The WofW and meat

[carlimac]

Does anyone follow closely the part of the Word of Wisdom where we're only to eat meat during times of winter or famine? We don't follow that in our family at all. I'm wondering if those summer BBQs will keep us out of the celestial kingdom.

Actually, Doctrine and Covenants 89:12 uses the word "flesh" of beasts and fowls. So hmmm...does that mean we can eat meat (the muscle part) all year but not the skin unless it's winter? So no KFC with skin on unless it's snowing?

OK, I'm, being a little facetious but not completely. We really don't hear much about the meat issue from the pulpit.

[C_T_R]

If eating meat is wrong, then I don't wanna be right. Totally kidding.

I know it says to eat it sparingly. I think there's a reason we don't hear a lot about it.. It's an issue of moderation with everything. But eating meat (with skin) isn't bad. I think the goal of the WoW is to give guidelines for respecting your body.

I would actually choose to be a vegetarian if my body would let me. I've often said if I was a dinosaur I'd be an herbavore. But the fact is I literally need it. My body has crazy allergies and there's only a few things I can actually eat.

I think God is much more interested in how we treat others and how we work to overcome the natural man than anything else.

[beefche]

Yeah, I think since I eat corn and oats, I'll have to settle for the Terrestial kingdom.

[carlimac]

Yeah, I think since I eat corn and oats, I'll have to settle for the Terrestial kingdom.

You're just reading verse 17. Go back and read verses 14 and 16. "All grains..."

[Guest]

This is a tough one for me, since my health is tremendously improved when I'm on a low-carb diet.

[beefche]

You're just reading verse 17. Go back and read verses 14 and 16. "All grains..."

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

And according to Webster dictionary: NEVERTHELESS: in spite of that; however

[Guest]

Postum!

[skippy740]

I'm wondering if those summer BBQs will keep us out of the celestial kingdom.

I want to address this part because I think we're taking this doctrine just a little too far.

It isn't about will eating meat keep us from heaven - directly.

It is about:

- Keeping to a health code that separates us from the world.

- Holiness to the Lord in respect to our bodies

- Keeping our bodies clean and healthy to enjoy the Spirit

As such, the blessings are:

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Essentially, the blessings are:

- Increased health. Yes, we all know people who reach the age of 100 who smoked since they were a teenager. However, your chances are much greater for long and higher quality life if we follow the Word of Wisdom.

- Wisdom & Treasures of Knowledge: I think it's harder to have the Spirit if you aren't treating your body like a temple. Not impossible, but harder. And we know that it is by the Spirit that teaches and testifies of the things of God.

- Destroying angel shall pass by: Think of the dangers of alcohol and substance abuse. Think of the affect it has on families. That is one such "destroying angel".

Even then, we focus on the things to abstain from in the WoW. Partaking of these things will keep us from enjoying the blessings of the temple and may be inviting the destroying angel into your home.

I don't think that not following the WoW will keep you from the Celestial Kingdom, but it'll sure make it more difficult for ourselves in this life to make good choices if we do not have the companionship of the Holy Spirit to help us.

[carlimac]

Ok, then should I not have a temple recommend if I eat meat in summer? I'm just wondering if anyone knows why this part is so often glossed over or not addressed at all. I'm not going to appeal to the first presidency about it or anything because I'm definitely not a vegetarian and don't have a great desire to be one. But the fact that it's in there but not emphasized does bother my conscience.

[carlimac]

Postum!

I prefer Pero- especially mixed with hot chocolate. Yum!

[skippy740]

Let's look at verse 12 and see what we can learn:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

Sparingly has a footnote. It says TG Temperance.

When I click on that link, it gives some examples. (I trimmed these down.)

Prov. 23:21glutton shall come to poverty

Prov. 23:30They that tarry long at the wine

Matt. 23:25they are full of extortion and excess

Titus 2:2

men be sober, grave, temperate

1 Pet. 4:3we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine

Alma 7:23being temperate in all things

Alma 38:10; D&C 12:8be diligent and temperate in all things

D&C 59:20be used, with judgment, not to excess

I'm seeing a common theme and can make a conclusion: Personally, I see nothing wrong with a good BBQ or other feast. But if that's the way you eat every meal every day, I think that is not the way the Lord would want us to live.

[pam]

Ok, then should I not have a temple recommend if I eat meat in summer? I'm just wondering if anyone knows why this part is so often glossed over or not addressed at all. I'm not going to appeal to the first presidency about it or anything because I'm definitely not a vegetarian and don't have a great desire to be one. But the fact that it's in there but not emphasized does bother my conscience.

I suppose then that we would have entire wards that aren't worthy of temple recommends. Every ward I've been in has summer bbq's that include meat.

[JudoMinja]

So you're concerned specifically about verse 13?

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

There is a footnote with the word "used" that links to D&C 59:16-20:

"Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;

Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion." (bold added)

I believe the reason meat was considered to be "in season" during the winter or cold months because that was when it was possible to store it without it spoiling or going rotten. Since we now have ice-boxes and freezers that allow us to keep meat cold year round, it is technically "in season" all year, just as many fruits and veggies we now eat are considered in season all year because technology has made them more readily available.

So, we make it a point to focus more on the word "sparingly" in verse 12. We strive to make sure we are eating in moderation, not in excess, exercising temperence. Although... it is quite possible there are added benefits to eating foods with their natural times "in season", which would include only eating meat in the winter. However, doing this would require some added effort and research- perhaps only getting your food fresh from a farmers market instead of a supermarket and hunting/fishing for your meat instead of purchasing it.... It's something I've considered trying myself, but have yet to take the time to make the changes to my lifestyle/diet and try it out.

[beefche]

Ok, then should I not have a temple recommend if I eat meat in summer? I'm just wondering if anyone knows why this part is so often glossed over or not addressed at all.

Probably the same reason we don't have a check off list of foods to eat or not eat, movies to watch or not watch, or a myriad of other things people often wonder about. You cannot be commanded in ALL things.

I taught about the WoW today in YW. My main point about the lesson was that the Lord has given us the gift of the Holy Ghost. That means, as members of His church, we have the right and privilege to be taught and guided by His Spirit. While the Lord has given us some specific revelations on our health code, He has not given us all things about it. We must seek His will for ourselves.

So, if you think having a BBQ isn't right for you and the family, then don't have one. I don't see why the prophets need to focus on specifics of the WoW. In fact, other than teaching about the general health code, I don't see the prophets speaking on specifics of the WoW much today.

[beefche]

I want to address this part because I think we're taking this doctrine just a little too far.

It isn't about will eating meat keep us from heaven - directly.

It is about:

- Keeping to a health code that separates us from the world.

- Holiness to the Lord in respect to our bodies

- Keeping our bodies clean and healthy to enjoy the Spirit

As such, the blessings are:

Essentially, the blessings are:

- Increased health. Yes, we all know people who reach the age of 100 who smoked since they were a teenager. However, your chances are much greater for long and higher quality life if we follow the Word of Wisdom.

- Wisdom & Treasures of Knowledge: I think it's harder to have the Spirit if you aren't treating your body like a temple. Not impossible, but harder. And we know that it is by the Spirit that teaches and testifies of the things of God.

- Destroying angel shall pass by: Think of the dangers of alcohol and substance abuse. Think of the affect it has on families. That is one such "destroying angel".

Even then, we focus on the things to abstain from in the WoW. Partaking of these things will keep us from enjoying the blessings of the temple and may be inviting the destroying angel into your home.

I don't think that not following the WoW will keep you from the Celestial Kingdom, but it'll sure make it more difficult for ourselves in this life to make good choices if we do not have the companionship of the Holy Spirit to help us.

One of the things I taught today in our YW lesson on WoW, was that the destroying angel isn't all about destroying our body. It is also about destroying our spirit. While this revelation talks about the temporal salvation of His children, we know that all things have a temporal and spiritual side.

I think Skippy said it well, it also is a way to separate ourselves from the world. Look at Daniel and his companions in the OT. They separated themselves by their health code. By being obedient to the Lord's health code (by the prophet revealed commandments as well as those revealed to us by personal revelation), we can avoid the designs of evil men and draw closer to our God.

[carlimac]

I believe the reason meat was considered to be "in season" during the winter or cold months because that was when it was possible to store it without it spoiling or going rotten. Since we now have ice-boxes and freezers that allow us to keep meat cold year round, it is technically "in season" all year, just as many fruits and veggies we now eat are considered in season all year because technology has made them more readily available.

So, we make it a point to focus more on the word "sparingly" in verse 12. We strive to make sure we are eating in moderation, not in excess, exercising temperence. Although... it is quite possible there are added benefits to eating foods with their natural times "in season", which would include only eating meat in the winter. However, doing this would require some added effort and research- perhaps only getting your food fresh from a farmers market instead of a supermarket and hunting/fishing for your meat instead of purchasing it.... It's something I've considered trying myself, but have yet to take the time to make the changes to my lifestyle/diet and try it out.

Thank you! I knew there was an explanation. I just couldn't remember what it was.

[carlimac]

So you're concerned specifically about verse 13?

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

There is a footnote with the word "used" that links to D&C 59:16-20:

"Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;

Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion." (bold added)

I believe the reason meat was considered to be "in season" during the winter or cold months because that was when it was possible to store it without it spoiling or going rotten. Since we now have ice-boxes and freezers that allow us to keep meat cold year round, it is technically "in season" all year, just as many fruits and veggies we now eat are considered in season all year because technology has made them more readily available.

So, we make it a point to focus more on the word "sparingly" in verse 12. We strive to make sure we are eating in moderation, not in excess, exercising temperence. Although... it is quite possible there are added benefits to eating foods with their natural times "in season", which would include only eating meat in the winter. However, doing this would require some added effort and research- perhaps only getting your food fresh from a farmers market instead of a supermarket and hunting/fishing for your meat instead of purchasing it.... It's something I've considered trying myself, but have yet to take the time to make the changes to my lifestyle/diet and try it out.

Thank you! I knew there must be an explanation. I think I remember now hearing this before. Makes sense. I hope it's not simply a justification. I guess if we really were to completely avoid meat in the summer, we'd be hearing more about it from our leaders.

[james12]

How many overweight Americans, that have no need to eat more meat, continue to eat and kill these animals? I don't think the Lord can be that well pleased. There may come a time, perhaps during the Millennium, when the direction to eat meat sparingly is followed more precisely. After all, how is the wolf to live with the lamb and the calf with the lion if we cannot ourselves stop killing this animals when we don't even need the food?

[Misshalfway]

I think this is a really important thread. And I think we need to talk about it more in the church. A lot more. Just talking about the "do not" list and congratulating ourselves cuz caffinated soda is now "Ok"....is completely missing half the point.

The more I study, the more I feel that the WofW was a code of protection to us. We live in a day and age where addictions of all kinds are common place. We have epidemic health problems such as heart disease and diabetes. I really think the WofW is designed to help us with all of these things. And I agree that it is about the health of the spirit as well as the body, but lets not forget the importance of the body!

I've just watched a video called "Forks Over Knives" (linked below). It talks about how the Western diet with high consumption of animal based products and low focus on fruit, veggies, and whole grains is making us fat and sick and dead.

So, I don't know. The WofW doesn't say to eliminate meat. But it does say "sparingly". And it emphasizes veggies, fruits, and whole grains. I don't think the WofW advocates high carbs. We need the right kinds of carbs. Not all the processed refined stuff.

And I don't like the implication that suggesting such a shift makes everyone unworthy to have a temple recommend. God said He would not command in all things. I think this idea applies here. God isn't going to regulate everything. He gives us each the stewardship of our own bodies. And he let's imperfect people go to the temple because we need it! If a person wants to drown their body with soda pop and steak, I don't think God needs to punish the person. The tired, fat, sick thing does a pretty good job on its own.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Sorry....forgot the link.

Forks Over Knives | Official Website

This is the official webpage. You can locate the film at the top. It's also on Hulu.

[carlimac]

To James and MissH. I think you're right. Our nation especially, consumes way too many foods that aren't good for us. Within the Church, we should know better. It's practically spelled right out for us. But I find that obesity is highest among those who haven't been educated about diet. And the food industry isn't doing them any favors for the most part. Junk food is way too accessible

Another factor in our poor diets might be stress!! Is there any one out there who feels less stressed now than they did 20-30 years ago? I should be less stressed. My kids are older and more independent. We are doing OK financially. Both my parents have passed away so I don't have elder parental care to worry about. My relationships with my family are all pretty decent right now, and yet I feel more anxiety about life and our future now than I ever have. I turn to chocolate or some other quick sugar or comfort foods more now than I did in my 30's when life was exhausting all the time. Why is that? Probably because it's there and quick and easy. I'm not overweight but I certainly don't feel as good as I did 25 years ago.

Edited October 22, 2012 by carlimac

[Misshalfway]

To James and MissH. I think you're right. Our nation especially, consumes way too many foods that aren't good for us. Within the Church, we should know better. It's practically spelled right out for us. But I find that obesity is highest among those who haven't been educated about diet. And the food industry isn't doing them any favors for the most part. Junk food is way too accessible

Another factor in our poor diets might be stress!! Is there any one out there who feels less stressed now than they did 20-30 years ago? I should be less stressed. My kids are older and more independent. We are doing OK financially. Both my parents have passed away so I don't have elder parental care to worry about. My relationships with my family are all pretty decent right now, and yet I feel more anxiety about life and our future now than I ever have. I turn to chocolate or some other quick sugar or comfort foods more now than I did in my 30's when life was exhausting all the time. Why is that? Probably because it's there and quick and easy. I'm not overweight but I certainly don't feel as good as I did 25 years ago.

Yeah. This "forks over knives" documentary talks about how the diary and meat groups are so powerful in Washington and how they get all the funding. The food guide pyramid was even changed to support these two industries.

Interesting.

[MarginOfError]

It's probably worth considering historical context when evaluating things like this.

In the original revelation, drinks like beer and wine were not expressly forbidden (that prohibition came about after Prohibition). One reason for such an allowance could be that such beverages were safe to drink in areas where potable water was a limited resource. (interesting side note, Judaism allows for the consumption of alcohol, but Islam does not. Islam was founded after the Arabs discovered coffee--which required boiling the water).

Some have speculated that the language of the Word of Wisdom suggests that refrigeration may have been at the heart of the issue (not an interpretation I fully support). There's also the fact that meat was kind of expensive, and if you slaughtered a cow, you had to process all of the meat or eat it quickly. Eating meat frequently could have been a symbol of wealth and largesse. The introduction of refrigeration, refrigerated transportation, and large meat processing plants made meat a lot cheaper and a lot more accessible.

Personally, I think we tend to eat too much meat. I believe this of my own family as well, and we've had discussions of cutting back. It's hard to argue, however, that including meat in your diet has some health benefits. The thing we aren't clear on is how much is the right balance. My advice to anyone concerned about this topic is to study what the experts have to say and make a decision best on the best information you have available. I think the Lord is far more forgiving of an honestly erring diet than an ignorantly blissful diet.

[RMGuy]

Just my own personal thoughts. I find the WoW fascinating. The historical perspective regarding it, teh subsequent clarifications, and the way we apply it.

I think that you bring up a good point. We do tend to spend significantly greater amounts of time focusing on the "don't" than on the "do". I put those in quotes for the following reason.

Doctrine and Covenants section 89 is a direct revelation from the Lord in response to an inquiry from the Prophet Joseph. For me personally, I believe that the Lord can say what he would like. He doesn't need us to change or modify what he said. So, let's see what he did say.

Verse

1: Tells us that this is for the High Priests and also the saints in Zion.

2: This a revelation, but not a commandment (we don't begin to treat it as such until the 1930's), and it is for temporal salvation - (we then make it a requirement for temple attendance in the early-mid twentieth century).

3: A principle with a promise.

5: Wine and strong drink is not good, except for sacraments. We used wine in sacrament until the 1920's.

6: What wine we do use should be of your own make

7: Strong drinks are not to be taken internally

8: Tobacco is not good for man

9: Hot drinks are not for the body or belly (interesting, I'm sure both the Lord and Joseph knew the words for Coffee and Tea, but they chose not to use them here). These leads to the questions regarding hot chocolate, postum, iced tea, etc. It seems to me that the Lord was pretty clear here.

10: Wholesome herbs are good.

11: Herbs and fruit should be used with prudence and thanksgiving

12: Flesh of animals to be used sparingly, but with thanksgiving - Again, he can say what he wants...I think this is pretty clear. I don't know how we write of meat with every meal, or with most meals as sparingly

13: They should not be used only in times of winter, cold, or famine. - Even clearer.

14: Grain is for the use of man as the staff of life and for the animals

15: The Lord reiterates the prohibition on eating animals except in times of famine and excess hunger.

16: Grain and fruits of the vine are good for man

17: Specifically wheat for man, Barley for useful animals and for mild drinks (beer). We really don't follow the last part of that.

18: The promise: if you do these things and are obedient you shall have health,

19: Wisdom, and knowledge.

20: Run and not be weary, walk and not faint.

21: Destroying angel shall pass by them.

There is a lot there that we ignore, some that we have interpreted different than it was written, and some that we follow quite closely. Just calling them as I see them.

-RM

[Marlin1]

Man I like meat!