Crisis of faith

[G-Money]

Hello, I'm looking for advice on how to strengthen my waning faith. I'm really starting to consider leaving the church.

Recently, I have had a severe drop in my previously extremely high level of faith. There hasn't been any set event, but rather a torrent of deep though on the church, and on myself as a church member.

I love the chruch, I love the fellowship, I love our complete and detailed look into the afterlife. I love the promise of eternal happiness, living with my family, and becoming like unto a God. The Church has always always been a staple in my life that has brought me a lot of joy.

I'm 16, and I have been thinking a lot about my mission. This led me to further scripture study for preparedness. Then I had an idea that shook my faith quite a bit.

If Heavenly Father created us, knows us completely, and knows everything that will come to pass, how did he not create some of us to fail?

Agency suddenly becomes a contrived and irrelevant. This alarmed me immediately. I asked seminary teachers, bishops, stake presidents, my family, no one had been able to provide an answer for me. I started to really despair. For the first time in my life, I seriously have question whether the church is true.

This coupled with a couple of other things. My uncle came out as a homosexual. I didn't know what to think. I don't, despite what my teachers and friends have told me, believe that homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose something that is met with scorn and ridicule? Why would someone who served a full time mission choose something that is clearly outlined as sin? That answer just doesn't do it for me and never will.

And the third entry in this trifecta has been a atheist school teacher telling us in detail why he's right. At first I ignored him, but as I listened, a lot of this really does make sense to me.

My seminary teacher has also been trying to address several known questions in the church, but he has been anything but tactful. I didn't know that blacks couldn't receive the priesthood, I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist, I didn't know any of these, and he just shoved them in my face and said "These are just things that we don't know, so deal with them."

As a last bit, I just want to say: Many of these problems could easily be solved for me. I could accept that there are things that are beyond our comprehension, and just put my trust in God, if I could just feel the spirit. I haven't had any confirmation, and warmth, any whisper, for as long as I can remember. If I could just feel the spirit, I would be content that some things are not understandable.

Please help me build my faith. If I were 18 today, I don't think I could serve a full time mission honestly and with an full heart.

[pam]

Heavenly Father doesn't create anyone to fail.

[skalenfehl]

Please prayerfully read Alma chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon and share what you learn about building faith.

[RipplecutBuddha]

If Heavenly Father created us, knows us completely, and knows everything that will come to pass, how did he not create some of us to fail?

Agency suddenly becomes a contrived and irrelevant. This alarmed me immediately. I asked seminary teachers, bishops, stake presidents, my family, no one had been able to provide an answer for me. I started to really despair. For the first time in my life, I seriously have question whether the church is true.

Suppose a loving father has a son who is experimenting with drugs. That father, before anything else happens, already knows the dark potentials that face his son if he continues on that path. Addiction, social decline, health issues, maybe even death. Does this father's knowledge mean that such a future must happen? Of course not. The same father can also see the bright potentials that lie in wait should his son begin the process of getting illegal drugs out of his system and life. The bright future is no more required than the dark future. However, the father can see both paths depending upon the choice his son makes.

Heavenly Father knows what will happen regardless of the choice we ultimately make. However, he does not compel the choice itself. Our own actions bring about the changes to our future. He allows us the free will to make the choice ourselves and decide our own future. He already knows what all the consequences are of any choice anyone ever makes, but his foreknowledge does not mandate that any one specific future must happen.

We know that if we put our hand in boiling water, we'll get scalded. We know it before we even try it. However we also know that our knowledge doesn't cause us to be hurt. The physics of this life cause the pain, not our knowledge.

This coupled with a couple of other things. My uncle came out as a homosexual. I didn't know what to think. I don't, despite what my teachers and friends have told me, believe that homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose something that is met with scorn and ridicule? Why would someone who served a full time mission choose something that is clearly outlined as sin? That answer just doesn't do it for me and never will.

Being a homosexual is not, by itself, a sin any more than being a habitual thief. It's when we act on these sinful urges that brings the sin about. Regarding homosexuality, as long as your uncle obeys the law of chastity, he is not condemned at all. If he does engage in physical intimacy with another man, that is where the sin begins. The law of chastity states that only a married man and woman may act in such a way. No other exceptions. Each of us has a weak spot in our spiritual armor. Some are more visible than others, but we each have at least one. The atonement of Christ is available to all who will follow him.

And the third entry in this trifecta has been a atheist school teacher telling us in detail why he's right. At first I ignored him, but as I listened, a lot of this really does make sense to me.

The only thing atheists have to argue with is the senses and intelligence of this life, which are both not only very limited (this is scientific fact), but they can also be easily fooled. Otherwise magicians couldn't do what they do and trick us visually. Ventreloquists couldn't fool us into thinking the dummy is really speaking.

We also know, deep inside, that there is far more to our lives than just our senses and intelligence. Love is a very real thing. I don't know that there is any scientific way to quantify it, or 'prove' that someone really is or isn't feeling it at a specific moment. Spirituality is very real. It may not be scientifically explorable, but then much of life is exactly the same, music, art, dance....we all tend to agree on when it's wonderful, or when one is skilled in the arts versus when one is not. Yet again, it can't be explored scientifically. That doesn't mean it's fake, or meaningless.

My seminary teacher has also been trying to address several known questions in the church, but he has been anything but tactful. I didn't know that blacks couldn't receive the priesthood, I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist, I didn't know any of these, and he just shoved them in my face and said "These are just things that we don't know, so deal with them."

Polygamy began (very reluctantly) with Joseph Smith and ended with Lorenzo Snow. It is true we don't know specifically why it was restored. This is the final dispensation of the Gospel of Christ. It is also said in scripture that in this dispensation all things will be restored that were part of the Gospel in the past. Perhaps you weren't aware, but Abraham and Jacob (later called Israel) also had more than one wife, and they were two of God's most prominent prophets.

It is true also that for some time blacks could not hold the priesthood. This principle is probably the least understood because there's no clear point in church history that this became an official position. Joseph himself ordained a black man to be an elder, if I'm correct. What is known is that Spencer W. Kimball was the prophet that was told to bring that limitation to an end.

As a last bit, I just want to say: Many of these problems could easily be solved for me. I could accept that there are things that are beyond our comprehension, and just put my trust in God, if I could just feel the spirit. I haven't had any confirmation, and warmth, any whisper, for as long as I can remember. If I could just feel the spirit, I would be content that some things are not understandable.

I understand exactly where you are at. I went through that process myself. What I realized in my questioning was this; after all this time, surely at least some of these matters have answers. What I found out was that most of them do have clear answers, and the rest have at least partial answers, which is to be expected in a religion that is based on continuing revelation. We just don't know it all because it hasn't all been given to us yet.

Please help me build my faith. If I were 18 today, I don't think I could serve a full time mission honestly and with an full heart.

First of all, don't ever feel bad about having questions. The first step to learning is recognizing that you're missing some information. Questions are the logical next step from there. Second, questioning has never been discouraged in the Gospel of Christ. The very verse in the bible that got Joseph to pray was a direct thought on how to handle questions of faith.

Third, I don't think Christ would like you to be a blind follower. Sure we are expected to use our faith, but the last place Christ wants us to be is in the dark. The pure light of knowledge is what brings vibrance and life to faith. What I would suggest is looking for the answers in the scriptures, conference talks, books by general authorities, even Jesus the Christ by James Talmage will go a long way to helping you out.

I would also suggest a specially focused fast next month with humble and sincere prayer. It's how I found my answers. It's how we all find our answers. Let me give you a bit of return missionary advice. 'Pray like it's all in God's hands, then stand up and act like it's all in yours.' When you show Heavenly Father, through your actions as well as your faith, how important getting an answer is, he'll begin to guide you right where you need to be.

Finally, take heart in knowing that each of us reaches this moment at some point in our lives. Direct challenges to our faith will happen, and as we get older they may happen more and more often. The more we seek to find out the truth on our own, the stronger we'll be against the attacks and doubts hurled our way.

May God be with you always, brother, and don't lose hope. The truth is out there; go find it

[skippy740]

You are getting some great advice. I'm going to help you with a couple of references:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/45876-scriptures-church-history-racism-blacks-scriptures.html

Amazon.com: Shaken Faith Syndrome. Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt (9781893036086): Michael R. Ash: Books

[Vort]

If Heavenly Father created us, knows us completely, and knows everything that will come to pass, how did he not create some of us to fail?

Because our Heavenly Father did not "create" us in the sense you are suggesting. We are self-existent, eternal beings. Our Father "created" us in the sense that he housed our self-existent intelligence in a spiritual body via an act of premortal birth. But our most intimate selves are uncreated, just as God himself is uncreated. The King Follett sermon found in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith introduces this truth.

I don't, despite what my teachers and friends have told me, believe that homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose something that is met with scorn and ridicule? Why would someone who served a full time mission choose something that is clearly outlined as sin? That answer just doesn't do it for me and never will.

Of course homosexual activity is a choice. We are not mindless vegetables. Your uncle has just exactly as much control over where he chooses to put his genitals as I have over where I choose to put mine.

And the third entry in this trifecta has been a atheist school teacher telling us in detail why he's right. At first I ignored him, but as I listened, a lot of this really does make sense to me.

Maybe it's a matter of taste or of personality type. I have never found atheist arguments convincing, and frankly rarely even logical.

My seminary teacher has also been trying to address several known questions in the church, but he has been anything but tactful. I didn't know that blacks couldn't receive the priesthood, I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist, I didn't know any of these, and he just shoved them in my face and said "These are just things that we don't know, so deal with them."

Pity to have an unsympathetic seminary teacher. Or maybe he just doesn't know what to say; that's a pretty common problem.

As a last bit, I just want to say: Many of these problems could easily be solved for me. I could accept that there are things that are beyond our comprehension, and just put my trust in God, if I could just feel the spirit. I haven't had any confirmation, and warmth, any whisper, for as long as I can remember. If I could just feel the spirit, I would be content that some things are not understandable.

Not sure what to tell you here. God speaks to all his children who seek him and will hear him, but some people seem to be more naturally spiritually gifted than others. I'm not one of the "gifted", but I can tell you that even I have heard God's voice, felt his Spirit, and seen his hand act in my life. So I guarantee it's there for you, too. Hope that helps.

[BadWolf]

Oh!!!! I am sooooooo excited for you! :D

This is such a great thing!

And here's why

1) Shaken faith is usually REGRIPPING. Like a gymnast on the bars or rings, or a baseball player on his bat.

Letting go to regrip is SCARY for a lot of people. Kids will usually choose to fall rather than to regrip, a d unfortunately, so do many adults. What Regripping DOES, though, is make it possible for you to advance.

You HAVE to have questions to know the answers, to learn your own truths (instead of just take what's handed to you), and to have CONFIDENCE in those answers.

Robert Frost said "Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence."

What you're doing Right Now is really starting your education.

Because you're applying what you've learned.

(Ahem, that's why med students aren't just flung out with MDs, they have to apply what they've learned, to learn 1000x more outside of academia)

This is NOT saying you haven't been learning & applying

<grin> Just that you're moving onto the next step!!!

So exciting!

Okay... Specific Q's

2) Go Read Mormons and Gays

Its a new website launched by the church (after a few years of working on it) that was JUST launched a few weeks ago. Listen to the Prophet speak in the last GC. Both will give you rather wildly different views than you've been hearing. And straight from the horse's mouth, I hope will be a relief to you.

3) There are 2 main types of Atheism. Atheism & Pseudoathesiam. How do you tell the difference? Atheists don't argue or try to convince you of things. Pseudo atheists have AS MUCH faith in the unseen as the most devout religious person. Because they're saying "nothing" is there. One CANNOT prove a negative. Its like saying "Love doesn't exist because I don't believe in love!!!" Um. Okay, dude. Whatever makes you happy, because I know love exists, because Ive felt love. You cannot make someone feel love. You just CANNOT prove a negative. Your teacher may have never felt God, but that doesn't mean that God isn't real. He has FAITH God isn't real, and is trying to convert people to his faith. Which makes him a Pseudoatheist, but that's okay, right? He's following the dictates of his own conscience, and worshipping in his own way. (Personally, worship by mocking other people's beliefs makes me ill, and I could NEVER do that, but he has the right to worship as he wills and I have the right NOT to worship by tearing down others faiths. To each their own.). Real atheists generally get annoyed by these people. Because the whole point is NOT being ruled by faith.

((A suggestion... The arguments of his that resonate... Are important to you, BECAUSE they resonate. But don't just take his word as to what the ANSWERS are to those questions. Find your OWN. Just as an example: Im a science chick. My religion & my science in NO way conflict. Because they answer 2 different questions. Why & How. Science answers how, my faith answers why. <grin> And they BOTH are filled to the brim with wonder, awe, and excitement! In highschool & lower level college science... I ran into a lot of people who thought science & religion were mutually exclusive. Heck NO! They compliment each other :) I was given this brain to use for good. Fortunately the vast majority of upper level scientists are deeply spiritual. No explanations needed. Simply shared AWE. But I DO know atheists who are atheists purely because they are so Empircle, that if it can't be "how" (how does it work, how big, how old, how fast, how strong... Measured, repeated, controlled), they don't believe in it. Their loss. And their disbelief affects me not at all.

Ditto for all the other arguments commonly presented for atheism (or any other religion). I have my OWN answers, and truths, so Im perfectly content. LOL. Didn't happen overnight. And that doesn't mean that I don't argue with God on a regular basis. I do. (Seriously, spiders??? And Mosquitos? And lets not even get started on Ebola. At least mind numbing grief I can agree with. (Some things are simply WORTH missing, mourning, and fighting for). But that was a pet argument of mine with my Heavenly Father for years and years.

This questioning you're doing now will find your own truths. So you might try praying about his questions that resonate. And research. And, in these as elsewher, find your own answers.))

4). Whoops... Bedtime. I'll come back to 4 L8r

Again, SO excited for you

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Something I think will help is listening to Terryl and Fiona Givens. He has a PhD, and I believe she has a Masters. The reason I mention their education is simply to say that they are deep thinkers, and also faithful people. I believe they have considered your question (about whether or not God created some of us to fail) deeply and can answer it in a way you will find helpful. But you be the judge. They talk a little bit about it in this podcast:

010: Terryl & Fiona Givens – Faith, Doubt, and The God Who Weeps | A Thoughtful Faith

And if you enjoy that, don't miss their book: The God Who Weeps

There is a whole chapter dedicated to this.

I have been in a faith crisis too, for different reasons, the thoughtful faith of the Givens' has been very helpful to me. I hope they can help you find some peace as well.

Badwolf, I love what you said about 'regripping'. Thanks!

Edited January 25, 2013 by LiterateParakeet

[applepansy]

1. Read Scriptures

2. Fast and Pray

3. Doubt your Doubts

[M_T_E]

Doubts can be like weeds in a beautiful garden, if you don't pick them all at the roots they will just continue to come back, spread and eventually kill all the beauty.

Just as apple said, I would recommend you read scriptures as well as Fast and Pray. I fasted for the first time yesterday, and it was a very positive and enlightening experience.

[Matthew0059]

I think the previous posters have done a great job in providing some answers to your intellectual questions that may or may not work for you. Hopefully, they will.

You've pinpointed the real issue, though, with the following statement:

As a last bit, I just want to say: Many of these problems could easily be solved for me. I could accept that there are things that are beyond our comprehension, and just put my trust in God, if I could just feel the spirit. I haven't had any confirmation, and warmth, any whisper, for as long as I can remember. If I could just feel the spirit, I would be content that some things are not understandable.

First of all, if there is anything amiss in your life that you need to repent of, start with that first. Make the temple of your body clean; a fit place for the Spirit of God to dwell. Once you have done all you can to repent of anything and everything amiss in your life, or maybe just upon beginning the repentance process, you will be blessed with an increased confidence in going to the Lord in prayer.

Use that increased confidence to go to your Father in Heaven in prayer, and ask for Him to send His spirit to comfort you and guide you. You are correct that when you receive the Spirit again- and you will, so long as you remain faithful to the light you have already received- all these questions will be made easier to bear.

At that time, you will be more receptive to finding the answer to the questions you seek and help in surmounting your current difficulties. If you have the strength, try fasting as well- done properly, it loosens the bands of Satan and increases your connection to the Spirit of God.

And when you again receive the Spirit, seek diligently to solve the questions you now face or you will once again have to go through this same softening process.

If you want a scriptural example for what you now face, may I suggest Nephi in 1 Nephi 2, where he, unsure about Lehi's commandments and visions, goes to the Lord and has his heart softened to the point where he can believe the words of his father?

God bless you!

-Matthew

[BadWolf]

If Heavenly Father created us, knows us completely, and knows everything that will come to pass, how did he not create some of us to fail?

Agency suddenly becomes a contrived and irrelevant. This alarmed me immediately. .

4)

There's this thing called 'reverse logic'

Sick people take pills

Therefore... If I don't take pills

I won't get sick!

Failing is a SIDE EFFECT of having choices.

Not the inverse.

There were 2 plans on the table.

Agency & Failure

No Agency & No Failure.

Agency is only irrelavent if there is no failure.

_______________

But lets look at failure, for a moment, because that's the scary thing... Right?

Okay. What does 'created to fail' mean? What's the context? Not rich and famous? Not happy? Not old (aka die young)? Not married? Not neurotypical? Not... What? In order to define 'created to fail', one kind of has to describe 'success'. Is there a time limit? Who is judging the failure & success, here? Who do YOU define as having failed?

There's a wee bit of a problem, in that question, because it really DOES require judging another SPIRIT.

Now... I judge people all the time. I judge them as smart, dangerous, kind, cruel, what have you. I have, and do defend the need to judge people. Doesn't mean Im right in my judgements, but it does keep me from jogging through Central Park at night. Keeps me from handing over my son to a convicted pedophile to be babysat. Makes me friends, and enemies, and shapes my life.

But in judging spirits. Thankfully, sooo not my job.

What you're asking, though, REQUIRES judging spirits. As the only way possible to tell if they've passed/failed.

So there's a whole series of problems just from "go", in assuming God DID make some people expressly to fail.

... But lets assume failure is a possibility... Even though we don't know what exactly 'to Fail' means. (Or at least, I don't.)

Because some people/spirits MAY fail... What do we do about that?

As parents, should all parents abort their children?

Should we initiate a genocide?

Should we not allow people to have the CHANCE at success?

Which is more unfair?

Not allowing the chance of success... Or not allowing failure?

______

For myself...

While the idea of failing may be scary

Not being given a shot at success?

Never even given a chance?

Never given a choice, never given the trust to make a choice, much less the right one for myself???

I know what I would choose.

Even knowing the risks.

I know what I would choose.

And its a kind omniscient & omnipotent being that would give me that chance.

Even if he "knew" I'd fail, because he's already read to the end of the book

He let me choose to TRY.

Which would you choose?

[Chrissy3818]

This coupled with a couple of other things. My uncle came out as a homosexual. I didn't know what to think. I don't, despite what my teachers and friends have told me, believe that homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose something that is met with scorn and ridicule? Why would someone who served a full time mission choose something that is clearly outlined as sin? That answer just doesn't do it for me and never will.

To answer this. I look it as both choice and not. You don't choose who you fall in love with or begin to have feelings for (at least I can't choose, and if you can please explain to me how you do it).

But you have the CHOICE to do what you want with it. So in a way homosexual is a choice. The feelings are not a choice, but your actions are. You can be a guy and have a huge crush or even love a guy, but choose nothing to do about it. In my personal opinion I think the bible is talking about choosing to make the choice to act upon the same sex. Not having the feelings for the same sex. Sometimes you can't help who you fall in love with, but you can help what you do with it. Whether its choosing to act upon the love or trying to ignore it as best as you can.

[Tough Grits]

For myself...

While the idea of failing may be scary

Not being given a shot at success?

Never even given a chance?

Never given a choice, never given the trust to make a choice, much less the right one for myself???

I know what I would choose.

Even knowing the risks.

I know what I would choose.

And its a kind omniscient & omnipotent being that would give me that chance.

Even if he "knew" I'd fail, because he's already read to the end of the book

He let me choose to TRY.

Which would you choose?

Thank you for posting this. Poetic in a very not rhyming way.

I know some seriously debate the "omniscience = no agency" line of thought.

I think of it this way: I watch a movie. I watch the characters make choices throughout the whole movie. I watch the movie all the way until the end.

Does knowing the end mean that I took their agency away? No, I just watched. They still made their choices for themselves. I was not in the movie, I just watched. I did not manipulate the characters, I just watched.

Can we really understand the nature of God without being a god? Of course not. We still wonder, but there are things we just cannot, will not know while on this earth.

Apparently God's omnipotence and omniscience allow Him to see all, know all, and do all. He can know our "movie" from beginning to end without it having played yet. But that doesn't mean that he controls those choices. WE still make those choices, but being God, He has to allow us that opportunity to make those choices...good or bad.

Unlike the person who watches a movie and has no interaction or effect on the characters on the screen...God does interact with us...for our good!

He knows how to help, because He knows all of our story. Not only does He not rob of us of our agency, but He tries to help us every step of the way. He loves us. He wants us to come back home to Him.

How could He help us without knowing our story all the way to the end? Who better to place our trust in, than an all powerful, all knowing being who not only loves us, but who is the Father of our Spirits?

1. We were not sent to earth to fail.

2. God does not give us more than we can bear or accomplish.

3. God does not ask us to do anything that He will not help us to accomplish.