Why don't people see more of Satan and his followers?

[ZionsRodeVos]

This is just a question that came to me during the priesthood session and in no way means I want to see any of them.

I know we are here to live by faith and one of the aspects of this seems to be that for this reason very few of us have seen our Heavenly Father or Jesus or angels.

But why should Satan care about any of that and simply show himself to every one of us and speak to us directly to tempt us to sin like he did to Jesus. Surely Heavenly Father allows him to exercise his agency as much as is possible without a body and surely Satan cares nothing for the plan of salvation.

The only thing that came to my mind is that if he were to appear to each and every one of us that might be enough proof for everyone to decide to seek out God and/or might give Heavenly Father a reason to send an angel to each of us to counter such a direct and forceful manifestation of evil.

What do you think about this?

[trubludru]

What is that quote.....something along the lines of "Satan's biggest victory is convincing the world that he doesn't exist."

I think he doesn't openly show himself largely because people won't fight against an enemy that doesn't exist. If there is no evil, then is there really good? Therefore you can do whatever you want and there are no real consequences, precisely what Satan wants people to think.

[Traveler]

I believe that Satan is governed by laws and is only allowed to operate according to established rules. Therefore, he is not allowed to make manifestation unless there is a balanced manifestation from our Father in heaven. I believe this works both ways and the account of Satan appearing to Moses in the Book of Moses is a good example of how this all plays out.

I also believe that for this very reason - G-d limits divine manifestations in order to protect us from Satan.

The Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

Ah, so Satan goes around tempting us, or whispering to us, that he doesn't exist and then follows that up with tempting us to do something we shouldn't. I remember hearing that he tries to get is to believe he does not exist and was so focused on the faith aspect that I forgot it.

Interesting to think that Satan has to follow certain rules. I would think that with the power he has he does whatever he pleases. He of course doesn't have more than our Heavenly Father nor than Jesus, but he certainly has a lot and according to Joseph Smiths account he tried to use his power to destroy Joseph seconds before God and Jesus appeared to him.

It has been a while since I read the Pearl of Great Price and I did not remember reading about Moses seeing Satan. I'll have to find that chapter and read it again.

But if there are rules something like what you say, then Satan could force God to appear to many people by appearing to people over and over again and potentially ruin the plan of salvation that way by removing or messing up the faith element God intended to be in the plan of salvation. This came to me after I posted just now and I didn't realize it would tie into the other thread I posted.

Edited April 8, 2013 by ZionsRodeVos
Added another paragraph.

[Anddenex]

I would think that with the power he has he does whatever he pleases.

1 Corinthians 10: 13

If Satan was given full reign to do as he pleases I would wonder, myself, if this scripture then would become obsolete.

If he could tempt and try as he pleases, then wouldn't he seek to tempt and try beyond our ability to overcome.

When he tempted Job, his temptations were subject to the agreement given by the Father, or our Lord.

I think people experience the appearance of Satan and his minions more commonly than you might think.

[BadWolf]

Also.... People don't like to see evil.

Case in point: Blame the victim.

I can't tell you HOW many times with battered spouses friends side with the BATTERER. Its cognitive dissonance. Its easy to believe evil in people you've never met, but when one knows a person, one disbelieves even incontrovertible evidence right in front of them.

"I just can't believe So&So would do such a thing." Or

"What did he/she DO to make you do such a thing?" Or

"Well they said they repented! Everyone is capable of repentence!" (Yeah, word to the wise, battered always are sooooooo sorry. Until the next time. And then they're "sorry" again. And again. And again. Until they've killed the person they're supposed to protect and hold above all others.)

Or as one of my favorite professors used to quote:

"You'll never meet a sociopath you don't like."

Its that liking that creates cognitive dissonance.

<grin> Or kid-movie-time (Over the Hedge, upon discovering junk food):

"Eat up, kids! Anything that tastes this good HAS to be good for you!"

[pam]

I kind of look at it this way as well. Why doesn't God show himself to everyone and then we would all know that HE does exist? It can work both ways.

[ZionsRodeVos]

Thanks for that scripture. As I was writing that I would think Satan does as he pleases I was not thinking of the limitation that we will not be tempted above that which we can handle. It is logical that if Satan could do anything he wanted that scripture would no longer be true.

However, Satan appearing to people just to show himself does not in my mind immediately make it a temptation beyond our capability to resist. Of course I am sure if he went to the trouble to show himself to someone he wouldn't just stand there, introduce himself, and then leave.

You really think many people see Satan? Do they tell the world they have in a similar way the Joseph Smith told the world that he had seen our Heavenly Father and Jesus?

I have very little experience with batterers and their friends.

I didn't ask why more people don't see Heavenly Father and/or Jesus because I've been taught that we are supposed to have faith that they exist and not need to see them to do as they command.

[Anddenex]

You really think many people see Satan? Do they tell the world they have in a similar way the Joseph Smith told the world that he had seen our Heavenly Father and Jesus?

Yes. My experience tells me that those who have this sort of experience are not quick to talk about it, thus we don't hear much about it unless you know them personally and intimately.

I would assume most have not even shared it except to those who were initially there when it happened.

These are not experiences which bring great joy, but truly bring great fear into the heart of the individual experiencing it.

I think also you touched on the reason why he just doesn't show himself because of "faith." If we truly believe in opposites, and Satan appeared to everyone, then the knowledge of his opposite would become a reality also, thus faith would be destroyed and the plan of God frustrated.

[BadWolf]

Yes. My experience tells me that those who have this sort of experience are not quick to talk about it, thus we don't hear much about it unless you know them personally and intimately.

^^^^^^^^^

This.

In either direction.

[ZionsRodeVos]

With the faith aspect of it I doubt Satan cares about that but it is more as trubludru said in that Satan doesn't want to confirm himself to too many people so that he can keep trying to convince many that he doesn't exist.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ah, so Satan goes around tempting us, or whispering to us, that he doesn't exist and then follows that up with tempting us to do something we shouldn't. I remember hearing that he tries to get is to believe he does not exist and was so focused on the faith aspect that I forgot it.

Interesting to think that Satan has to follow certain rules. I would think that with the power he has he does whatever he pleases. He of course doesn't have more than our Heavenly Father nor than Jesus, but he certainly has a lot and according to Joseph Smiths account he tried to use his power to destroy Joseph seconds before God and Jesus appeared to him.

It has been a while since I read the Pearl of Great Price and I did not remember reading about Moses seeing Satan. I'll have to find that chapter and read it again.

But if there are rules something like what you say, then Satan could force God to appear to many people by appearing to people over and over again and potentially ruin the plan of salvation that way by removing or messing up the faith element God intended to be in the plan of salvation. This came to me after I posted just now and I didn't realize it would tie into the other thread I posted.

In part, it might be that Satan has dominion, for a time, over physical Earth whereas the realm of God is spiritual. Satan reveals himself via physical means but because he is spirit alone he cannot reveal himself spiritually at least without our spirit allowing for such a thing. Our being is a dual being, physical and spirit. Which aspect of the dual being we pay attention to is the test we face and the temptation we face. The "whisperings" or loud signals for that matter, come through the natural desires of the body. This is why the natural man is an enemy to God. Where the still small voice comes from spiritual influences and takes a lot of effort to recognize and follow. Satan, in that way, reveals himself constantly, through the natural desires of the corrupted body. Paul does a great job describing the fruits and effects of things that are of the flesh versus things of the spirit.

[Vort]

Because they don't look.

[pam]

Because they don't look.

And I'm certainly not looking for him.

[annewandering]

I have never seen satan but i have felt him and it is something I do not like to talk about. It messed up an entire year of my life trying to get that memory out of my mind enough to sleep.

It wasnt me that opened that door by the way. I was just there.

My testimony bearing is never going to include that I know satan exists because even typing this post makes me want to throw up.

Ok just wanted to say that he does make himself known and now I am going to go read about chicken raising to clear my mind.

[Traveler]

You can call it entropy (or damnation) if you like but in this universe things unravel and come undone. Without the divine influence of G-d nothing good can come about or continue to exist. Thus the default condition of mortality is to become subject to sin and death. Being subject to sin and death is the same thing as being subject to Satan. The only "good" way out of mortality is through Christ.

If someone is not subject to Christ through the covenants and ordinances of his priesthood (or until they are) they are bound by sin and are subject to Satan - who will continue to have influence over them when they die and forever after. We remain in this awful state until the "works" (ordinances) are done.

To summarize if one does not see G-d (keep his commandments) the only things they do see are Satan and his followers.

The Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

A very good point that many people don't look for Satan and that is why they don't see him. I do not look for him and really don't ever want to meet him.

On the other hand I don't think Joseph was expecting to see Heavenly Father and Jesus when he offered that prayer when he was 14 and yet they chose to show themselves to him. Nor did he expect to feel the power of Satan the way he did right before they came to him. Joseph just wanted an answer to his question.

annewandering, you mentioning you have felt Satan reminded me that I too have felt his presence and did not like it.

When I started this thread I was simply curious because I have only heard a few stories of Satan appearing to people and I figured since he wouldn't care about the test life is for us nor faith nor any of that stuff that he might have taken a more direct approach. Thanks to everyone's replies I understand a bit better why he doesn't even when he could.

[Janus3003]

annewandering, you mentioning you have felt Satan reminded me that I too have felt his presence and did not like it.

Not to criticize or anything, but if this is the case, then why make threads focused on him?

[Apple_Acres]

Personally, I feel like Satan values subtlety.

[ZionsRodeVos]

Not to criticize or anything, but if this is the case, then why make threads focused on him?

It is a different approach I am trying to understand how things are. I believe that understanding how Satan operates and what he can and can't do is useful information and I don't remember ever reading or being taught about why he doesn't show himself to people whereas I do remember being taught as to why God and Jesus don't show themselves to everyone.

[Drpepper]

If i was asked too, im sure I could get up and bear as equally strong testimony of Satan as i could the Lord Jesus Christ.

[sarah331]

This whole thread is interesting to me! I've been wondering if a belief in Satan is necessary in Mormonism. It's not something I'm totally convinced of if we're talking about the Faustian devil but the thought of a force more comparable to the spirit in form makes sense to me. Keeping people from questioning their choices, tempting them, etc.

So thank you for this whole thread! I appreciate the insight, and as always, it came at the perfect time :)

[estradling75]

This whole thread is interesting to me! I've been wondering if a belief in Satan is necessary in Mormonism. It's not something I'm totally convinced of if we're talking about the Faustian devil but the thought of a force more comparable to the spirit in form makes sense to me. Keeping people from questioning their choices, tempting them, etc.

So thank you for this whole thread! I appreciate the insight, and as always, it came at the perfect time :)

The answer is both yes and no.. To become a Mormon one needs Faith in Jesus Christ, a testimony that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the LDS church is currently lead by a prophet of God. That's all you need to believe to convert. And for most people if they were to make a limitus test for what you need to believe to call yourself a Mormon those would be it.

However we also believe in growing, learning, and gaining a greater understanding. And Satan as an individual with very real power and malice is to be found in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. Therefore a Mormon believing in a literal Satan is very common, even if we don't understand (nor necessary want to) how he works, as we see in this thread.