"God doesn't want you to be depressed"

[NeuroTypical]

"God doesn't want you to be depressed." Yeah, that's an exact quote, preached over the pulpit by our Stake representative last Sunday.

His overall talk was good and relevant and wonderful to most people out there. He started his talk by mentioning the existence of people with legitimate mental illnesses. I was mostly edified by his exposition on what happiness is and isn't, where it comes from, and how to obtain it. I don't remember sustaining this particular brother, but I do, and I will the next time I get a chance. We all struggle with little undesirable bits of our background or culture expressing themselves when we open our mouths - I'm the last person to take offense at something like that - I'd be the worlds biggest hypocrite if I did.

But I was not edified by that false blanket statement that jumped out at us near the end. My wife, who has struggled for years and years with her brain to achieve some sort of relatively level playing field, just rolled her eyes and kept knitting. She's gotten so used to encountering people with this mindset, it doesn't even bug her that it's preached over the pulpit as truth. It still bugs me though.

Maybe I'll get a few more used copies of Elder Morrison's book Valley of Sorrow: A Layman's Guide to Understanding Mental Illness for Latter-Day Saints and hand them out to my bishopric and suggest they pass it along to the stake. That seemed to have a positive impact the last time I did it 8 years ago.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Vort]

Maybe the expression was inelegant, but I suspect your stake president was correct. The alternative theory is that God does want you to be depressed, which I suspect is false.

[annewandering]

I dont think God wants us to be depressed either. So we have brains to learn to combat it with what ever it takes, ie: therapy, meds scriptures, whatever. We havent got it figured out yet for everyone but we are trying.

I am thinking he was not referring to chronic depression. Probably just the generic sad day everyone gets every once in awhile. Of course he might just be totally uneducated on the subject but might as well assume the positive. :)

[Backroads]

Taking that message in the simplest terms... I also don't think God wants us to be crippled, cancerous, sick or injured in anyway. But that's also part of mortality, I don't think God will fix many cases, and it might be something we need to overcome, as anne said.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

LMM, what I understand you to be saying is the he said the equivilent of "God does not want you to watch R-rated movies or be depressed, so stop it." As if overcoming depression were that simple.

I get that. I don't suffer from depression, but emotional pain I have loads of...perhaps it is semantics. :) But in the same vein, I believe, I have a difficult time with most talks and lessons on adversity for the same reason. Perhaps it is not the speakers intention, but they always seem to come across as "adveristy is part of this life to just put on your big girl pants and deal with it." In the past (I don't speak or give lessons now for personal reasons not related to worthiness) when I spoke on adversity, I put the emphasis on how we can get strength from Heavenly Father and the Savior.

An example of what I mean is when they talk about adversity and immediately quote D&C 122. I do not find that comforting at all (I can say that here because Heavenly Father already knows how I feel.) What I do find comforting is the first words that the Lord said to Joseph in D&C 121.."thy suffering shall be but a small moment". Just a short phrase but to me it says, "I know your are suffering, and I am sorry, but it won't be long. Hold on."

The song I shared in another thread has lyrics from D&C 121, 122, and Isaiah, that are very comforting and uplifting. The song is called "My Kindness Shall Not Depart From Thee". You can find several versions of it on Youtube.

Thanks for mentioning that book. Now that you mention it, I remember it, but I haven't read it and I would like too.

Oh and I love that your wife knits in church...I do as well. I have been in a couple discussions about that very topic on line in different forums and I know people have some pretty strong opinions about it. I tell them just be glad I am coming to church...because right now that is huge, and if knitting helps me get through what I call "for happy people, by happy people" then so be it. :)

[Wingnut]

I don't believe that God wants me to be depressed, but I also don't believe that He's just going to take that challenge away from me. I also don't think that I can just "get over it" because He doesn't want it for me. I think God wants me to be happy, and part of the way I can be eternally happy is by overcoming challenges that I have in this life.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, I should clarify. The overall message was 'if you are depressed, here are things you can choose to do, in order to more closely align yourself with God's plan of happiness, instead of sitting there making yourself depressed like you're doing now.' LiterateParakeet nailed it.

And as I mentioned before, the talk was perfectly acceptable and relevant to me personally, and I suspect to most of the rest of the ward. And again, I'm sure if I ever get to sit down with the good brother and explain who my wife is and ask him to clarify his message, he'd immediately be giving clarifications similar to what everyone on this thread is saying. It is semantics, possibly backed by a bit of culturally-ingrained misunderstanding about how to say things properly. Hardly worth mentioning.

Oh and I love that your wife knits in church...I do as well. I have been in a couple discussions about that very topic on line in different forums and I know people have some pretty strong opinions about it. I tell them just be glad I am coming to church...because right now that is huge, and if knitting helps me get through what I call "for happy people, by happy people" then so be it.

I think you and my wife probably have a lot in common. She's successfully fighting her way to church maybe one Sunday in 4 right now. We've had a good run of understanding RS Presidents and spiritual bishops and VT's, so life is mostly good enough among our fellow mormons.

[LittleWyvern]

Maybe the expression was inelegant, but I suspect your stake president was correct. The alternative theory is that God does want you to be depressed, which I suspect is false.

No, I think the incorrectness is akin to saying that God does not want you to be experience trials.

[Vort]

No, I think the incorrectness is akin to saying that God does not want you to be experience trials.

"God wants you to be happy", or for that matter "God does not want you to be depressed", does not mean "God does not want you to experience trials".

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think you and my wife probably have a lot in common. She's successfully fighting her way to church maybe one Sunday in 4 right now. We've had a good run of understanding RS Presidents and spiritual bishops and VT's, so life is mostly good enough among our fellow mormons.

Thank goodness for suppportive leaders. I have been blessed with the same, but (perhaps this is the same for you), it has taken a bit of patience on both sides. My relationship with my Bishop is really good now. He is a great support and help to me, but we did have a pretty rocky beginning.

One thing I that has helped me alot, is after discussing how certain topics are hard for me...because as you say they apply to the general congregation, but not to a few (like me). My Bishop emailed me the list of Sacrament meeting topics through the end of the year. Then he seemed hastily added that he was not inviting me NOT to come to church. LOL! I assured him that I would come every week, but on the weeks that a touchy subject (like adversity) is the topic, I will sit in the lobby and take the Sacrament and then go to the library. (I am the Ward Librarian...which helps me also.)

I don't suggest this for everyone, but it is an example, of how a Bishop can work with the INDIVIDUAL. That is really important sometimes. My Bishop knows which topics I am having difficulty with, and why, and he supports me because we have discussed it and he knows I am going to therapy, and really doing everything I can to deal with my adversity.

[Guest]

Forgive me LM. I don't understand what the problem is with what the Stake representative saying "God doesn't want you to be depressed".

I was born with a chemical imbalance that causes me to have anger issues. I don't think God wants me to be angry. So, I'm not grasping what you're trying to say.

[Praetorian_Brow]

It always struck me as odd that its popular to blame a situation as a gift from Satan or some kind of organized event, solely to test our mettle, rather than taking ownership of the experience.

Mental illness affects everyone, whether its a specific time in our lives or someone we know is going through it. Some will live through it their whole lives and some will cope through abnormal and sometimes odd behaviours. Ahem, addictions.

I think as a society we also make the mistake of lumping a person who is sad because their cat died, with someone with schizophrenia. Most people will view it as a communicable disease and talk in hush and accusatory tones, while segregating them within their mind to a quarantined area.

Either way, I think knitting in church is awesome. I think the majority of church attendees are afraid to compare their boredom at sitting in a static position listening to random speakers touch on the same topic, for years on end, because they fear it as an unrighteous attitude.

The original quoted speaker had good intentions, even if it was not communicated well, or misunderstood. Just because someone said something from the pulpit, doesn't mean that its authentic faith building revelation.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

It always struck me as odd that its popular to blame a situation as a gift from Satan or some kind of organized event, solely to test our mettle, rather than taking ownership of the experience.

I agree. I suppose I used to see everything as coming from God or Satan, but now I think sometimes things, "just happen". I mean I think chemical imbalances are a genetic thing, that God allows, and perhaps Satan also tries to use to his advantage...but neither causes it.

Likewise, I don't think that God "gives" a person cancer (or other physical illness) to help them be stronger. I think that is enviromental, genetic (who knows?). God could heal it if He chose to, but generally, He does seem to allow it because growth can come from adversity.

In church talks/lessons on adversity, there is the implication that it is all from God...but I object to that strongly because abuse, pornography, rape, violence etc are all things that can cause great adversity, and none of them come from God, but are caused by people using their agency inappropriately.

[mikbone]

Mental Illness and George Albert Smith [uPDATED] By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

[NeuroTypical]

Forgive me LM. I don't understand what the problem is with what the Stake representative saying "God doesn't want you to be depressed".

I was born with a chemical imbalance that causes me to have anger issues. I don't think God wants me to be angry. So, I'm not grasping what you're trying to say.

The overall message of his talk was that coming unto Christ is the way to happiness. His sentence came with the direct implication that depression is always a result of sin, or failing to come unto Christ enough, or failing to come unto Christ the right way. In other words, my wife is depressed because she's doing something wrong, or not doing something right enough - as opposed to my wife having a medical condition akin to a broken arm or hypothyroidism or what have you.

[Blackmarch]

I suppose that god wants for us a great many things. Fortunately for us he holds back in granting them all at once....

[Sharky]

An observation that my wife, an RN & NP, had when we lived in Utah ....

Most of her patients had some form of depression or feelings of inadequacy. Some where serious, some mild, some intermittent. Some needed treatment some didn't. However, in general, there is a stigma attached to being treated for depression ....

That stigma, based on her experience working as an RN & NP in 5 different states, is strongest in Utah.

We don't question insuline for diabetes or other drugs for other illnesses/ailments, so why do so many people question the use of antidepressents or ritalin or other similar meds, when they are needed, to treat a chemical imbalance in the brain?

Why is it that in some states/areas, treating the brain with prescription drugs is so difficult to accept? (gramted there are times when those prescriptions are over-prescribed or not needed or abused .... I'm only talking about the legitatmate need).

I just received my copy of that book that is referenced. I LOVE IT! I think it should be a Standard Reference for everyone in a ward leadership position .... EQ, HP, RS, etc.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

We don't question insuline for diabetes or other drugs for other illnesses/ailments, so why do so many people question the use of antidepressents or ritalin or other similar meds, when they are needed, to treat a chemical imbalance in the brain...

I agree. And don't forget therapy. It has been a tremendous help for me, in my struggle to overcome the effects of childhood abuse, and with my PTSD, and related depression. Some in the church think that the Atonement and forgiveness should be enough. But fortunately, Elder Packer and Sis. Okasaki have both spoken on abuse and said that sometimes therapy is needed, just as when we break a bone we go to the doctor.

I speak openly about going to therapy because I want to help erode the stigma associated with mental illness, and therapy.

[Guest]

We don't question insuline for diabetes or other drugs for other illnesses/ailments, so why do so many people question the use of antidepressents or ritalin or other similar meds, when they are needed, to treat a chemical imbalance in the brain?

Why is it that in some states/areas, treating the brain with prescription drugs is so difficult to accept? (gramted there are times when those prescriptions are over-prescribed or not needed or abused .... I'm only talking about the legitatmate need).

I'm one who refused medication. Tons of doctors and nurses and physical therapists etc. in my famly. My own brother is a neurologist.

Unlike insulin and muscles and hearts and lungs, the brain is a highly complex organ of the body that is largely unknown territory. But even the hearts and lungs and such are complex enough that it still manages to stump doctors on a daily basis.

For example, my father has lung cancer. He has the best doctors caring for him. Yet, everything they do is a trial. That means, they give my dad this drug and wait for how my dad's body would react and if my dad reacts negatively, they put that fire out and then change the protocol. This used to drive me insane (coming from the computer field where we don't put anything into production without knowing it's going to work exactly as expected). But that's just how the human body and the field of medicine is.

The brain is the most uncharted territory in the human body. Any drug that affects the brain is given on a trial basis just like the drugs my dad is taking for his lungs. But, unlike the lungs where it is relatively easier to tweak and observe and predict the effects of the drugs to his body, the holistic effect of the drugs to the brain is not as apparent and therefore, you could possibly get a very negative side effect and not know it until something terrible has happened. And then, the only way to put out the fire is to tweak the drug that ends up causing some other negative side effect a few months/years down the line... until you end up with a chemical cocktail like my mother-in-law is on that practically makes her a walking zombie.

No, I'm not saying brain-altering drugs are terrible. All I'm saying is - I would rather deal with my chemical imbalance without medication because I understand my natural inclinations better and has a relatively more predictable causality than having to deal with the unpredictable side-effects of medication. Yes, it is difficult and can be very dangerous to those around me. But I see the problem, I feel it, I can learn to fight it... sometimes, I fail, but sometimes I succeed. And each success just makes me fight that much harder.

Other people's condition may be worse than mine is and that there really is no other alternative than medication. I understand that. In my case, for instance, if I lose control, I could hurt somebody really badly - especially my children. If I would have felt that my condition puts too great a risk to my husband and children, I'll be the first to take that medication and deal with the risk of the side-effects later...

[Guest]

The overall message of his talk was that coming unto Christ is the way to happiness. His sentence came with the direct implication that depression is always a result of sin, or failing to come unto Christ enough, or failing to come unto Christ the right way. In other words, my wife is depressed because she's doing something wrong, or not doing something right enough - as opposed to my wife having a medical condition akin to a broken arm or hypothyroidism or what have you.

Okay, I understand what you're saying and it may be because I didn't hear the sentence spoken in context with the talk, but to me, the sentence "God doesn't want us depressed" just doesn't translate to what you're saying above. I think it just means God wants us to work on it and not just "stay depressed because I'm born this way". So yes, if your wife is still depressed after all she can do, then she gets to fight on and endure to the end. I mean, there's so many things you can do to magnify other things to minimize the deficiency of a broken arm...

Edited September 21, 2012 by anatess

[Anddenex]

These types of discussions have always intrigued me, and which is part of the reason why I majored in Marriage, Family, and Human Development, along with a minor in Psychology.

I am intrigued by the varying responses by the public, LDS members, and researchers in general. I am currently reading the book provided by LM.

I personally see nothing wrong in the Stake representatives statement, and find it to be factual. I would agree, God does not want us to be depressed. I am reminded of President Hinckley's statements regarding members of the church should be the happiest of all people.

The questions I have yet to understand or discover are these, whenever these types of discussions are debated:

1. When does agency no longer play a role when connected to brain chemistry?

2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?

3. How is it determined that this person suffers from a chronic illness, verses a person suffering from sin?

4. How much do self-fulfilling prophecies play a role in a person chronic illness?

Note: I don't correlate "chronic illness" with sin.

These questions stem from gospel doctrine and scientific research. Gospel doctrine for example:

"And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity."

These types of discussion intrigue me also due to a specific promise within my Patriarchal Blessing.

[Misshalfway]

I struggle with PTSD. I'm better now....but I still struggle with certain experiences/triggers. But it's all ok. I've learned the difference between my psychic experiencing and who I really am and how I really feel about things. They both live together inside my brain, but they are distinct and I know which one to listen to. And I've learned that one can actually experience the symptoms of the imbalance and still feel and enjoy the more refined emotional states such as happiness, joy, gratitude, humility, etc. And I can even do that on days when my pain won't let me function like I'd prefer.

Statements like "God doesn't want you to be depressed" and the implications of such statements that the person is sinning or failing in some way, especially when made by people who haven't had the experience of such trials, tend to sit badly with me too. I suppose I still haven't figured out how to allow other people their ignorance....ignorance about depression or ignorance about the journey of happiness. I tend to want to protest and show them all the insight they are missing. Perhaps if I did more knitting in church and less "Did he really just say that?" I'd learn these refinements faster. :)

Until then, I'll probably continue to feel compelled to help people see wider views about what God wants us to "feel" and what God is doing with all this mortal experience. Well....those that have ears to listen anyway. :)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Before I give you my opinion on your questions, I have a couple questions for you. When you say "majored in" do you mean that you are still in school then? You haven't graduated yet? Just curious, because I would think that your understanding would be different after graduation then before you begin, that is the point right?

I personally see nothing wrong in the Stake representatives statement, and find it to be factual. I would agree, God does not want us to be depressed. I am reminded of President Hinckley's statements regarding members of the church should be the happiest of all people.

I'm confused by this statement. The phrase by itself could be interpreted in different ways. However what LM and I object to is the idea that being happy is something you just need to set your mind to, follow the Savior etc. Is THAT what you are agreeing to? I mean do you believe that if we just set our mind to it we can be happy? Your post makes me think this is the case, but I want to clarify in case I have misunderstood you.

I have to run, but I will return and address your questions later.

[Guest]

Are these rhetorical questions?

I'll pretend they're not. Here are my answers. I'll refer to my own chemical imbalance (rage, not depression):

1. When does agency no longer play a role when connected to brain chemistry?

I'm thinking you mean, when does an action become a result of brain chemistry instead of agency...

When my Spirit knows it is wrong, actively tries to fight it, yet the body does something entirely different. This is exactly how it feels: When I get in this rage, I feel like my "sane self" is above my head, looking down at myself and saying, "Who is this monster?".

2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?

3. How is it determined that this person suffers from a chronic illness, verses a person suffering from sin?

Now, of course, I've gotten angry in a normal way - when I stay completely in control of my body. I have control of what I do with that anger in this case. I can yell if I want to, I can smack the table if I want to, and I can choose to let it go. There has been times when something gets me so mad that I do something stupid - like throw a plate or something. Yes, this is out of control because in hindsight, I shouldn't have done a stupid thing like that - but in this case, my brain and my hand are acting in synch.

I can tell when it's "that" rage versus the regular one because my head feels hot and my heartbeat goes pitty-pat pitty-pat and my brain goes, "Oh no, oh no, oh no".... and then my head checks out and whoosh goes the plate broken on that there wall... it doesn't matter what caused me to get mad. It could be just a silly thing as "you look at me cross-eyed" which in my normal self would just cause a slight annoyance.

4. How much do self-fulfilling prophecies play a role in a person chronic illness?

Not sure. I do know that my rage problems are harder to control when it's "that time of month". There has been times that I lose control (I have learned ways to deal with the problem so my uncontrollable rage incidents are relatively rare these days - like it's been... maybe 2 years or so? since I last lost control.) when it's that time of month because I am exhausted fighting it. I mean, looking back, I can kinda see that maybe I lost control because I knew it's harder to control at that time. I don't know.

Honestly, I don't know how to determine if it's a self-fulfilling prophecy or not.

Hope this helps. And hey, maybe you can help me!

[Misshalfway]

I don't disagree with the statement "God doesn't want us to be depressed." But I do think we misunderstand what is meant by this. I don't think it means that righteousness = no pain or no out of balance feelings. If someone is equating righteousness with emotional perfectionism....well, then I think they are following more of Satan's plan on things.

What I do think this means is that God wants us to learn to have hope and faith, etc etc. no matter what it is that life brings. It's kind of paradoxical but we need the depression so we can learn the hope. It's that age old opposition in all things deal.