Somewhat confused...

[Irock104]

Well a couple months ago out of curiosity I started meeting with local missionaries. We met about 6 or 7 times, but in the end it didn't feel right so we parted ways. So just earlier today I was just looking around on YouTube, and then I saw some videos from this years general conference in the suggestion bar. I was amazed by it, and I was touched by a lot of the speeches. But despite this, there are some things about the mormon faith that just get to me. I don't know what course of action I should take. Any advice?

[marshac]

despite this, there are some things about the mormon faith that just get to me. I don't know what course of action I should take. Any advice?

Are they doctrinal or cultural issues?

[Irock104]

Church history mainly

[marshac]

Church history mainly

Speaking in generalities...

Although facts are facts, you can't forget about the context in which those facts reside- sometimes a bit of context can change everything, so much so that it's often omitted in order to take a few cheap shots at the church. I've spent a lot of time going over church history, and although some of it is inexplicable, I've at least made peace with most of it.

[Irock104]

Well if we're going into specifics

.the fact that most of the witnesses who claimed to see the golden plates left the church, or were excommunicated

.also the fact that Martin Harris said that they never saw the golden plates physically, but with a "spiritual eye"

[Guest]

The only way you're going to get an answer you can rely on is by reading the Book of Mormon yourself and praying to know whether it's true.

[marshac]

Well if we're going into specifics

.the fact that most of the witnesses who claimed to see the golden plates left the church, or were excommunicated

.also the fact that Martin Harris said that they never saw the golden plates physically, but with a "spiritual eye"

Just because a person is excommunicated doesn't mean that they lost their faith in the church- unfortunately early excommunications were political as much as they were anything else. Look at the Laws as an example of this. Terrible circumstances, but they still retained the faith.

As for spiritual eyes- I'll just point you to this from FAIR.

[Blackmarch]

Well a couple months ago out of curiosity I started meeting with local missionaries. We met about 6 or 7 times, but in the end it didn't feel right so we parted ways. So just earlier today I was just looking around on YouTube, and then I saw some videos from this years general conference in the suggestion bar. I was amazed by it, and I was touched by a lot of the speeches. But despite this, there are some things about the mormon faith that just get to me. I don't know what course of action I should take. Any advice?

Whichever course of action that will humble you, invite the spirit, allow you to be receptive of it, and gain insight, inspiration, and answers. When this happens and you get a some very core answers for yourself many of the other things in the religion will become not as important or even matter anymore.

Some of the ways of getting that to happen, is studying, praying, acting on those feelings and inspirations, and testing out the things of God.

[Magen_Avot]

Well if we're going into specifics

.the fact that most of the witnesses who claimed to see the golden plates left the church, or were excommunicated

.also the fact that Martin Harris said that they never saw the golden plates physically, but with a "spiritual eye"

I do understand where you are comming from. I have learned for myself that I should always ask, "Whose fact is it?" What's the context and the important lesson. Everything, and I do honestly mean "everything" has an important gospel lesson.

It is true some were excommunicated. Some also returned,... have you read their story and why those that returned made the decision to return? I don't think the real story is that they fell away. The real story is everyone's story... who will give their whole heart, own will and agency over to the Lord. Who will be forgiving, loving, faithful and compassionate. Who will be born of God and remain faithful to the end? Isn't it Paul who said we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"? We don't do that alone. We have the Savior.

I've been in the church for nearly 44 years and while I have read/heard some amazing/interesting/erronous things in my time, I've never heard that Martin only saw with his "spiritual eyes". That doesn't mean much to me even if that were true, because of my own experiences.

No miracle can change anyone's mind, even seeing the gold plates, let alone the face of God. Faith must precede the miracle so the witnesses must have been ready for that, but even a sign doesn't mean they had to endure to the end to make it true. If God showed me a sign, I'd hope I would endure to the end, but the sign isn't important, nor is someone else's failures or successes really (though I can be inspired by them). IMO, it's a relationship with the Savior that helps keep one steadfast and strong enough to endure to the end. The story of the witnesses have taught me that. How about King David? The scriptures are full of such stories.

The decision has to be yours. It's your journey, the path was marked by Christ. Rely on Him.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[daboosh]

Well if we're going into specifics

.the fact that most of the witnesses who claimed to see the golden plates left the church, or were excommunicated

despite not being with the church for whatever reason, they never denied their witness of the divinity of the book of mormon.

[Guest gopecon]

For me the story of the 3 witnesses is one of the tangible evidences of the truth of what they saw. They never denied what they saw, inspite of the worldly benefits that they might have obtained by doing so.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Irock!

Kudos for wanting to go into important things with your eyes wide open. Our church history is fascinating and often overwhelming. Plenty of stories of fallible man of beeing fallible and human. I spent around a decade delving into criticisms of my faith and it's members, and seeing if we had answers, and what they were, and if I found them acceptable. For the most part, we do have answers/explanations/additional relevant context for just about every single thing that gave me pause, including the two you mention.

FAIR is a good place to go to see what we have to say about things, although the search function isn't the greatest.

FARMS, aka the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home is another good place, with great scholarly reviews of books going back over a decade. But they've got a pretty good search function on their website. (One trick is to document the source of the particular criticism troubling you, and search for reviews of that source.)

But at the end of the day, the only good reason to be a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one. You can't reach that conclusion by looking at our apologetics, you can only get there through prayer and direct communication with your Father in Heaven. The Book of Mormon tells you how to go about doing that.

Happy searching!

[Vort]

Regarding the "spiritual eyes" thing (WARNING: I am speaking beyond my knowledge):

This is a recounting of a third-hand experience. Take it with as large a grain of salt as you wish.

I know a man who shared certain sacred and miraculous experiences with me, which I will not share in any detail. I know this man very well, perhaps as well as I have ever known anyone other than my wife and children, and I have known him all of our lives. I know his weaknesses as well as many of his strengths. I believe what he told me; in fact, I am quite sure he is telling the literal and absolute truth as he perceives it.

Among those experiences, he was able to see things while he was in a non-corporeal state. He described seeing things with "spiritual eyes" -- I believe he may have used those very words, but in any case that was the phenomenon he was describing -- and how such vision was far better, more penetrating, and more real than normal physical vision. It was sight, but it was like super-sight, more powerful and perfect. He was able to discern, not with the blurry and fallible sense of sight that we know, but with something far more precise.

When I read that Martin Harris saw the gold plates with "spiritual eyes", this is what I think of. I believe he was trying to say, not that his vision of the plates was less real or less substantial than seeing the plates would normally have been, but rather the exact opposite: It was far more real and powerful.

This interpretation makes sense if you consider there were two groups of witnesses: The three witnesses and the eight witnesses. The eight witnesses testified of the physical reality and literal existence of the gold plates, but the three witnesses (of whom Martin Harris was one) testified of something far more important: That they were show the plates by an angel and that they actually heard the divine word or testimony that the plates were an actual record of truth. The angel was Moroni, a resurrected being, and standing in the presence of a resurrected being necessitates what the Bible calls a "transfiguration". Paul described transfiguration as an experience where he could not tell whether he was in the body or out of the body. In such a state, I imagine one could and probably would see with the "spiritual eyes" described by my friend.

That's my take on the matter.

[mnn727]

I am not LDS because I have a testimony of the history of the Church; the Church has humans in it and any organization with humans in it will not be perfect or have a perfect history. Only Jesus was perfect the rest of us all fall short of that mark (some of us more than others)

I am LDS because I have a witness that this is where God wants me to be.

[JosephP]

My take on this is from a historical perspective. In every historical event there is evidence that seems to contradict the generally accepted understanding of the event. When there are no contradictions most historians assume the record has been doctored to make everything fall in line with the official version of events. The fact that there are contradictions in church history is very comforting to me, as someone with an above average knowledge of history.

Perhaps a better place to put your doubts and wonderingly is trying to imagine another explanation for the existence of the Book of Mormon. Every alternate explanation is not only full of far more contradictions, but contain complete fabrications and logical fallacies.

But a testimony is not based on intellectual understanding alone. Pray about it, read it, and most importantly live its precepts. From the witness of the Holy Spirit you'll gain a testimony that is unshaken by a comment in a journal almost two centuries ago.

Besides, can we really fault Joseph for being amazed at the success of the church and the loyalty of the members? Is it really so disturbing to know he felt a bit too much pride in seeing what his role as God's instrument had accomplished? Of all his other admitted human faults, this one seems pretty understandable.

Edited January 23, 2013 by JosephP

[M_T_E]

Just because a person is excommunicated doesn't mean that they lost their faith in the church- unfortunately early excommunications were political as much as they were anything else. Look at the Laws as an example of this. Terrible circumstances, but they still retained the faith.

As for spiritual eyes- I'll just point you to this from FAIR.

Ee on the excom part especially, I work with an older lady. She was part of the church, worked in the temple and all. Ended up being excommunicated and despite that she says she still is LDS at heart. I told her if so, she should make amends and attempt to rejoin, but at her age she is hesitant.

[BadWolf]

I honestly can't say Id have remained active in the church if my wife was gang raped (or my husband killed) and my children murdered.

Would I have done?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

Many of the people (no idea of the people you mention specifically, you'd have to look up dates yourself) left the church following army raids and local 'hunting parties'.

Others left while JSjr was incarcerated.

Others during the (malaria? Swamp mosquito born) epidemic.

TODAY people leave for a whole host of reasons, as well. Equally life v death in some countries, all the way to wanting full body tattoos & beer bongs. But seriously, everything in between.

Whether a person leaves or not, and for what reason... Does not affect my faith.

Or, to be completely honest, it strengthens it.

Because people CAN leave.

They are welcome to walk other roads in life.

They are welcome to come back, having come to a decision that its the right thing -for them- to do.

The Articles of Faith are one of my favorite pieces of writing in the church.

#11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

There is a deep and profound respect within the church for personal decision making.

Yes. People left. And will continue to leave. That is their RIGHT in the church. That, to me, is actually a beautiful thing. Agency. And the exercise of it. A them found over and over and over.

The dictates of our own conscience.... Powerful stuff.

<3

[BadWolf]

Oh. I should add... I'm a history (and science) chick. As in its my job to dig up and analyze the past. That SAID:

- I don't blame Protestants for Cromwell

- I don't blame Catholics for the inquisition

- List goes on.

EVERY religion has its past.

To ME, what is far more at hand, is the present (trust me, my students are falling over having seizures as I say this).

Islam, as written, is one of the most progressive religions ever conceived. But Islam is going through a bloody reformation at present. It doesn't matter that -as written- women are granted equal rights with men... When women are in full hijab in some countries, beaten to death, not allowed to work, etc.

In the bible (and US Constitution) slavery is permitted.

At a certain point, history become (here my students fall down twitching again), irrelevant in the face of the present.

History INFORMS our present, but we cannot live as if.

You say you felt moved watching the GC. I suggest you do more of that. Research the PRESENT.

LOL... Inside joke: When asked -post Katrina- about all of the aid workers a resident said the following "You know, 2 groups were simply amazing. The church of Jesus Chist of Latter Day Saints and the Mormons."

Listen to / watch the GCs online, look into church operations today, meet people. This is a LIVING religion. Which is one of the wonders & joys of it. Its easy to get hung up on the mistakes of the past. Better to learn from them.

Edited January 24, 2013 by BadWolf
Fat fingers, teeeeeeeny phone buttons

[brycematheson]

There's a lot of things that have already been mentioned here, but ultimately it comes down to your personal testimony. The beginning stages of the Church was a time that none of us can truly comprehend. I believe that the Prophets of the Church are inspired men if God. But they're also human and they can make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that the Church in its fullness or the restoration thereof didn't happen. Like I said, you'll have to read the Book of Mormon, and sincerely pray to find the truthfulness of it.