbands who do this to imagine their wife doing it and then describe how that would feel. Imagine their wife looking at larger male body parts when she was sad or bored...or maybe when her orgasm wasn't that great one week. Imagine her out trolling the internet for other/younger/hotter men and then dismissing it's importance. I wonder what husband's would say if they got a good solid taste of what this feels like.

For those who are repetitively using, regardless of the compulsivity, it might as well be an affair. He/she is NOT having sex with their spouse in those moments. They are having sex with someone/something else. And it's like they are not fully committed or engaged in the relationship. Some have called it a "competing attachment". That phrase makes a lot of sense to me. It's like dating a girl but having her undecided about whether or not she really wants to be with you....whether or not she's done shopping for something better than you.

I will say this.....I hope bishops and SP's who hold this view think twice before taking it into interviews. I hope they have enough wisdom to hold off long enough to listen compassionately to another person's pain. They might just learn something.

For those who have experienced porn use in it's varying forms and who wake to the painful realizations of it's effects, they know that it's not the actual act of looking at a naked picture that really does the damage. It's the effects of it. It's how this activity renders the person in terms of emotional availability. It's how that person treats you. The narcissism alone is a crazy maker.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Ok. I'm going for the record. How many posts can I add to a thread before someone interrupts the streak?

:D:D

[Vort]

Six.

[Just_A_Guy]

Unless you can convince a mod to delete any interruptions from other posters.

[Misshalfway]

Where's the request form?