Your perception of ex Mormonism

[selek]

Indeed- all that is needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

If someone sees a lie go unchallenged often enough, they begin to wonder if it might not be true after all.

For me, the bottom line is this: I may not dissuade the rabid anti-Mormon with Kool-aid stains around his lips and the Joseph Lied sign.

But there are others watching and wondering about when and if the Mormons will stand up for the truth.

If WE will not stand up for eternal truths, are we really disciples of Christ?

Or are we just paying lip service?

[Tough Grits]

TG - If someone says something to my face in an attempt to pick a fight or instigate something, then I should walk away, or ignore it. That falls into a "turn the other cheek" situation. However if I am in a more public situation (internet forum, meeting, group of people, etc.) where the person's negative testimony could influence others, then I believe there is a duty to speak out for people who know the truth.

I agree. I don't think (in my opinion) that anybody has disagreed with the statement that you just made.

This disagreement--or maybe the misunderstanding--seems to be stemming from the manner in which one's "duty to speak out" is manifested. At least in my opinion.

I know what I stand for. I know what my beliefs are. I will never stand-down from those beliefs or that knowledge, nor will I be ashamed.

Every post I write (hopefully) bears some testimony of what I know, what I believe, and who I am.

If that has not been made clear, or if my testimony is not evident, then maybe the fault is mine, maybe the fault lies with the person reading my posts, or both. In my opinion (biased as it may be), I don't feel that I have failed in my duty to bear testimony of what I know to be true. Nor do I think, to my knowledge, that I have accused anybody else of failing in their duty of proclaiming truth and "speaking out".

Thank goodness we are all different. Thank goodness each of us is a unique thread in the tapestry of the gospel.

We will never all be exactly the same. I think that is great. The trick is learning to recognize the differences, even appreciate them, without categorizing a person as a whole, or labeling their testimony or spirituality as a whole, based simply on a difference in thought process, difference in communicating, or difference in opinion.

Hopefully, I communicated my thoughts clearly, succinctly, and without misunderstanding some key point. If so, my apologies.

By the way, I am home from work today because school was cancelled due to the enormous amounts of rain we have sustained in southern GA. I have just come in from catching crawdads in the ditch with my children. We took pictures and measured them! They even got in fights in the box that I had them in. I wish I could share those pics with y'all.

Much Peace... ~TG

[Tough Grits]

Indeed- all that is needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

If someone sees a lie go unchallenged often enough, they begin to wonder if it might not be true after all.

For me, the bottom line is this: I may not dissuade the rabid anti-Mormon with Kool-aid stains around his lips and the Joseph Lied sign.

But there are others watching and wondering about when and if the Mormons will stand up for the truth.

If WE will not stand up for eternal truths, are we really disciples of Christ?

Or are we just paying lip service?

Hello, Selek!

I agree.

Heavenly Father will not be mocked. We are the ones fighting darkness in this, the last, dispensation. We were saved for last. We are a mighty army. Even though we are privileged enough to know how this story will end (eventually Jesus will reign upon the earth, eventually Satan will be defeated for the final time, and eventually we will all stand before God on judgement day), we still have a great a sacred work to do.

May we all have the opportunity to serve the Lord in our own unique way. May we each blend our voices to the great gospel chorus in such a way that not only are we heard, but we are understood. May our voices have the power of the Holy Ghost, for without which our voices would be nothing but noise.

I want to be a disciple...and with discipleship comes discipline. Discipline of our thoughts, our words, and our actions. Everything we do, in learning to become, is based on discipline.

We should not suppose that just because this is an internet forum that our duties and responsibilities to the Gospel are less than in our "real" lives. This is real too. How we act here, is just as real as how we act in our homes and in every relationship that we have.

How we act here will fall under judgement just as how we act in our real lives falls under judgement.

I do not suppose to proclaim judgement or condemnation on any for how they choose to manifest their testimony, their knowledge, and/or their beliefs.

However, just as you would remind us to stand up and defend the gospel (thank you for that reminder, by the way) I would remind the forum to do so in a way that Christ can be seen in the very words we write and the very attitude in which we write them.

Selek, I think we are more in harmony than one might be inclined to suppose. At least in my opinion...what say you?

Much Love... ~TG

[Backroads]

Yet, is retaliation or even unnecessary negative feelings the same thing as standing up for our beliefs? At one point do we become caught up in "correcting all those nasty ex-Mormons" and forget about our own spirituality?

[Bini]

Yet, is retaliation or even unnecessary negative feelings the same thing as standing up for our beliefs? At one point do we become caught up in "correcting all those nasty ex-Mormons" and forget about our own spirituality?

I think it becomes problematic when you can't gracefully sit down after you've stated your belief. If someone tells falsehoods about Mormonism, I'll do my utmost in being tactful and direct in correction but I'm not interested in losing myself in a dead end discussion if they choose to ignore facts. There are some people that can't debate without using a superiority complex and don't know when it's time to close the curtain. Just because you have the last say doesn't mean you "win". Personally, I choose not to get overly involved in religious or political discussions because they're topics that are passion fueled. I am perfectly comfortable making precise and concise statements of what I believe, and if someone has a problem with that - that's their problem - I'm not interested in arguing and I'd rather keep my being (spiritually and mentally) intact and not feel like I'm in a pressure cooker.

[Backroads]

Correcting and letting your duty be done seems the best option to me. If we are going with the definition of ex-Mormon as the bitter and angry type, I doubt much will get through to them, so why bother and get ourselves upset?

[selek]

Correcting and letting your duty be done seems the best option to me. If we are going with the definition of ex-Mormon as the bitter and angry type, I doubt much will get through to them, so why bother and get ourselves upset?

Asked and answered.

Because there are others watching.

If we do not confront, correct, and defuse their falsehoods, then others will wonder 1) why we do not and 2) if we cannot.

[Backroads]

Asked and answered.

Because there are others watching.

If we do not confront, correct, and defuse their falsehoods, then others will wonder 1) why we do not and 2) if we cannot.

Only if we do this in the correct spirit. My question was when we were debating without any spiritual guidance--just arguing.

I personally find a childish religious debate that has become nothing more than attacks to inspire pity rather than any question on who is right.

[prisonchaplain]

I remember spending about 4 months doing a Bible study with three Jehovah's Witnesses back when I was in junior high school. They agreed that we would use the New International Version of the Bible. I know we discussed a lot of our disagreements, and we went to Bible verses to explain our positions. I do not recall the conversations too well, but believe that they went well, in terms of being respectful and allowing everyone their give and take. Nobody changed their minds in that four months, but I will always believe that sincere Bible studies, even when based on "who's right," will bear good fruit. The key is sincerity.

[Guest DeborahC]

I've been an "ex" Mormon on and off during my lifetime.

Sometimes I've been angry and bitter - due to the treatment of my gay son - and other times I've been sad, lonely, and confused.

There are many reasons people choose to go inactive.

I think it's a mistake to try to label them.

Instead, we should treat them with love, kindness, and patience.

Heck, I'm feeling depressed today and like I want to leave the Church.

A month ago I felt I had a testimony.

Today it's waning.

It comes and goes...

I'm not bitter - just sometimes feel spiritually starved.

[JimmiGerman]

I'm interested in having a candid but tactful discussion ...

So because there are varying perceptions of what entails ex Mormonism and what an ex Mormon is, what is your definition? Do you use the term "ex Mormon" as a label for any and all persons that have resigned from Mormonism? Or just those that openly degrade Mormonism?

What are your thinkings?

I would say, firstly, there is a mighty difference between an "Ex-Mormon" and an "Anti-Mormon". Secondly, the scale of characterizing an "Ex-Mormon" might be widely scattered. An Ex-Mormon would retire from the ceremonies and the community, he would become inactive (but then one would only call him a "cold Mormon"), and perhaps he would even deny some essential aspects of the Mormon doctrine, and he would even question his faith. But an Anti-Mormon would agitate and propagate against the Mormons (i.e. in internet forums) and their faith and doctrine by denying their Christian authenticity.

However, and this is my personal assumption, as I've been experienced in many German religion related forums, the frontiers sometimes are not as clear, but I would tend to say there are more Anti-Mormons than "Ex-Mormons", and the word "Ex-Mormon" for me seems to be more a made-up term than a real description, more a tag or self-given label, used for propaganda purposes against Mormons and for trying to hide the real intentions of those persons or interest groups who deny most important parts of the Christian faith and who are reaching over only for their own lobby-related assets and aims.

Edited February 27, 2013 by JimmiGerman
grammar

[selek]

Only if we do this in the correct spirit. My question was when we were debating without any spiritual guidance--just arguing.

Then you need to be specific about that upfront, instead of smuggling such presumptions into the conversation.

This has moved beyond pointless, so I'm going to lay all my cards on the table and walk away.

This thread was derailed into a gripe-and-moan festival because certain persons (note the plural) had their knickers in a knot because some of us had the "unholy", "un-Christian", and "scripturally-unprecedented" temerity to actually confront a troublemaker head-on.

No- those are not quotes. But they are characterizations and descriptions that were offered and implied about those willing to tackle these individuals head-on.

The wilting violets in our midst were appalled and distraught that others of us were not content to sing "kumbaya" or "lie back and think of England" while lies, defamation, and falsehood were spread about the Church.

We get it.

We got it nine pages ago.

We simply don't care what you think, and we will not be brow-beaten into submission.

Nine pages of thinly veiled accusation, subtle sneering, and holier-than-thou preening have done nothing except harden my resolve.

To assume that I "lack the spirit", or that I am arguing "simply to win" is to both judge me without knowing my heart and is to miss the point.

To assume that because I am blunt, I am somehow "less-Christian", "less-loving", or "less-pious" than you is to simply polish your own whited sepulchre.

To assume that "anger" and "combatativeness" are my only responses is to ignore the evidence of your eyes- and it is being done solely to pigeonhole me.

Here, I'll do it for you:

I am NOT your kind of Mormon.

I am NOT afraid to speak the truth plainly or even bluntly.

I will speak, as moved by wisdom and the Spirit, in any fashion I feel is appropriate, and I will not come running to tug on your apron for permission.

And if you don't like it, tough.

My salvation is every bit as assured as is yours.

If you don't like it, take it up with Heavenly Father. I'm certain he's got nothing but time to sit and listen to a litany about how you'd run things.

Good and godly men through history- and prophets of this dispensation from Joseph Smith down to J. Golden Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, and Bruce McConkie- have confronted evil and false-speaking of the Church head-on.

They were widely (if not universally) reviled for the "sin" of speaking the truth, no matter how unfashionable or how politically-incorrect.

But then again, maybe they're not your kind of Mormon, either.

Edited February 27, 2013 by selek

[Bini]

I've been an "ex" Mormon on and off during my lifetime.

Sometimes I've been angry and bitter - due to the treatment of my gay son - and other times I've been sad, lonely, and confused.

There are many reasons people choose to go inactive.

I think it's a mistake to try to label them.

Instead, we should treat them with love, kindness, and patience.

Heck, I'm feeling depressed today and like I want to leave the Church.

A month ago I felt I had a testimony.

Today it's waning.

It comes and goes...

I'm not bitter - just sometimes feel spiritually starved.

Deborah, I have days like yours, too. And I know that we're not alone. I'm also sorry to hear about the poor treatment that your son has endured for being gay. I have a 20-something-year old nephew that is gay and it has been a difficult road for him, not because of family (we love him and he knows that we'll always be there for him) but because of the reaction of others. So I can relate on a personal level.

[Bini]

Great responses from everyone. It's interesting how our perceptions are all a bit different, and how we all would respond differently.

[Guest DeborahC]

Thanks Bini. I know the depression will pass. I spent the day at the Temple. It helped... sorta. The video broke halfway through, the lights wouldn't come on, then they came on... I wondered if it all was some sort of a "sign." lol

Anyway, I'll get over it. Thanks for your kind words.

[Backroads]

Wow. selek, I guess I hit a sore spot for you. I'm very sorry I did that, but I also do not appreciate the assumptions you made and the accusations you threw at me. You haven't the slightest idea what "my kind of Mormon" is from a single thread. You have no right to tell me who I can and cannot admire.

I do not doubt that you will argue when moved upon by the Spirit to do so. I will assume you are the type of person that can do such. I can't--I've felt compelled by the Spirit to correct a falsehood quite a few times, but that same Spirit has also prompted me to then just shut my mouth. I've learned that if I do not obey the latter prompting, I find myself in a situation of blind anger where I've lost all sense of the Spirit. I've witnessed similar experiences among others. Yes, I've seen those who can get into a proper debate where the Spirit is present, but I've seen plenty of incidents where it's just cruel, mean arguing.

For these reasons, I tend to shy away when people such as yourself condemn me for NOT making a huge debate. So the Spirit moves upon you to stand up in a more abrupt way than I can do. I have no reason to doubt you and I commend you for doing such.

However, you have no right to tell me or anyone else that we are wrong for simply correct a falsehood and walking away when you have no idea what we are prompted to do. You have spent this entire thread condemning those who do not react the way you do. Maybe many have done the same to you. For that we're all wrong.

Once again, I apologize.

By the way, I find your snide remark about Heavenly Father extremely inappropriate and offensive.

[Carl62]

All of the ex-Mormons I deal with can be summarized in two words: bitter and angry

And would it be just as fair for an Ex-Mormon to summarize Mormons as being hypocritical and judgemental? Didn't think so.

[Bini]

And would it be just as fair for an Ex-Mormon to summarize Mormons as being hypocritical and judgemental? Didn't think so.

To be fair, Livy did use "I" as opposed to "we". So if referring to a personal account, it's possible that Livy has only dealt with bitter and angry ex Mormons. And on the same note, it's possible that an ex Mormon has only felt prejudice from members.

On a whole, I agree 100% that we cannot throw a blanket statement covering everyone. So it's important to clarify what you mean. I could say that all the divorcees that I've met are disgruntled but not all divorcees out there are. Hope that makes sense.

[Vort]

On a whole, I agree 100% that we cannot throw a blanket statement covering everyone.

Yes. Blanket statements are always wrong.

[prisonchaplain]

This discussion reminds me of an English Teachers' convention I went to many years ago. The location was S. Korea, and the audience was made up of Korean professors of English and native-speakers (often with only a 4-year degree, used more as instructors). A Korean professor had just finished giving an academic presentation of his paper. Responses were called for, and one of the Americans briefly offered kudos for some great insights. Applause applause! Afterwards, a British professor (who happened to be an actual professor) got up and ripped the presentation to shreds, speaking of shoddy research, questionable applications, etc. The Korean professor reddened signficantly, and we Americans were aghast. We thought this fellow quite rude, and, of course, arrogant.

Afterwards, a moderator got up and explained apologeticly that the convention's formatting was not clear enough, and that many of us may be unfamiliar with the European practice of sharply criticizing academic paper presentations, after which the presenter is expected to offer an equally biting rebuttal. Since the vast majority of foreign teachers in Korea were American, they simply had never taken into account this practice--which was perfectly appropriate for the setting, from the European set of expectations.

All that to say that some people enjoy a good debate, and find great satisfaction in defending their faith, their politics, and whatever other passions they may have. Done well, debate can be entertaining, informative, passionate, and a great battle of wits. Others, unfamiliar or uncomfortable with it are quickly off-put by the seeming contention, the lack of compassion, the harshness, etc.

I debated in high school, so can appreciate the exchanges. However, I've found that this site is not the best for such exchanges. It can go well for a short time, but then usually degenerates into folks misunderstanding each other and getting upset.

[Tough Grits]

And if you don't like it, tough.

Selek,

In the future I would prefer it if you used my entire name, and please use upper-case letters when doing so.

:roflmbo:

(Just messing with you! )

[selek]

Selek,

In the future I would prefer it if you used my entire name, and please use upper-case letters when doing so.

:roflmbo:

(Just messing with you! )

I thought your first name was "Kissmy" (and "Tough" was your seldom used middle name)...

....I'm soooooooo confused....

[Tough Grits]

I thought your first name was "Kissmy" (and "Tough" was your seldom used middle name)...

....I'm soooooooo confused....

You, Selek, are priceless!!!

[Suzie]

I think terms such as "Ex-Mormon" are giving a negative connotation because it describe others for what they are not rather for what they are and let me tell you nobody likes to be described this way.

[Tough Grits]

I think terms such as "Ex-Mormon" are giving a negative connotation because it describe others for what they are not rather for what they are and let me tell you nobody likes to be described this way.

What they are not: a practicing Mormon.

What they still are: a child of God.