Can I have my church records subpoenaed?

[Dent]

I'm currently going through some nastiness with my ex spouse. To the point where I'm literally getting dragged through the mud within my own business, community, and ward.

This person has gone a long way, out of their way, to write two seperate letters to my bishop making up false stuff about me. I'm curious if I can get my church records subpoenaed for a defamation lawsuit? My lawyer said we couldn't but wasn't sure, so I'm asking here.

I'm not a lawyer, but I wish I was in times like this? Thanks!

[john doe]

Even if you get the church records, what are you hoping to find? Proof that you haven't had official church discipline? I highly doubt letters to a bishop would be entered in some file kept by the church.

[beefche]

Your lawyer says you can't have them subpoened, but you are asking a bunch of strangers if this is true? If you don't trust your attorney, then I suggest you find one you do trust.

[Dent]

Like I said, he can't BUT WASN'T SURE.

So yes I'm asking a bunch of strangers in hopes one of these strangers is a student of law.

[Dent]

John Doe-

These letters continue to follow me where ever I go. I've moved and changed wards. My new bishop asks me questions about these letters. So they are in my personal records.

The strange thing is... I can't even read them as my bishop has them in is hands with my ex-spouses handwriting.

My lawyer cautioned me on what I can do, but he's expensive and I'm seeing if I can find out myself and not pay him hundreds of dollars to do so.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Dent

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Dent,

I've been an executive seceretary, a membership clerk, and I have over a decade of collecting eclectic anecdotes - I've never heard anything about people using membership records in lawsuits.

The closest I've encountered: If you had your record annotated to contain information about a severe felony conviction, that annotation can only be removed by a member of the First Presidency. Sorry - that doesn't sound like your issue.

If you find out one way or the other, could you come back and tell us?

[Dent]

Loudmouth-

So far... All I can find is IF that accusation is actually a child molestation, etc... Like you mentioned. Something serious.

In my case it is not. Just defamation.

I know this is a strange question, as it baffled my attorney.

[Anddenex]

I'm currently going through some nastiness with my ex spouse. To the point where I'm literally getting dragged through the mud within my own business, community, and ward.

This person has gone a long way, out of their way, to write two seperate letters to my bishop making up false stuff about me. I'm curious if I can get my church records subpoenaed for a defamation lawsuit? My lawyer said we couldn't but wasn't sure, so I'm asking here.

I'm not a lawyer, but I wish I was in times like this? Thanks!

The letters would not be on your church records at all. The only information on Church records would be your membership record, IOS ( I believe is what it is called ), and you can receive this without any lawsuit.

The IOS however, doesn't provide any information regarding disciplinary councils. If you have gone through a disciplinary council then this would be on the full membership record.

If you move wards, and the letters follow, then either your ex is writing a new letter to your new bishop, or your current bishop has flagged your membership record for the new bishop to give him a call. Then he would send the letters to him.

I am honestly shocked that the bishop isn't allowing you to see the letter. The letter is an accusation which, from my understanding, you would need to see also. He can easily make a copy of the letter and give it to you thus allowing him to keep the original.

I wish you the best in your pursuit to clear your name...I am taking you at your word regarding defamation.

[Dent]

The letters would not be on your church records at all. The only information on Church records would be your membership record, IOS ( I believe is what it is called ), and you can receive this without any lawsuit.

I assume there is the original record stating our basic information. What you called the IOS. My first meeting with my bishop, he pulls out a few papers along with the letter with my ex's handwriting and my bishop was going through the letter, but not reading it.

If you move wards, and the letters follow, then either your ex is writing a new letter to your new bishop, or your current bishop has flagged your membership record for the new bishop to give him a call. Then he would send the letters to him.

I made a new appointment with my new bishop. I go in and sure enough... There's that stupid disparaging letter. It was transfered with my IOS.

I am honestly shocked that the bishop isn't allowing you to see the letter. The letter is an accusation which, from my understanding, you would need to see also. He can easily make a copy of the letter and give it to you thus allowing him to keep the original.

This is what makes me furious. He won't copy it, as I have asked. He won't let me touch it, as I have asked.

I have mentioned... How can I defend myself when I can't even see the letter. He said, I can't let you have it but I'll read it to you. That never came to pass. He will just go through a few accusations that are on it.

Today I go in, and my new bishop whips out another freakin letter he said that my ex wrote to him, just this week. My ex wrote it and gave it to the bishop. My ex's bishop then gave it to my bishop. I asked for it today and he said no.

I mentioned this is unjust, and he said he won't hand me anything that will hurt another person. I'm like... WTF???

[selek]

Make an appointment with the Stake President.

Lay out your case to him there.

Be prepared to take it to the Area Seventy and to the General Authorities if needs be.

[Dent]

Make an appointment with the Stake President.

Lay out your case to him there.

Be prepared to take it to the Area Seventy and to the General Authorities if needs be.

I am about ready to do so. Since I recently moved here, I'm in the process of finding out how to get in touch with my Stake President. I'm more than ready for the Area Seventy and General Authority.

[Guest Suiciaviommal]

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[Gwen]

Is your ex also a member? If so, and these accusations have been repeatedly investigated and found false, then she should be under consideration for disciplinary action.

I would be very careful trying to bring your entire church records into it. There is a reason the courts make that door hard to open and once it's open you can't close it.

Once an accusation has been investigated and found false it should be tossed. It should not be following you unless the bishop was not satisfied that it was false and it's still under investigation. Assuming it's even an issue the church cares about (abuse, not paying child support, etc.). If it's just "I think he's a mean jerk" then it's irrelevant and the church should disregard it as a whole.

I would continue to press the issue until you saw the letters. I don't know the legalities of getting copies but if they are following you in your records then they are yours and you should be able to obtain them on your own. Anything you own you can submit (just be prepared for her lawyer to try and exclude it as confidential if she is also active in church).

[Just_A_Guy]

Dent, I dabble in law in Utah (and am not licensed in any other state, and you should not take this as legal advice; just hypothetical pontificating by someone who happens to have a little experience in the legal field). Basically - I can subpoena whatever the heck I want; but whoever has the stuff I subpoenaed can also object through a process called a "Motion to quash". One reason for a motion to quash is that the subpoenaed documents may be subject to priest-penitent privilege, and the contours of that are different depending on what state I may be in.

But I would note that just because you (maybe) can do something legally, doesn't mean you should. If you aren't getting subjected to Church discipline as a result of these letters, my inclination as a human being would be to turn the other cheek. My experience is that crazy exes, given enough rope, will tend to hang themselves. It becomes a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Wingnut]

Basically - I can subpoena whatever the heck I want; but whoever has the stuff I subpoenaed can also object through a process called a "Motion to quash". One reason for a motion to quash is that the subpoenaed documents may be subject to priest-penitent privilege, and the contours of that are different depending on what state I may be in.

Would that apply when the priest in question is Dent's priest and not the psycho ex's priest?

My experience is that crazy exes, given enough rope, will tend to hang themselves. It becomes a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.

Lol.

[Just_A_Guy]

Would that apply when the priest in question is Dent's priest and not the psycho ex's priest?

I've kind of been scratching my head over that one, too. I suppose it just goes back to however the particular state has written their rules of evidence.

[ditd]

Hi Dent

I am sorry to hear about your situation. Here in the UK we have a piece of legislation called the data protection act. One of the principles of this act basically states that unless it is policerecord you can make a formal request in writing to any organization who holds information about you, church, health service, etc. and they must respond within a given time and comply.

I don't know if the US has similar data legislation but it would be worth looking into...

[Vort]

Hi Dent

I am sorry to hear about your situation. Here in the UK we have a piece of legislation called the data protection act. One of the principles of this act basically states that unless it is policerecord you can make a formal request in writing to any organization who holds information about you, church, health service, etc. and they must respond within a given time and comply.

I don't know if the US has similar data legislation but it would be worth looking into...

Is this true? This seems 100% backward. A private organization must open its private records on request, but a public government organization can keep records on individuals that it can keep secret?

Does this strike anyone else as a slave-state practice? Or am I being hopelessly naive?

[ditd]

For us the health sector is public along with the education sector. You can also gain your tax, national insurance and employment information.

You can obtain some information from the police; regarding any crimes that you may have been convicted of however they are not obliged to show you some information if you are part of an ongoing investigation or have been involved with somebody who is part of an ongoing investigation. It's pretty black and white and above board but my knowledge is not best clued as fortunately I have never been involved other than when somebody stole my bicycle :'(

[Dent]

Some are asking if I should even pursue legal action.

Since I've moved. This is my third bishop in 2+ years(1st bishop when I was married to the beast, 2nd because I'll explain, and now where I'm at). I've only been in this ward for 3 months at most. My previous two bishops have threatened to excommunicate me because of the lies my ex has been saying about me. Even my previous stake president threatened to ex me.

I'm also self employed and she went out of her way to lie about me to my business partners. Now they won't even talk to me or deal with me. Which has hindered my business.

Now that I've been divorced for so long, she wrote a 2nd letter my current bishop making up false accusations. My last bishop, current bishop, and stake president won't even let me touch the letters. They won't let me look at them, copy them, or whatever BUT I can see it's her handwriting from across the room.

She even went to my community and spread her filth. That's why I had to move to my current ward.

You guys have no idea how bad it is. Just because you're a divorced mom... Doesn't mean you're "special". She has taken this to a whole new level. I am learning you can use certain gifts from God for good and/or bad. She has the "gift of tongue" and she knows when to cry, laugh, speak garbage, etc...

Edited February 19, 2013 by Dent

[Dent]

Dent, I dabble in law in Utah (and am not licensed in any other state, and you should not take this as legal advice; just hypothetical pontificating by someone who happens to have a little experience in the legal field)

I am in Utah and my ex is as well.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Dent

[john doe]

Some are asking if I should even pursue legal action.

Since I've moved. This is my third bishop in 2+ years(1st bishop when I was married to the beast, 2nd because I'll explain, and now where I'm at). I've only been in this ward for 3 months at most. My previous two bishops have threatened to excommunicate me because of the lies my ex has been saying about me. Even my previous stake president threatened to ex me.

Let me get this straight. You were threatened with excommunication based upon letters that you don't know the contents of? Or, were you told that if the allegations are true they would be excommunicable offenses?

I am admittedly no expert on these kinds of matters, but it seems to me that most Stake Presidents don't just engage in excommunication without convening the Stake High Council and allowing you, the accused, the full opportunity to admit, explain, or refute the allegations.

[Sharky]

I've kind of been scratching my head over that one, too. I suppose it just goes back to however the particular state has written their rules of evidence.

No legal advise here either ..... EVERY state would have some differing rules of law, so clerly, paying your high-priced attorney is truely the only way to learn the legalities ....

In my state, the records themselves would be protected.

However, the letters themselves & anything the ex-spouse shared with a clery that is not her own clergy (except in the course of certain "internal discipline cases", or in the event her clergy was not readily available), generally does not have any expectation of privacy attached.

That word generally is the actual wording in the law & is the key .... some case-law attaches an expectation of privacy & some case-law does not.

The aurguement in my state could be successfully made & ruled either way.

That Said:

I too would caution you about opening that door to enter your church records into a court case.

I'm not sure they would have the impact you are hoping for, & in my state, once entered into a court proceeding those records (as evidence used in the case & regardless of the bareing they had on the case) would become public record after the case is settled.

Your church records, even the full membership file at COB, are "yours" & therefore you do have a right to request to view & even obtain a copy of them.

Note the word, "request" .... much like your doctor will do if you request a full copy of your medical records, the chucrh will consider your reasons for the request in whether or not they permit you to see or have them.

If the Church actually takes discipilary action (not threatens to but takes) against you they will provide you will copies of all pertinet documents, including those letters.

The letters themselves I don't see why, unless there was some formal disciplinary action investigated, would be a part of your membership records. If there was in fact some formal disciplinary action taken or investigated, any petinate info should have been sent on to SL once the matter was closed.

Either way, getting a copy of the letters or getting a copy of your full membership records, is nothing short of a process that can seem long & frustrating at times.

The wheels or progress move VERY slowly within the Church.

You are likely to run up against more resistance from church leaders if your purpose for obtaining the letters or the records is for the purpose of you accussing someone else of wrong-doing.

That is simply a fact-of-life. Within the church we taught forgiveness & to turn the other cheek. If your purpose is contrary to those teachings, you will meet some resistance.

It sounds to me as if your purpose in wanting these letters & records is more out of anger & frustration, for suing your ex I believe you said, rather then for gaining a greater insight & greater understanding of your own self.

My advise is that you simply need to move on. Work on forgiving your ex. Get past your frustration & anger.

If the letters follow you, oh well, don't hide anything, be open, honest, don't try to hide it. As time passes, if you let the matter drop, the letters & those records will become less & less pertinent & quickly be forgotten.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Sharky

[RadioactiveWolfboy]

My ex lied to my Bishop and I was lucky that he didn't believe her. She was Ex'ed I was not. The weird thing is she and I are friends now. It sounds horrible what you are going through, and sounds like Church officials are not using the power of discernment. I hope things work out for you. I was lucky and my ex stopped saying stuff about me that wasn't true.

Rich

[Vort]

Your church records, even the full membership file at COB, are "yours" & therefore you do have a right to request to view & even obtain a copy of them.

Note the word, "request" .... much like your doctor will do if you request a full copy of your medical records, the chucrh will consider your reasons for the request in whether or not they permit you to see or have them.

As a certified non-lawyer (translation: I freely admit I don't know what I'm talking about), this seems to me to fail on two seemingly opposite counts:

1. I doubt Church membership records, either locally or at the COB, are legally yours or that you have any "right" to see them. You may, of course, request them, but the Church can simply say "nope" -- which they could not do if you had a right to them.

2. You may also "request" to see your medical chart from a doctor, but in that case, your "request" is a politely phrased demand. The doctor must, by law, show you everything s/he has written or any other information s/he has on you. Legally, that information does belong to you. (The records themselves technically belong to the doctor, but the information in those records belongs to you.)

This is my understanding. I do not believe we have any legal (or moral) right to the information in Church records, at least not in the US. I am open to correction from those who might actually know.