Getting fed up and really considering going inactive

[Backroads]

SisterSarah, I think I'm with you socially on the welfare bit--I'm a big believer in that you work for what you need. But yeah, times are changing and society does think about those who are suffering, putting us in the dilemma of "help them or let them starve?"

[applepansy]

Eowyn,

Neither had we and we have been around for a long while and moved a few times so this is not our original ward. It may have started as one person or "family" but apparently word got out somewhere. Suffice it to say people will work the system especially when the system is a tad weak and it's questionable who is minding the store.

But if we are going to feed these folks the least they can be is respectful.

Times are changing I guess.

I agree with the suggestions of talking with your Bishop. Don't call and make an appointment if that isn't working. Go See Your Bishop. Sit outside his office door until he sees you there. Or call him at home.

These issues are really eating at you.

Our stake sends 14 couples as missionaries to the inner city. (I never thought Ogden was "inner city" but it is everything "inner city" implies.). What we've learned is these Bishop's are overwhelmed. One couple was called as an assistant Bishop, not counselor. His job was to deal with the people who joined to get food, housing, etc. There are rules and procedures in place for temporal assistance. Your Bishop knows what those rules are. If someone is "pulling the wool over his eyes" then he needs to know about it. And from what you've posted it sounds like you need to tell him....so tell him.

But are you really going to allow this issue to come between you and your testimony or activity in Christ's church?

[Backroads]

Thanks for the tip, but good luck. Make an appoint with a secretary and hope someone gets back to you without telling you it's judgmental.

AS for the comment that we joined because of the good values, that is true. Had it been this way when we joined MANY years ago, we likely would not have returned after one or two visits at best.

And many of YOU are not reading this thread in it's entirety and assuming that people are working on improvement. What part is not read that it has been blatantly stated that they do not intend or wish to change anything and that it is up to us to be accepting.

Perhaps it's best not to join something just for the "values". I would daresay most religions require a true testimony.

And yes, it is up to us to be righteous judges, and often we have no choice but to accept that others will live how they will despite anything we do. I personally find it easier to live my life than to lie awake at night grinding my teeth over what everyone else is doing.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Backroads

[RMGuy]

Well, we did fight a war in heaven so that you would have the right to be inactive, if that is what you choose.

-RM

[prisonchaplain]

First of all to answer all of the above, no we are not perfect, but a total lack of respect is another thing. What is the difference between accepting and enabling.

To totally lack respect is to know how to behave and not do so. My guess is most people in your ward and my church simply do not agree with the old standards.

As to prison chaplain, while it is true that in the 1950's we were taught to wear dresses, modest clothing, (mainstream makeup and tasteful jewelry were not frowned upon ) at least in the church we grew up. But self respect and respect for a place of worship was expected.

So, we changed even more than you did. This suggests to me that much of what has changed is church culture--not moral standards.

I am also not implying or suggesting that we need to hide away from the outside world. But I do have to ask parents, to what extent do you allow your children to associate with others. Are you saying that it's ok for your children to associate, go to camp with, attend Sunday school (and or be taught by) ANYONE????

OK, I want my teens not to become tight with drug users, etc. However, I wouldn't pull my kids out of Sunday School because I didn't like some of the kids who attended. As for the teachers, in your church, doesn't the leadership call the teachers, after praying and being led by the Holy Spirit to make the right choices? Unless you do not sustain your leaders, can you really challenge who the teachers are?

If these people were NOT baptized and attending the church, would you want your kids associating with them or would you for that matter want to, but the exception is they managed to get baptized.

My church is facing this very issue. Our youth group largely draws from the middle and high schools in our area. Many do not come to our regular church services. The area is rough. So, yes we would let our middle school student attend the services. We don't allow sleepovers unless we know the family well.

WE are not talking people struggling and overcoming wearing jeans in church, too much makeup, smoking, drinking etc: (wish that was all it was).

What about people teaching a class or getting up in front of everyone at fast and testament saying "I know this church is true......" then attending a class right after saying I expect everyone to accept me as I am. And that same person get up in front of the church in a mini skirt, boobs hanging out under a sheer top, tatoos with F words and photos of guns and violence? Ok call me judgmental all you want.

With getting into specifics, is that not what the leadership is called to handle? The general biblical model is that if a member/attendee needs correction, one person counsels, then a small group of 2-3 leaders. If necessary, it can lead to church discipline. As I understand it, your church has a formal procedure for these matters.

Or another that held a temple recommend with the F words tatoo visably.

Isn't that the bishop's responsibility?

Sorry but I am all for teaching responsibility as well as respect. Forgiveness is fine also but enabling and condoning i not.

There are people that have an agenda for being a member even when they full well are open about not even coming close to trying to "work through" anything. Instead they come to get some free handouts or to meet people and solicit kids.

And again, doesn't leadership deal with these matters? As for soliciting children, I hope your church has written and established procedures for monitoring and limiting sex-offenders who may attend, or the wards could be liable.

[

[ztodd]

I agree that if people are wearing immodest clothing or showing off tattoos or letting vulgar word or images be visible on their person, then you have a right to respectfully talk to your bishop about it or even to talk to those people respectfully about it. I personally would probably try to avoid those people except for talking to them about it once or twice, until they cleaned up the appearance a little. Harder to do would be to try to protect your children from seeing those things. I believe we should have a right to be able to feel spiritually safe at church and not worry about being exposed to things against the church's standards. But... make sure you are respectful and loving in your approach, whether you speak directly to them or to the bishop.

Loving communication is key. Don't go inactive unless you at least give that your best shot.

Edited October 16, 2012 by ztodd
addition

[NightSG]

The bar is truly being lowered and it appears that anyone with a pulse can be baptized and become members of the church.

Are you sure you're going to the same church? We don't require a pulse.

[Penstress]

Newbies are changing lots as the gospel changes all things. We have lots to tackle as new members. Be patient with them. Many are called.... They don't all stay active but give them that chance by showing love.....

[bytor2112]

Yep...we have some members that eat ham and drink hot chocolate.......terrestrial beings at best.

[bcguy]

I think Judo said it right there. "Difficult habits to break". I would not be to judgmental after all, I have encountered members in my ward who were...and I ALMOST left!

When I immigrated from United States to Canada, the ward was having some real issues. The bishop was not doing as good a job. New bishop was appointed "Great guy!!!" and now, its better then ever :)

The standards of the church haven't changed. All new members go through the same baptismal interview and are asked the same questions. While it is possible some lie their way through the interview, I think it is more likely that they are merely struggling to keep their baptismal covenant. The individuals that seem to stand out to you are likely people who have a strong desire to repent and do better, but who have difficult habits to break or are subjected to situations and/or influences that make it hard for them to keep their testimonies strong.

There does need to be a balance between accepting people "as they are" and expecting them to improve. We do not want to drive people away from the gospel, and have been told at several points in the scriptures that we should continue to allow even those who are struggling through serious repentance or even unwilling to go through the repentance process to come and worship with us. We want them to feel the love and welcoming embrace of the Savior as they come to our meetings.

At the same time, the standards and expectations we hold ourselves to need to be made clear. This is mostly handled in the background, by those leaders who sit in interviews with these individuals and determine whether or not they should be partaking of the sacrament, serving in callings, or attending the temple. The blessings of the sacrament and temple attendance are limited to those living worthily, while church attendance is meant to be open to all those who desire to come.

[prisonchaplain]

[Leah]

Good grief!!!!!

I am not some old complaining futty dutty talking about a mere tatoo here, and we don't have band aids large enough. Body cast perhaps! But no one is attempting to cover anything. Actually one removed her top to show the artwork on her back as well.

Like on this forum, the ward seems not to care or want to bother and we are not talking ONE person because these folks have recruited their friends (free food and rent) can draw a bit of a crowd). F words (that can be read from across the room) prominently displayed and definitely not covered but deliberately displayed for affect (so everyone can accept it), and language that matches the tatoos.

And it is not just tatoos. OK I get that people have sins and some behavior that had to work on correcting. But people that don't recognize the behavior as wrong in the first place, and people that insist everyone else needs to accept the behavior as normal, is wrong by any standards. You can't even behave like that in most inner city public schools without a reprimand at best.

But lets just keep defending the poor sinners (albeit they don't believe in anything being wrong) and call those judgmental that get tired on showing up every Sunday to this. We are just so done with it.

Why are you so angry? And why do you think that you get to sit in judgment of those you feel do not follow the teachings of the church when you do not always do so yourself? What was it that President Uchtdorf said? Something about not judging me just because I sin differently than you do?

[Leah]

Thanks for the tip, but good luck. Make an appoint with a secretary and hope someone gets back to you without telling you it's judgmental.

AS for the comment that we joined because of the good values, that is true. Had it been this way when we joined MANY years ago, we likely would not have returned after one or two visits at best.

And many of YOU are not reading this thread in it's entirety and assuming that people are working on improvement. What part is not read that it has been blatantly stated that they do not intend or wish to change anything and that it is up to us to be accepting.

Oh well thanks for your time.

Looking for somewhere to pray and study scriptures with much less distraction and much more respect

You say you joined because of the "good values".

Do you have a testimony of the gospel? Of the Book of Mormon? Of the atonement? Or is that not important?

[Vort]

Those shirts are not white, and there is an appalling lack of ties.

[JudoMinja]

It is sounding to me like the main thing you are upset about is the attire, blatantly offensive tattoos, and attitudes of some of the fellow members of your ward. You seem to think they should not have been allowed to be baptised because of these things. Yet these are not qualities considered during a baptismal interview. Here are the interview questions:

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman.

b. The law of tithing.

c. The Word of Wisdom.

d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members.

6. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?

While these questions stipulate the need for repentance, keeping the law of chastity, and honoring the Sabbath day, NOWHERE does it say they have to keep tattoos covered or dress a particular way. And attitude changes come with time. There are plenty of people who attend church services with attitudes that rub me the wrong way, but it's important to remember that they have their own imperfections to work on and I have mine. Let's not get stuck on the mote in the eyes of our brothers and sisters when there is a beam we need to remove from our own.

There are higher standards we try to maintain. These standards are outlined in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet and discussed occasionally at church meetings. Yet it is up to every individual to take it upon themselves to follow those standards, and determine whether they are going to uphold and live them to their fullest extent or toe the line and make as little of a change to their lives as possible. Getting angry and judgmental about their failure to make full use of the atonement and rid themselves of their crutches does nothing to help them and certainly doesn't help yourself.

Yes, the Lord said "go and sin no more". Yes, these people should make a greater effort to improve themselves. But their position with the Lord is between them and the Lord- not YOU and the Lord. Their position with the church is between them and their Bishop- not YOU and their Bishop. I don't think that people here are trying to be uncaring or to shrug off what people are failing to do- we are just trying to point out that YOUR faith shouldn't hinge on how other members choose to attend their church services.

There is a time and a place for accepting people with open arms despite all their faults, and there is a time ad place for upholding righteous standards to prevent holy places from being sullied. Church is a place for acceptance- for welcoming and teaching all who are willing to enter and learn. The temple is the place where we do not permit those unworthy to enter.

As for subjecting children to unrighteous influences- I hope that I can teach my child to use his own brain and listen to the influence of the spirit in making decisions for himself, despite any and all outside influences that try to lead him astray. I hope he recognizes when those around him fail to uphold the standards and that he strives to set an example. I hope that he learns to consider all things that people tell him with thought and prayer, to determine for himself if it is right or misled. The people in the church are not perfect, but we are all striving to reach the same goal. It is our job to bring ourselves and others to the Savior so that we can all work out our salvation together- not to cast out sinners or those slow to learn.

[kartvines]

Before I became inactive which lasted 40 years, I had only gone to one ward, and since my return after the death of my wife 6 months ago to this date I have seen many changes from what I remembered in the ward I was attending in the 60's

I fell far was from the church even to the point of riding with a Biker gang for many years, after returning from my Viet Nam service, and should that prevent me form retuning to my Church and asking for forgiveness?

Overall I do however agree with many of your view points, I know I am far from being perfect and yet I have strives to return and re-grasp the rod that may lead to my salvation.

Should I be excluded? The idea that I might be kept me from returning, which I now regret.

[Dravin]

You'll probably need to discuss your past with your Bishop at some point, but the initial step is to simply show up and work on grasping that rod. To directly answer your question, no you shouldn't be prevented from returning based on what you've shared.

[kartvines]

I have already done that, and I was responding to the original post, but I still struggle, not because of lack of testimony but for fear that I have gone beyond the acceptable and the long journey I now face to redeem myself in order to reach the point of having my wife sealed to me, but it takes one step at a time. Thank you for your feedback

You'll probably need to discuss your past with your Bishop at some point, but the initial step is to simply show up and work on grasping that rod. To directly answer your question, no you shouldn't be prevented from returning based on what you've shared.

[Dravin]

I have already done that, and I was responding to the original post, but I still struggle, not because of lack of testimony but for fear that I have gone beyond the acceptable and the long journey I now face to redeem myself in order to reach the point of having my wife sealed to me, but it takes one step at a time. Thank you for your feedback

I think by and large people fear they've gone too far, in the sense of going so far that they are unable to be redeemed, almost universally unnecessarily. If you've curious my line of thought on that can be found in a past post on another thread: http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/47455-can-i-still-saved.html#post681581

As far as the long journey to redeem yourself, keep in mind that you can't. That is to say that it's the Savior that redeems us. You may have a long journey (you know that best), and there may be much you need to do, but the burden of redeeming yourself doesn't rest on your shoulders. It may seem a distinction without a difference, but your burden, such as it is, lies in taking those steps to come unto Christ so that his redeeming grace can cleanse you.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Dravin

[BrendaM]

You say you joined because of the "good values".

Do you have a testimony of the gospel? Of the Book of Mormon? Of the atonement? Or is that not important?

Thank you Leah, for that. The church is full of people who may not be as close to the Lord as they "ought" to be.

If we "quit" because of those people, are we really any better? The purpose of the church is to make bad people good and good people better. Doesn't say perfect.

Sounds to me like you are not letting the Atonement help you in your own personal quest to become a disciple of Christ. There will always be people who try to take advantage of others, whether it is a church or a community food bank. It's not right, but it happens. Should that affect my relationship with my God? No, it should not. I will go to church, partake of the sacrament and partake of the Spirit that can be in the meetings if I am prepared to partake.

I understand your feelings....but truly, ask yourself, are you a disciple of Christ? Then if you are, let go of your "visual" offences and move on.

[rameumptom]

Who are we to judge others who wish to be baptized? Isn't it up to the Lord to make that judgment?

When Peter was told to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, who surely had a different culture than the Jews, many had a problem with it. Some insisted they be circumcised, while others refused to sit with the Gentile converts.

When I lived in Alabama, and we opened the missionary work to the black community in the 1980s, there were lots of people ready to judge them by their own standards, not allowing them the opportunity to grow into the Church and a new Mormon culture.

If we are going to over-judge people because they have tattoos, different dress, etc., even though they are worthy in all other ways, then perhaps our problem is with our own testimonies. As Paul noted, we can do many mighty works, but if we do not have charity, we are nothing.

[applepansy]

I have already done that, and I was responding to the original post, but I still struggle, not because of lack of testimony but for fear that I have gone beyond the acceptable and the long journey I now face to redeem myself in order to reach the point of having my wife sealed to me, but it takes one step at a time. Thank you for your feedback

I don't believe you can go to far and not be able to come back. Christ forgives us all.

Within our ward's boundaries is an AA Camp. Our Ward Missionaries pick up anyone who wants to attend church. Some of these men are very rough. But we welcome them with open arms and most everyone approaches them, welcomes them. We also live in a recreation area so often we see shorts, tshirts and flip flips at church because they forgot to bring their Sunday clothes on their vacation.

We should welcome everyone. I'm glad I live in a ward who does.

[yjacket]

My 2 cents. SisterSarah, I feel for you. I have 2 main comments:

1) As others have noted, speak with your Bishop. Generally with these types of things it is either a lack of leadership that persuades (sometimes with a stick, if necessary) members to meet appropriate standards and/or it is a new a lack of strength in the ward -- maybe lots of new members, etc. It sounds like you have issues with 1 or 2 individuals in particular. If the Bishop doesn't work, you can always talk to them about how their actions offend you . . . something about when taking offense talk between thy brother and thee . . .

2) Roll with it! Unless they are in a leadership roll and just spouting off apostasy, just roll with it.

For a time period, I was in a . . . very interesting ward . . . shall we say. I heard from the pulpit during Fast & Testimony meeting "I can only sustain the Mission President with my left hand, 'cuz he's not doing a good job", "All babies are evil except Mormon babies", and I was treated to a rendition of the Holy Ghost dance on stage among other things (with the Bishop kindly leading the dancer off the stage-exit stage left!!). It was very interesting. My wife and I always had something to talk about after church. It provided many hours of conversation :-). I guess we could have gone inactive b/c the Gospel wasn't being taught in its pure form. We could have gone to the Bishop and thrown a hissy-fit -- both of us are RMs and we had 1 small child at the time. But you know, I look back fondly at my time in that ward. While I wasn't being "taught" persay, I did learn more about the Gospel personally, how to be more forgiving, more kind, more charitable to those who didn't have as much knowledge as I did in the Gospel. In fact, my old Bishop from that ward became a Stake President . . .

Ultimately you've got a few choices: Go to the Bishop and hope he solves the problem; go to the person and talk to them about it; or Roll with it and become a Rock in the Gospel that others can look to as an example; move to a different ward; or you could go inactive.

While I completely understand how this can be extremely annoying, frustrating, disappointing, etc. I personally think it's a little much to go inactive over something like this. IMO, going inactive over something like this speaks to a bigger issue with your own testimony.

But that's my 2 cents . . . and maybe I'm full of it.

[All_Apologies]

Years ago, I did see a person at church in California that used to be a man but underwent a sex change to become a woman. I'm just sayin'....

Just my view--I am extremely imperfect. If the people at church knew about some of the things I've done in my past, I don't know if they would even talk to me at all.

Nevertheless...

If anyone did know more about me and had a problem with me attending church, my attitude toward their attitude would be, "Screw them. I'm going for me, because I need to go. So I don't care what they think, really." It seems to me that church is like a hospital. People go there because they are unwell and need healing from the Spirit of God. I am unwell spiritually. I have found healing from attending church.