Tithing-Itemize Daycare?

[missionary0204]

I work for a state univeristy and my wife is an attorney. Our daughter goes to a wonderful daycare that requires a weekly expense. When it comes to tithing, I deduct social security and 401k. I plan on paying tithing on my social security checks and 401k checks after I retire. I find it easier to keep the math caculated that way. If I ever need to pull money out of my 401k early, I will pay tithing on it in the same year.

Now the issue I'm having. I told my wife that I was going to deduct the daycare expense before calculating our tithing because it is an expense we have to incur for both of us to work. She became very defensive and told me "No!" She says that I shouldn't nickel and dime our Father in Heaven. I explained to her that if God demanded 50% then I would give it, but he asks for 10% and I consider daycare to be no different than a company the deducts costs of goods sold from their total revenue before calculating increase (ignore all of the overhead accounting and other expenses and keep this simple).

My wife told me to schedule a meeting with the Bishop to ask about this and if the Bishop approves, we would do it my way. In my mind, my method of reasoning is completly logical. I am not trying to deduct medical and a host of other expenses, but daycare is cost of going to work.

I would love an outside perspective on this. For those that cringe at the idea of both parents working, my wife plans to work 2 days a week within two years to be a stay-at-home mom with our second child even though she makes a "lot" more than I do. Thanks!

[Vort]

I agree with your wife.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Ultimately, I think it is between you and the Lord, but since you asked:

I agree with your wife. :)

[Dravin]

My wife told me to schedule a meeting with the Bishop to ask about this and if the Bishop approves, we would do it my way. In my mind, my method of reasoning is completly logical. I am not trying to deduct medical and a host of other expenses, but daycare is cost of going to work.

By the same logic so is gas or bus fare. Do you plan to treat those the same? If not, why not?

[missionary0204]

If I was a Sole Prop, LLC, etc, then I would itemize those expenses and not pay tithing on it. The daycare expense is only incurred becuase we both work. My wife would have insurance, gas, and other expenses whether she works or not.

[Windseeker]

I was a single dad with 4 kids and 1 of them had to go to daycare. I had no choice but I never considered deducting the amount from my increase. I agree with your wife, but I wouldn't feel the need to discuss it with the Bishop.

Currently I work and my wife is completing her medical residency and moving on to a fellowship, because we can't get home in time we have to send our son to after-care which costs over $200 a month, we are not deducting that either even though our budget is extremly tight.

I have a strong testimony that paying a full tithe is insurance against divorce. I would err on the side of rounding up, giving more every chance I get.

[Wingnut]

I agree with your wife, not that you should definitely pay it, but that you shouldn't nickel-and-dime the Lord. But if it's such a bone of contention, let her pay on her salary, and you not pay on yours.

[estradling75]

Officially the answer is 10 percent of your Increase...

With increase being between you (and your wife) and the Lord.

Personally I agree with your wife.

[missionary0204]

There is a part of me that does want to itemize vehicle usage and such, but I choose not to because I use the vehicles and others things for other purposes. As my wife accused me, I am trying not to "nickel and dime" to much.

[Vort]

Please note that "deductions" apply to tax. Tithing is not a tax, not in any possible way of thinking. Tithing is paid on your annual increase. In my view (and, apparently, in your wife's view), caring for the children is an important part of your increase, just like eating food and paying mortgage.

Do what you want; it's no skin off my nose either way. But if you're thinking of using "tax deduction" methodology on your tithing, you're way, way off course.

[missionary0204]

Thank you for the lightening fast posts!

I honestly don't mind paying an extra $500 a year. I don't understand logically how this is truely considered "nickel and diming" Heavenly Father. I am very rational and my wife is more emotional. Like I said, if the Lord said 50%, I would pay it. If I give the Lord 10%, would paying 11% give me a greater blessing? There are fast offerings and other avenues to recieve other types of blessings. We strive to be generous and are known to be good missionaries, but I am confused by the logic that a daycare expense is not deducted from the increase. Please try to avoid commenting about gas and the car when responding.

[missionary0204]

Please note that "deductions" apply to tax. Tithing is not a tax, not in any possible way of thinking. Tithing is paid on your annual increase. In my view (and, apparently, in your wife's view), caring for the children is an important part of your increase, just like eating food and paying mortgage.

Very interesting. So your saying daycare is a resource to educate my daughter which in turn gives me increase? Of course it does more than just educate but this is the type of response I am looking for. I want insight to help me understand why my logic might warrant a second guess. Thanks Vort!

[Wingnut]

I am confused by the logic that a daycare expense is not deducted from the increase. Please try to avoid commenting about gas and the car when responding.

I give you $100. You can choose to spend it on daycare, gas, the car, groceries, date night, books, movies, or investment. I don't care. No matter what you spend it on, it's still an increase of $100 to you.

[skippy740]

Forget the differences in the money.

It's not about the money anymore. Consequently, it never was.

It's now about how well you are listening to your wife.

I agree with your wife... but not on the principle that she was right.

But on the principle that she is showing an increase of faith and encouraging you to do the same.

Don't turn a conversation about tithing into a marriage issue.

BTW, she'll love it when you come back to her and tell her "You're right, honey." :)

[Vort]

Very interesting. So your saying daycare is a resource to educate my daughter which in turn gives me increase? Of course it does more than just educate but this is the type of response I am looking for. I want insight to help me understand why my logic might warrant a second guess. Thanks Vort!

In part, but my definitions are more expansive than this. If we lived in an agrarian economy, perhaps "increase" would be more obvious. (I'm not convinced this is so, but it may be.) Things are not always so clear in our economy. For example, I always tithe the money I pay in taxes, because I consider the taxes to provide me with benefits -- that is, with increase. True, taxes are too high and very poorly administered, but that is not the point.

Daycare is a direct benefit to your family. As you said, this is something your wife would do if she didn't work. But she does work, so you need that benefit for your family, someone to stand in your wife's place.

As I said, it's of no moment to me how you choose to view your tithing, but I think your wife has the more obvious and defensible view (probably because I share it). Ultimately, tithing is an expression of the law of consecration we have covenanted to live. I don't believe that there are any "extra blessings" bestowed by God because you pay 12% tithing instead of 10%, but for myself, I would much rather overpay tithing by 2% than underpay it by 1%. Everything I own is God's anyway, and I am merely a steward, so if I must err, I would rather err on the side of being overly generous in my contributions to the kingdom of God.

In my view, the only thing I don't tithe is money that I never receive in any form. This does not include taxes, since obviously I derive the benefit of taxes every day. It does not include 401K money, since I do receive that and choose to reinvest it. (Unearned income, however, is always tithed.)

However, it does include FICA withholdings, which is money I am "paid" only in a theoretical sense. It is taken from my paycheck long before I ever see it, and it is not used for tax purposes. Its only purpose is to pay to me later in my life. So if I contract a job for $5000, then on completion get $4000 with the promise that they'll pay me the last $1000 in thirty years, then I'm only going to tithe on the $4000. I'll tithe on the extra $1000 when I get it. That's how I view FICA.

[Windseeker]

I think Vort hit the nail on the head.

Perhaps this is an oversimplification but to me it's similar to a farmer claiming his increase was only 400eggs instead of 450 because his family ate 50 eggs with the excuse that they have to eat because they run a farm and if they don't eat they won't have the energy to run the farm.

[estradling75]

The logic you gave for not paying on Child care was...

I/we need child care in order to work... But that line of reasoning can hold true for just about everything.

You need <food> in order to work

You need <clothes> in order to work

You need <transportation> in order to work

You need <a place to sleep at night aka a home> in order to work

You and your wife can draw the line on what is an increase or not where ever you like... but many of us see it as the beginning of a slippery slope and thus try to avoid going there.

[MorningStar]

I think your wife is saying not to come up with creative ways to lower your tithing. I have never heard of anyone deducting childcare expenses. My medical premium comes out of my husband's check so we never see that money, but we still tithe on it. We also have union dues ($500 per year), mandatory retirement (3% of our income that we won't see until later), and the various taxes. It does feel like we are paying a lot of tithing for the amount that goes into our bank account, but I know we are blessed for it. I would rather overpay than short change the Lord.

[mnn727]

Officially the answer is 10 percent of your Increase...

With increase being between you (and your wife) and the Lord.

I understand where you are coming from and the former tax-preparer in me would love to tell you yes, even though tithing is not a tax but then I could also say: I have to have two vehicles since both my wife and I work instead of just one, so why can't I deduct the car payment, the insurance, and the gas, etc.?

My wife also needs work clothes, can't I deduct those?

I do know people who really work that definition of 'increase'.

Please pray about it.

Here's another idea: Ask your wife to stay home and take care of the kids - problem solved and you'd have less income to pay tithing on. I know -- it's hard to do, it all depends on what in your life is a priority.

I certainly wish you well. Remember; Worship without sacrifice is just words.

Edited February 4, 2013 by mnn727

[JayJ]

I agree with your wife. Furthermore, it might be a bit presumptuous to assume any of us will make it to the point of social security collecting!

I believe the Lord expects us to pay our tithing on our gross income and not shortchange him with a net income tithe. The net income tithe game could be played until nothing is left.

Make that appointment with your bishop and have an honest discussion.

[mnn727]

Please try to avoid commenting about gas and the car when responding.

Why when its really the same thing.

[pam]

If I was a Sole Prop, LLC, etc, then I would itemize those expenses and not pay tithing on it. The daycare expense is only incurred becuase we both work. My wife would have insurance, gas, and other expenses whether she works or not.

I used to pay for childcare because both of us worked. That is still an expense after your increase. So I'm in agreement with your wife.

[Guest]

No one post unless you agree with him. Duh.

[Maureen]

No one post unless you agree with him. Duh.

And why are you deliberately rude Eowyn? If you can't offer any good advice why comment at all?

M.

[pam]

And why are you deliberately rude Eowyn? If you can't offer any good advice why comment at all?

M.

Perhaps because when someone comments and states what we can and can't comment on...they only want to hear what they want to hear.