Q/A with Glenn Beck!

[phi39]

A few weeks ago, Glenn Beck (yes I'm a fan) opened an email address to take questions on Mormonism and did a show addressing the various issues outsiders take. I didn't see the show ('starving' students can't afford the subscription) but I read the article, and it was good stuff. I have a feeling however, that his inbox is backed up till the Millennium.

So if you guys don't mind I'll ask you the same question (full disclosure I'm thinking about using this to guide my research for a paper in the future). I started this way:

Would a Mormon couple who achieved exaltation continue to have spirit children into eternity? If so, would those children need to live mortal lives on a future sinful world in order to have a chance at exaltation themselves?

I'm expecting answer to be "yes," to both questions in light of D/C 132 and 2 Nephi 2.

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

[applepansy]

A few weeks ago, Glenn Beck (yes I'm a fan) opened an email address to take questions on Mormonism and did a show addressing the various issues outsiders take. I didn't see the show ('starving' students can't afford the subscription) but I read the article, and it was good stuff. I have a feeling however, that his inbox is backed up till the Millennium.

So if you guys don't mind I'll ask you the same question (full disclosure I'm thinking about using this to guide my research for a paper in the future). I started this way:

Would a Mormon couple who achieved exaltation continue to have spirit children into eternity? If so, would those children need to live mortal lives on a future sinful world in order to have a chance at exaltation themselves?

I'm expecting answer to be "yes," to both questions in light of D/C 132 and 2 Nephi 2.

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

Which death are you talking about? I'm assuming mortal death and not spiritual.

Yes there will come a time when all those who are mortal will not have to face a mortal death again. Does that mean our spirit children won't have to experience and end to mortality? Nope. Its part of the Plan of Salvation. Mortal Death is a doorway to the eternities.

Spiritual death is another subject.

[Anddenex]

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

I would agree with your first assessment, and then would disagree with your next answer.

Death is no more to those who have lived, died, and resurrected. Death, true death, is the separation of both body and spirit. Upon being resurrected, my body and spirit will never be separated again. Thus, in my life, "death [is] no more."

In connection to your first question, we get the idea that life is one eternal round. More spirit children will be created, more spirit children will need to earn a body, and then die, and be resurrected. As a result for them, death will be apart of their lives as it is ours. However after their resurrection, death again will be no more.

I honestly don't feel any tension from questions which are speculative in nature. They are fun to ponder though.

For example, our spirit heirs, will Christ be their Savior, or will there be another? No tension in this question, but interesting to ponder, nonetheless.

[Traveler]

A few weeks ago, Glenn Beck (yes I'm a fan) opened an email address to take questions on Mormonism and did a show addressing the various issues outsiders take. I didn't see the show ('starving' students can't afford the subscription) but I read the article, and it was good stuff. I have a feeling however, that his inbox is backed up till the Millennium.

So if you guys don't mind I'll ask you the same question (full disclosure I'm thinking about using this to guide my research for a paper in the future). I started this way:

Would a Mormon couple who achieved exaltation continue to have spirit children into eternity? If so, would those children need to live mortal lives on a future sinful world in order to have a chance at exaltation themselves?

I'm expecting answer to be "yes," to both questions in light of D/C 132 and 2 Nephi 2.

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

Our doctrine is that all mankind are in every sense children of G-d and by design have a divine nature that became corrupted through the fall of Adam and a mortal existence. We believe that G-d intends to replicate all his attributes in his children. G-d has given in partnership the power to mankind to create new human life and that the family is vital and an eternal relationship.

Specific concepts concerning "spiritual" offspring are speculations that have valid possibilities but are not 100% verified - This is why our dis-tractors target extreme positions on such points hoping to create confusion.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

I would agree that death will be defeated once and for all with respect to the world John was seeing, and the inhabitants thereof. I would further posit that for any inhabited world created by God, at some point that world and its inhabitants will progress to the point where death has no more power over them.

I would not go so far as to suggest that John was stating that the concept of death will have been completely eliminated or that someday there will be no place, anywhere in the universe where death is not a possibility. It is, as has been pointed out here, a requisite part of the Plan of Salvation as Mormons understand it.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Blackmarch]

A few weeks ago, Glenn Beck (yes I'm a fan) opened an email address to take questions on Mormonism and did a show addressing the various issues outsiders take. I didn't see the show ('starving' students can't afford the subscription) but I read the article, and it was good stuff. I have a feeling however, that his inbox is backed up till the Millennium.

So if you guys don't mind I'll ask you the same question (full disclosure I'm thinking about using this to guide my research for a paper in the future). I started this way:

Would a Mormon couple who achieved exaltation continue to have spirit children into eternity? If so, would those children need to live mortal lives on a future sinful world in order to have a chance at exaltation themselves?

I'm expecting answer to be "yes," to both questions in light of D/C 132 and 2 Nephi 2.

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

yes death will be defeated once and for all. everyone will go through a physical death of some sort once (if at all), and/or a full seperation from God should they so make such an action as to merit it, once.

the catch is that it happens at different times for different individuals.

[phi39]

Thank you all for your answers! You have been clear and concise!

For an evangelical like me it is somewhat startling to hear you acknowledge a probability that death will recur after Rev. 21, and that you seem to be "okay" with that.

You also read Rev. 21 as if it says "death will be no more for us" vs. "death will be no more." Of course, we are starting from different assumptions: you read our creation as being a part of a larger context of multiple (infinite?) creations, and I count this creation as the entire context.

About death being a part of the plan of salvation I agree. If God allows evil (and in turn death) to exist, it is for His ultimate good purpose of conforming us to the image of Christ and allows us to go from knowing Him as Father, to knowing Him as Savior. I would never give that up, not even if I were given the chance to change the past.

So as a follow up to the previous questions, my issue is not with the existence of evil, sin and death, but with the promise of Rev. 21 being nullified.

It not only says that "death will be no more" but also that "the former things have passed away," and in verse 5 God is "making all things new." In other words, the way things will be going forward after Rev. 21 will not be like the way things were to get there.

Also, I do not believe that your view, if true, actually frees you as individuals or humanity as a whole from death. Even though you yourselves will not die, you will experience the pain and mourning that will come with the deaths of your future children. And in the sense of experiencing separation from them, whether temporarily or in some cases eternally, you will experience that kind of death countless more times.

I say all this because I would appreciate a response to learn how you process these things, but also I cannot hide my evangelistic concern for your sakes. The thought of this kind of a future makes my heart heavy for you!

But imagine: what if death were truly defeated in the most complete way? What if all we know about the New Creation is that all creation will be free and completely new? What if all we know is that we will be with our beloved God and serve Him? Beyond that, who knows what is in store? That future would be entirely open, a mystery and an adventure! The truest happy ending you've ever heard of!

[Just_A_Guy]

So as a follow up to the previous questions, my issue is not with the existence of evil, sin and death, but with the promise of Rev. 21 being nullified.

It not only says that "death will be no more" but also that "the former things have passed away," and in verse 5 God is "making all things new." In other words, the way things will be going forward after Rev. 21 will not be like the way things were to get there.

As a Mormon I would argue that Revelation 21:1 can be read as limiting the scope of these things to the new heaven and the [new] earth; and within that sphere, verse 4 is absolutely correct.

Your assertion that "the way things will be going forward . . . will not be like the way things were to get there", IMHO, proves too much. If "the way things were to get" to heaven involves accepting God, loving Him, and worshiping Him, does it necessarily follow that once we get to heaven we will no longer accept, love, or worship God? Surely not. Many things will indeed change; but at least some things (including, I daresay, God Himself, and the way He saves souls) will remain the same.

Also, I do not believe that your view, if true, actually frees you as individuals or humanity as a whole from death. Even though you yourselves will not die, you will experience the pain and mourning that will come with the deaths of your future children. And in the sense of experiencing separation from them, whether temporarily or in some cases eternally, you will experience that kind of death countless more times.

Remember, Mormons don't believe in the "big sleep" idea of death. We believe that the soul retains its consciousness between death and resurrection. "[T]he spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from [the] mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life." Alma 40:11. So if a resurrected Mormon creates children, who then are sent to an earth and die at the end of their mortal experience--that "death" is not an alienation, from the standpoint of the parent. It's a homecoming.

Now, Mormons also talk about something called "spiritual death", which generically means separation of man from God. John cannot be referring to a "spiritual death", though, because the end of "spiritual death" would mean that eventually every single person ever created would ultimately return to the Father's presence. Mormonism's view of salvation is pretty universalistic, but not that universalistic. And your own previous post hints that you, too, believe that there are some people (to wit: Mormons) who will not be reconciled to God in the eternities.

But imagine: what if death were truly defeated in the most complete way?

Death in and of itself is not a boogeyman to Mormons. Its only real pain lies in the separation it causes from our loved ones and the temporary loss of the bodies with which God has blessed us; and as Mormons we believe that through Christ Jesus, God has indeed provided a way for those inconveniences to be overcome once and for all.

[phi39]

Just_A_Guy;700115]

As a Mormon I would argue that Revelation 21:1 can be read as limiting the scope of these things to the new heaven and the [new] earth; and within that sphere, verse 4 is absolutely correct.

This is just our different views of the universe and is a whole different subject I think. You believe that there are other new heaven/earths out there in the (multi?)universe because you believe in the other LDS scriptures, and of course I do not. I think that's where that conversation would stop. We just don't have common ground there.

Your assertion that "the way things will be going forward . . . will not be like the way things were to get there", IMHO, proves too much. If "the way things were to get" to heaven involves accepting God, loving Him, and worshiping Him, does it necessarily follow that once we get to heaven we will no longer accept, love, or worship God? Surely not. Many things will indeed change; but at least some things (including, I daresay, God Himself, and the way He saves souls) will remain the same.

Clarification: I'd say we actually agree here! But I think the passage is talking about something else. It lists death, mourning, etc., and then says "the former things have passed away." All those bad things were part of the salvation story, death was part of the road to heaven, but they won't be anymore. The text is certainly not saying love and worship will not continue, but I am sure that even those things will not be the same.

Not sure what IMHO stands for.

Remember, Mormons don't believe in the "big sleep" idea of death. ... So if a resurrected Mormon creates children, who then are sent to an earth and die at the end of their mortal experience--that "death" is not an alienation, from the standpoint of the parent. It's a homecoming. ...

Yes, evangelicals do not believe in big sleep either: to be absent from here is to be present with the Lord. But remember Jesus who cried at death even when he knew that in the next five minutes he would raise Lazarus. And aren't unbelievers spiritually dead at this very moment as they go through life? I think Paul would say so (Eph. 2:1-3). Also, if that future exalted Mormon has a three-kingdom system in heaven with Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial levels, won't that also cause a degree of separation? And finally there is eternal/spiritual death in outer darkness. I do not think your system protects you from any of these pains and reasons to mourn that come from death. If that is the case, then the promise of Rev 21 is made void for you individually.

... as Mormons we believe that through Christ Jesus, God has indeed provided a way for those inconveniences [the separations caused by death] to be overcome once and for all.

I do not think Jesus ever wept over an inconvenience. Yes, death is no boogeyman, it is the last enemy to be defeated (1 Cor. 15:26)! I do not think you can say "death will be defeated once and for all" like I can. My best wishes to you my friend!

[john doe]

Just_A_Guy;700115]

Not sure what IMHO stands for.

In My Humble Opinion.

[phi39]

(IMHO) = In My Humble Opinion.

Ah, got it. thx!

[Just_A_Guy]

Just_A_Guy;700115]

This is just our different views of the universe and is a whole different subject I think. You believe that there are other new heaven/earths out there in the (multi?)universe because you believe in the other LDS scriptures, and of course I do not. I think that's where that conversation would stop. We just don't have common ground there.

Agreed.

Clarification: I'd say we actually agree here! But I think the passage is talking about something else. It lists death, mourning, etc., and then says "the former things have passed away." All those bad things were part of the salvation story, death was part of the road to heaven, but they won't be anymore. The text is certainly not saying love and worship will not continue, but I am sure that even those things will not be the same.

That's certainly one interpretation. I merely assert that to a Mormon, it is not the necessary interpretation. In our view of the afterlife, we foresee no fear of separation from God or the bodies He has given us; and certainly no physically pain or suffering as we experience it here. Death continues to exist only in two senses: first, as far as we know, we will be eternally deprived of the company of those whom we term "sons of perdition" - what you would call the "damned", which we believe is likely to be a relatively small subset of the people God created. Second, for that subset of the saved who also join God in His work of creating new children, the plan for those new children will include their being temporarily subject to death.

But remember Jesus who cried at death even when he knew that in the next five minutes he would raise Lazarus.

I honestly don't see how that changes anything. We don't know why Jesus wept. Perhaps because of his temporary separation from Lazarus, but perhaps merely as a show of empathy with Lazarus' suffering sisters. Or perhaps mourning the unbelief of followers who apparently at that point did not believe Jesus had power over death.

And aren't unbelievers spiritually dead at this very moment as they go through life? I think Paul would say so (Eph. 2:1-3). Also, if that future exalted Mormon has a three-kingdom system in heaven with Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial levels, won't that also cause a degree of separation? And finally there is eternal/spiritual death in outer darkness. I do not think your system protects you from any of these pains and reasons to mourn that come from death. If that is the case, then the promise of Rev 21 is made void for you individually.

Again, you prove too much. If you believe that even one soul will be eternally damned (cut off not only from God, but from those who that person knew and loved in mortality), then the strict reading of Revelation 21 that you propose becomes just as problematic for you as an evangelical Christian as it is for me as a Mormon. Because under your own theology as I understand it, in the resurrection a damned family member would remain dead to God and so, effectively, dead to you.

I do not think Jesus ever wept over an inconvenience.

See my comment above. I am curious, though: Why, then, do you believe He wept?

I do not think you can say "death will be defeated once and for all" like I can.

This discussion has taught me that those of us (Mormon or otherwise) who point to scriptural passages like "death will be defeated once and for all" often haven't put a lot of thought into the implications, natural consequences, and inherent limits of those passages. I appreciate the way your comments have inspired me to re-evaluate some of my conceptions.

My best wishes to you my friend!

Likewise.

[norah63]

Like him or not Glenn Beck seems to have built a bridge of communication from Latter day Saints to many who are seeking answers to their questions.

In this year especially many are reading and asking, and getting some clarification on things that might have otherwise been misrepresented. That has to be a positive.

[Sunnysprite]

A few weeks ago, Glenn Beck (yes I'm a fan) opened an email address to take questions on Mormonism and did a show addressing the various issues outsiders take. I didn't see the show ('starving' students can't afford the subscription) but I read the article, and it was good stuff. I have a feeling however, that his inbox is backed up till the Millennium.

So if you guys don't mind I'll ask you the same question (full disclosure I'm thinking about using this to guide my research for a paper in the future). I started this way:

Would a Mormon couple who achieved exaltation continue to have spirit children into eternity? If so, would those children need to live mortal lives on a future sinful world in order to have a chance at exaltation themselves?

I'm expecting answer to be "yes," to both questions in light of D/C 132 and 2 Nephi 2.

Then my follow-up question is this: If the above is true will death ever be defeated once and for all?

I'm thinking the answer would have to be "no," but that does not jive with Revelation 21: "death will be no more" (v4).

So here is finally the real question(s): how do you resolve that tension? is there a tension? do you expect death to recur, why/why not? how do you feel about that?

I am actually curious to hear your answers, and while I'm hoping for a good debate, I'm not here for a fight. My responses will be minimal.

Glen Beck. Seriously?

[john doe]

Let's not let this thread devolve into how much we support or dislike Glenn Beck's politics. This thread is about his efforts to explain the LDS Church as he views it. If you're not able to do that, please feel free to ignore this thread.

[prisonchaplain]

I appreciate Phi39s questions, and find thinking about our eternal future to be a fantastic and optimistic exercise. The "No more death, no more tears" promise of Rev. 21 is such a comfort--it even permeates many modern contemporary Christian lyrics.

The idea that the Plan of Salvation cycles throughout eternity does seem to run counter to the promise of no more death. Is it LDS teaching that exalted humans in the Celestial Kingdom will eventually oversee their own worlds, and that each one will experience an Adam/Eve-like rebellion, requiring that the exalted ones will sacrifice their sons for the sins of their worlds? Or, is this speculative?

[Vort]

The specifics you mention are speculative, though commonly believed among many Latter-day Saints.

The whole "death is conquered" thing is, from the LDS point of view, clearly an individual promise. We do not accept that the very idea of mortality will be forever banished from all creation, nor is any such meaning implicit in the wording. It is perfectly reasonable to understand the statement as an insight into individual mortality and immortality.

[phi39]

... I am curious, though: Why, then, do you believe He wept?

I think that a major theme of the story in John 11 is that Jesus really was heartbroken over Lazarus' death. Yes, he is "deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled" by the tears of Mary and Martha, but he was able to hold it together and comfort them, as painful as it was to see their pain. He doesn't actually burst into tears until he sees the tomb. That's when the onlookers say, "See how he loved him!"

I bring up this example of Jesus to show that while I agree that we do not need to fear death, it is still a horror, a tragedy in and of itself, no matter how temporary. I've been to an open casket funeral for a young girl once, and I've had to deal with my grandparents being cremated before I could fly home and see them and "say goodbye." There is hope, and even joy to answer the pain, but there is a definite "not-right-ness" to death.

... the strict reading of Revelation 21 that you propose becomes just as problematic for you as an evangelical Christian as it is for me as a Mormon. Because under your own theology as I understand it, in the resurrection a damned family member would remain dead to God and so, effectively, dead to you.

Yes, and in my theology, such a thing will never happen again.

I find this to be simply a better story as silly as that sounds, and I hope you will consider it. The ending is final and complete, a true "happily ever after" in the greatest possible sense you could ever imagine.

This discussion has taught me that those of us (Mormon or otherwise) who point to scriptural passages like "death will be defeated once and for all" often haven't put a lot of thought into the implications, natural consequences, and inherent limits of those passages. I appreciate the way your comments have inspired me to re-evaluate some of my conceptions.

Thank you my friend! I am relieved to hear that.

[Sunnysprite]

I appreciate Phi39s questions, and find thinking about our eternal future to be a fantastic and optimistic exercise. The "No more death, no more tears" promise of Rev. 21 is such a comfort--it even permeates many modern contemporary Christian lyrics.

The idea that the Plan of Salvation cycles throughout eternity does seem to run counter to the promise of no more death. Is it LDS teaching that exalted humans in the Celestial Kingdom will eventually oversee their own worlds, and that each one will experience an Adam/Eve-like rebellion, requiring that the exalted ones will sacrifice their sons for the sins of their worlds? Or, is this speculative?

I've always felt like some people try to explain things in scripture that just aren't there. It seemed redundant that a Pastor could talk for 20 Minutes on John 3:16. The scripture is there to contemplate, and it seemed to me that sometimes people try to do the listeners job for them.

[prisonchaplain]

I've always felt like some people try to explain things in scripture that just aren't there. It seemed redundant that a Pastor could talk for 20 Minutes on John 3:16. The scripture is there to contemplate, and it seemed to me that sometimes people try to do the listeners job for them.

20 minutes???!!!

I average 45...

JOHN 3:16

Introduction: The first verse that most Christians, child or adult, learns in John 3:16.

1.Christmas, Easter, Salvation and Truth are all wrapped up in this one verse. So, today, we will learn the meaning of John 3:16

2.Though this is a Christmas service, the truth of God=s love my best be seen by contrasting it with the hatred of humanity. A MEDICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST

Scripture: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16 KJV)

John 3:16 "This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. (The Message)

Porque de tal manera amó Dios al mundo, que ha dado á su Hijo unigénito, para que todo aquel que en él cree, no se pierda, mas tenga vida eterna. (Juan 3:16 SRV)

Proposition: Message of Christmas is found in John 3:16.

Interrogative: What is the meaning of this verse?

Transition: First, what is God's character.

I.For God so loved the world

A.This is a denial of the assertions of the Deists and the Agnostics.

1.Deists say that God may exist, but that he left us to our own wisdom, and does not involve himself in the affairs of humanity.

2.Agnostics says that God may exist, but that he is unknowable.

B.Our God is knowable, because he loves us.

1.1Jo 4:8: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

2.1 John 4:16: And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

C.Because he loves us, those who seek him will find him.

1.But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deuteronomy 4:29 NIV)

2.God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. (Acts 17:27 NIV)

Transition: Okay, so the Bible says God loves me. How do I know it is true?

II. that he gave his one and only Son

A.Story of the manger with the cross on it.

B.John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.(NIV)

C.Genesis 22:6-13

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and gave it to Isaac his son to carry. He carried the flint and the knife. The two of them went off together.

[7] Isaac said to Abraham his father, "Father?"

"Yes, my son."

"We have flint and wood, but where's the sheep for the burnt offering?"

[8] Abraham said, "Son, God will see to it that there's a sheep for the burnt offering." And they kept on walking together.

[9] They arrived at the place to which God had directed him. Abraham built an altar. He laid out the wood. Then he tied up Isaac and laid him on the wood. [10] Abraham reached out and took the knife to kill his son.

[11] Just then an angel of God called to him out of Heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Yes, I'm listening."

[12] "Don't lay a hand on that boy! Don't touch him! Now I know how fearlessly you fear God; you didn't hesitate to place your son, your dear son, on the altar for me."

[13] Abraham looked up. He saw a ram caught by its horns in the thicket. Abraham took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.

3.While this is a true story about Abraham's faithfulness to God, there is also a beautiful parallel here.

4.Abraham represents God the Father, who was willing to sacrifice his Son for our sins.

5.Isaac is the repentent Christian, who says, "Here I am Lord. Take my life! Do what you want. Kill me, bless me, bury me, use me."

i.When we come to Jesus, we come to receive a free gift yes--but we do give him our lives, don't we?

ii.Nobody seriously comes to Jesus, only expecting blessing--not expecting that once God has a hold on their lives, there won't be changes.

6.Of course, the ram represents Jesus, who became the sacrifice for us.

i.When we came to Jesus, we feared our lives would truly be lost. No more fun. No more boozing, druging, sexual flings...no more of the things we thought we lived for.

ii.But when we gave God our lives, and received the gift of forgiveness and eternal life with God.

a.WOW! We realized we had just begun to live.

b.Truly we were born again!

Transition: So how do I go about giving my life to God and getting this new life?

III.that whoever believes in him

A.This truth is humiliating for us, because we've always thought heaven was for the good people.

1.The Muslim says: I pray five times a day.

2.The Jehovah's Witness says: I go door to door proclaiming the Good News of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

3.The Buddhist says: I spend hours meditating on the goodness that is within me.

4.The Wiccan says: I do no harm to others.

5.The legalistic Christian says: I tithe, attend church, study my Bible, preach at others, and I ALWAYS say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays."

B.This truth is liberating for us, because deep down inside we know we're not good enough to get in.

1.Isa 6:5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."(NIV)

2.As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; (Romans 3:10 NIV)

3.for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 NIV)

4.Mt 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

5.Mt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV)

Transition: So, if I simply believe in Jesus then I'll never die?

IV.shall not perish

A.If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15 NIV)

B.Luke 16:19-26

"There once was a rich man, expensively dressed in the latest fashions, wasting his days in conspicuous consumption. [20] A poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, had been dumped on his doorstep. [21] All he lived for was to get a meal from scraps off the rich man's table. His best friends were the dogs who came and licked his sores.

[22] "Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. [24] He called out, 'Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I'm in agony in this fire.'

[25] "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It's not like that here. Here he's consoled and you're tormented. [26] Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.'

C.Note also that you have an escape from the "hell on earth," that is often most evident in our own lives.

Galatians 5:19-21: It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; [20] trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; [21] the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on.

This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God's kingdom.

Transition: Salvation then is eternal, and it's right now!

V.but have ever lasting life.

A.Heaven: Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6 NIV)

B.He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Revelation 21:4 NIV)

C.And once again, note that in many ways heaven does begin right here, right now, in our lives.

Galatians 5:22-23

But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchardCthings like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, [23] not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely.

Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way.

VI.Conclusion

If you want God to forgive your sins, and you want to live this day forward as a follower of his son, Jesus then come forward.

If you are a Christian, but you want to recommit your life to God on this Christmas service day, saying, I haven't been living like a Christian. I considered myself one, but I have not been pleasing God, laterly. BUT, I'll begin living God's way not some day, but today! then come forward.

Maybe you are in a good place with God, today. However, you realize you need to share the wealth. You need to be more open about your faith. Then come.

Maybe you are in a good place with God, today. If you know someone who is up here, and want to support him/her, come.

[Anddenex]

I say all this because I would appreciate a response to learn how you process these things, but also I cannot hide my evangelistic concern for your sakes. The thought of this kind of a future makes my heart heavy for you!

But imagine: what if death were truly defeated in the most complete way? What if all we know about the New Creation is that all creation will be free and completely new? What if all we know is that we will be with our beloved God and serve Him? Beyond that, who knows what is in store? That future would be entirely open, a mystery and an adventure! The truest happy ending you've ever heard of!

I understand others have offered some of their thoughts, and would like to share mine own.

I already see death as described in Revelations 21, as complete as it can be, death will not take on a new meaning within God's eternal plan.

I already feel, and understand, that the New Creation, we will be completely free and completely new. Our bodies will no longer be corrupt, they will be incorruptible.

As stated in Moses 1: 39, of the Pearl of Great Price, we know that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all of his children. Thus we will be continuing the work and glory of our God, and inasmuch as we are in the service of our offspring or spiritual brothers, we are only in the service of our God.

As such, although as others have said, speculative in nature, although we will experience what God is now experiencing with us, I am reminded of Nephi's words in the Book of Mormon, (2 Nephi 9: 10-11, there are other verses, however I have chosen to focus on these):

10. O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

11. And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

It is interesting you choose to focus on the sorrow, yet I would venture to choose to look upon these words and others.

The question, rhetorically I present, why would I sorrow when others will experience the same joy, paradise, an incorruptible body, and when death is no more for them either?

Best Regards!

[Sunnysprite]

When someone dies, we weep for our own sorrow. Unless, we truly believe that they have gone to a better place. In our culture it is hard to get to that place. Not having been raised in the church, I often wonder if some LDS do it.

[Vort]

When someone dies, we weep for our own sorrow. Unless, we truly believe that they have gone to a better place. In our culture it is hard to get to that place. Not having been raised in the church, I often wonder if some LDS do it.

Even when we firmly believe they have entered a "better place", we still weep at their loss. D&C 42:45 says:

Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.

[Blackmarch]

When someone dies, we weep for our own sorrow. Unless, we truly believe that they have gone to a better place. In our culture it is hard to get to that place. Not having been raised in the church, I often wonder if some LDS do it.

There should always be sorrow for having to part ways. I think the difference between LDS and most of the rest of the world is that our sorrow tends to be that of a temporary parting type where as most the rest of the worlds sorrow tends to be the kind that comes from fear that youll never see or be with that person again.

If i'm making any sense..