Does the Rebuke have a place within our lives?

[Backroads]

Yesterday I finished a rather excellent book on forgiveness. It was written from a very general Christian/professional counseling perspective rather than being LDS, but raised many great thoughts.

One of them was something I rarely if ever hear about in LDS gospel discussions, and the author noticed its rarity in general Christian behavior as well.

The author believed that being able to rebuke someone for their sinful behavior is sometimes necessary and good. We often try so hard to love and forgive others no matter what that we slack off on reminding them to repent.

Is my view off? Do you think we need to be able to rebuke others?

[skalenfehl]

Yes, but swiftly and with love:

D&C 121

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy

Furthermore, why the Lord rebukes us:

D&C 95: 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

2 Wherefore, ye must needs be chastened and stand rebuked before my face;

[Gramajane]

I think the word "rebuke", might be better replaced with "recall" -- like to righteousness?

Even the Savior said "Go, and sin no more" to the woman taken in adultery.

He didn't say-- go on you way- with no word about that what she HAD been doing was wrong.

We can with love, encourage and entreat but we SURE need the Holy Spirit with us that we not have any spirit of that we are better than they are, because of their poor choice actions.

Maybe more (if it is true?) we/I miss you? or You seem less happy/at peace or ?

[Dravin]

Yes, but swiftly and with love:

Thank you for posting that Skalenfehl, D&C 121 was the first scripture that popped into my head upon reading the OP.

The author believed that being able to rebuke someone for their sinful behavior is sometimes necessary and good. We often try so hard to love and forgive others no matter what that we slack off on reminding them to repent.

How does this book classify a rebuke? Do you feel that D&C 121 roughly describes what the author is talking about? Or do you get the feel of some other sense of rebuke, and if so could you do your best to describe it. Or if possible quote it? It's just there is a wide range of what qualifies as a rebuke, as it's basically any relatively sharp disapproval or correction of behavior. There is a world between a sharp "No!" to a child about to touch a hot stove and publicly denouncing some girl as a whore who needs to repent of her hellish ways, but both are rebukes.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Dravin

[beefche]

I think it's also important to point out that "sharpness" does not mean with loud voice or harsh words. Sharpness means with clarity.

[Backroads]

Thank you for posting that Skalenfehl, D&C 121 was the first scripture that popped into my head upon reading the OP.

How does this book classify a rebuke? Do you feel that D&C 121 roughly describes what the author is talking about? Or do you get the feel of some other sense of rebuke, and if so could you do your best to describe it. Or if possible quote it? It's just there is a wide range of what qualifies as a rebuke, as it's basically any relatively sharp disapproval or correction of behavior. There is a world between a sharp "No!" to a child about to touch a hot stove and publicly denouncing some girl as a whore who needs to repent of her hellish ways, but both are rebukes.

The author, of course, does not use the D&C, but he used Biblical scriptures that, yes, I do believe support the same ideas. I will quote it later when I'm at home and have the book (though he had an entire chapter on the matter). What I did like is that he described the cases when a rebuke is appropriate and how to do it. There was no denouncing in his case--his focus was on reminding others of what is correct.

Other thought... how many of us feel comfortable rebuking others?

[Connie]

This is a common theme in LDS scripture, particularly the D&C as many have already mentioned. Just a few days ago i was reading D&C 6. This is a revelation to Oliver Cowdery, and in verse 19 he is told to "admonish [Joseph Smith] in his faults and also receive admonition of him."

This is also a common theme in the Book of Mormon. I am reminded of Alma's admonishment of his son, Corianton. Alma 39 is particularly interesting in that regard. Also Nephi and how often he had to speak to his brothers. 1 Nephi 15 and 16, while building the boat, while on the boat, and in 2 Nephi 4:13-14 where he speaks of being constrained to admonish them.

I am also reminded of that famous story about Brigham Young and his reaction when publicly admonished by Joseph Smith. I think how we react to the rebuking of our fellow imperfect humans is a mark of our level of humility or lack thereof.

[Guest]

Other thought... how many of us feel comfortable rebuking others?

Happens on LDS.net quite a lot... so I guess we're pretty comfortable with it. My current bishop does it a lot on the pulpit too.

I have no problem telling somebody what they're doing goes against what I believe is right and asking them to think about it. I also don't have a problem having that somebody tell me I'm an idiot. We're still friends (if we were friends to begin with).

[Vort]

Happens on LDS.net quite a lot... so I guess we're pretty comfortable with it. My current bishop does it a lot on the pulpit too.

I have no problem telling somebody what they're doing goes against what I believe is right and asking them to think about it. I also don't have a problem having that somebody tell me I'm an idiot. We're still friends (if we were friends to begin with).

I have always viewed a "rebuke" on a discussion list as an entirely different thing from a rebuke IRL. I am somewhat rethinking that distinction now, but I still maintain that disagreeing with someone on a discussion list and pointing out flaws in their argument is not quite the same thing as doing so in someone's home or a Church environment, since that's more the nature of a discussion list.

[Guest]

I have always viewed a "rebuke" on a discussion list as an entirely different thing from a rebuke IRL. I am somewhat rethinking that distinction now, but I still maintain that disagreeing with someone on a discussion list and pointing out flaws in their argument is not quite the same thing as doing so in someone's home or a Church environment, since that's more the nature of a discussion list.

No, "disagreeing" is not what I'm talking about. Rebuke - happens a lot in lds.net. I'd say most of it is in the Advice forum.

[applepansy]

Yes, but swiftly and with love:

D&C 121

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy

Furthermore, why the Lord rebukes us:

D&C 95: 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

2 Wherefore, ye must needs be chastened and stand rebuked before my face;

Thanks Skalen. As I read the opening post that was the exact scripture which came to mind.

[applepansy]

Other thought... how many of us feel comfortable rebuking others?

When correcting someone I think we need to first ask ourselves "What is my sphere of influence and responsibility?" and "Is there a beam in my eye?"

In my home, of course I should rebuke, admonish and call to repentance - TREACH. In Church walking down the hall with someone and saying "You're wrong and need to fix your life" is not charitable. There is always a time and a place and when correcting someone we should always be loving and humble.

I remember being a young mother who didn't understand that yelling didn't get anything done faster. I wish I could do it over. Besides, when you lean in a whisper its scarier than yelling

[Backroads]

I have always viewed a "rebuke" on a discussion list as an entirely different thing from a rebuke IRL. I am somewhat rethinking that distinction now, but I still maintain that disagreeing with someone on a discussion list and pointing out flaws in their argument is not quite the same thing as doing so in someone's home or a Church environment, since that's more the nature of a discussion list.

I think the basic concept is the same, but I feel a lot more comfortable doing so in the safety of the online world.

[Guest]

In Church walking down the hall with someone and saying "You're wrong and need to fix your life" is not charitable. There is always a time and a place and when correcting someone we should always be loving and humble.

I'm not so sure what you mean. If somebody at church tells me while we're walking down the hall, "You're wrong and need to fix your life", in those exact words, I wouldn't consider it uncharitable. Of course, it depends on the intent behind the words - if the person truly cares about what I'm doing or if the person is just being a snot.

[Backroads]

I'm not so sure what you mean. If somebody at church tells me while we're walking down the hall, "You're wrong and need to fix your life", in those exact words, I wouldn't consider it uncharitable. Of course, it depends on the intent behind the words - if the person truly cares about what I'm doing or if the person is just being a snot.

Is the person coming from a point of judging or just trying to help? If it's the latter, I think the rebuke might be in coming. It's better than saying "There, there, it's okay you are out committing all these horrible sins. I love you and you don't have to change."

[Guest]

I think the basic concept is the same, but I feel a lot more comfortable doing so in the safety of the online world.

Oh! I get it now. IRL means In Real Life. Duh!

Yeah, my rule has always been - and this is something I tell my kids - if you can't say it in person, you can't say it to that person online either. If you want to hide behind anonymity, then you need to address it in blog form (which I consider similar to writing a book)... something with a general audience.

[Backroads]

Oh! I get it now. IRL means In Real Life. Duh!

Yeah, my rule has always been - and this is something I tell my kids - if you can't say it in person, you can't say it to that person online either. If you want to hide behind anonymity, then you need to address it in blog form (which I consider similar to writing a book)... something with a general audience.

I agree! That's an attitude to change. I think I'm in the right to do my admonishing as I might do online, but I ought to work on taking it to the real world.

[Guest]

Is the person coming from a point of judging or just trying to help? If it's the latter, I think the rebuke might be in coming. It's better than saying "There, there, it's okay you are out committing all these horrible sins. I love you and you don't have to change."

Or not saying anything at all leaving me to flounder on my own.

[Guest]

I agree! That's an attitude to change. I think I'm in the right to do my admonishing as I might do online, but I ought to work on taking it to the real world.

It's difficult to do. The natural inclination of anybody is to put up their defenses even when they see that what you say is right. And those defenses usually come with teeth that bite you. As somebody who really cares and loves the other person, you will have to be strong enough to put yourself out there to be bitten and love the person anyway, regardless of what he does with the admonition.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

One of them was something I rarely if ever hear about in LDS gospel discussions, and the author noticed its rarity in general Christian behavior as well.

I think it is a matter of perception--I think we rebuke all the time and I feel we should rebuke less and love more.

I think it is also possible that the way we percieve or "offer" rebuke has much to do with our personalities. I am not real familiar with the Color Code--but enough to say that I think Red personalities would be more comfortable with giving and receiving rebukes than White for example.

[Dravin]

I have always viewed a "rebuke" on a discussion list as an entirely different thing from a rebuke IRL. I am somewhat rethinking that distinction now, but I still maintain that disagreeing with someone on a discussion list and pointing out flaws in their argument is not quite the same thing as doing so in someone's home or a Church environment, since that's more the nature of a discussion list.

It should be noted that even online, if it isn't sharp, then it isn't a rebuke. That is to say if it is simply disapproval or criticism it isn't a rebuke, not unless we're going to water down the word rebuke to be, "Not agreeing with someone and voicing such". I think this is another one of those discussions that is going to be riddled with connotative definitions even if we were all to agree on a denotative one.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Dravin

[Windseeker]

Elder D. Todd Christofferson gave a great talk that is related to this.

“As Many as I Love, I Rebuke and Chasten†- general-conference

Here are some highlights

...I would like to speak of one particular attitude and practice we need to adopt if we are to meet our Heavenly Father’s high expectations. It is this: willingly to accept and even seek correction. Correction is vital if we would conform our lives “unto a perfect man, [that is,] unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13). Paul said of divine correction or chastening, “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth” (Hebrews 12:6).

...Sadly, much of modern Christianity does not acknowledge that God makes any real demands on those who believe in Him, seeing Him rather as a butler “who meets their needs when summoned” or a therapist whose role is to help people “feel good about themselves.”2 It is a religious outlook that “makes no pretense at changing lives.”3 “By contrast,” as one author declares, “the God portrayed in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures asks, not just for commitment, but for our very lives. The God of the Bible traffics in life and death, not niceness, and calls for sacrificial love, not benign whatever-ism.”

...The Lord declared, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent” (Revelation 3:19). Again He said, “And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer” (D&C 105:6; see also D&C 1:27).

...Correction, hopefully gentle, can come from one’s spouse. Elder Richard G. Scott, who just addressed us, remembers a time early in his marriage when his wife, Jeanene, counseled him to look directly at people when he spoke to them. “You look at the floor, the ceiling, the window, anywhere but in their eyes,” she said. He took that gentle rebuke to heart, and it made him much more effective in counseling and working with people.

...Parents can and must correct, even chasten, if their children are not to be cast adrift at the mercy of a merciless adversary and his supporters.

...President Boyd K. Packer has observed that when a person in a position to correct another fails to do so, he is thinking of himself. Remember that reproof should be timely, with sharpness or clarity, “when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy” (D&C 121:43).

[mrmarklin]

I was formally "rebuked" by a "born again christian" on another discussion forum once, who disagreed with my position on the point of doctrine we were discussing. He really thought I was in a position of going to hell.

I don't think there is any place for it in LDS doctrine.

[Guest]

I was formally "rebuked" by a "born again christian" on another discussion forum once, who disagreed with my position on the point of doctrine we were discussing. He really thought I was in a position of going to hell.

I don't think there is any place for it in LDS doctrine.

In his belief system, he truly believes you are headed to hell. My mom thinks the same way and rebukes me a lot for it. Which is fine by me, I know where she's coming from and I know she is just worried for my eternal soul.

That doesn't mean LDS doesn't have a place for "rebuking" (is that a word?). We simply believe that all men have the privilege of worshipping God according to their own conscience, so disagreeing with Born Again doctrine does not make Born Again Christians worthy of rebuke. But, if my Born Again Christian cousin would ever beat up his wife, I'll be the first one to give him a sharp rebuke.

[skippy740]

I think it depends on WHO is rebuking WHOM. MrMarklin, you weren't rebuked in the way that the Lord would have us rebuke. You had someone who used the word "rebuke" and "Lord" in the same sentence to try to use some authority to tell you that you are wrong in whatever you were trying to get across.

Some anonymous stranger on the internet... like all of us... probably shouldn't be rebuking anyone - unless it has to do with forum rules. :)

A parent, a bishop, a teacher, a supervisor, maybe even a home teacher or a quorum president... all should be looking out for us and telling us if we aren't on a good path. A good rebuke will cause you to think... not to shame you.

But it shouldn't end with just telling us how well we screwed everything up! If we're in a mess, help coach us out of the mess! Don't leave us thinking that we're a total screw up and that there's no hope or redemption.

Encourage and give good feedback so they know that you are on their side.