Parenting pickle

[Wingnut]

Okay, this is really long, and there's probably way too much extraneous detail, but that's what I specialize in. There's a TL;DR toward the bottom though.

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About two and a half years ago, a family moved into our ward, and across the street from us (a few houses down). They have a son who is about a month younger than my older daughter. We befriended the family, and for the first year, everything was great between all of us. Playing outside in the summertime, babysitting/playdate swaps, helping out in crisis moments, etc.

Their son, "R" has two older siblings, and is quite a pistol. He is socially awkward, but it's age-appropriate awkwardness: lack of manners, frequent yelling, exclusion, etc. It wasn't uncommon for him to snatch a toy from my daughter while they were playing, with no warning, and yell in her face (literally two inches away) for having it in the first place, then not even play with it (just keep it away from her). It also wasn't uncommon for him to be playing a game (any game) outdoors with neighborhood kids from a variety of homes, and include all -- boys and girls -- until my daughter came along, and then simply yell in her face again that she wasn't allowed to play. Basically, he's a toddler bully.

Now, I try very hard not to have what I call "my precious little angel syndrome," but I'm going to for a moment. My daughter is almost five, and is the oldest of my two. She was three-and-a-half before my other daughter was born, so other than church interaction, she didn't have a lot of playmates her first few years (until last Fall, in fact). She is also socially awkward, but not so much in a mean way, just in a way that she doesn't really "get" things sometimes. She's innocent and has a good heart, and just wants to be friends with people. She's not a leader or an instigator. Most of the time in a group situation, she'll either do what everyone else is doing, or just do her own thing, not paying attention to anyone else. She doesn't typically influence groups or people.

Toward the end of summer 2011, my husband and I began to notice that R's bullying was escalating, and our daughter was frequently hurt by him, either physically or emotionally. We also noticed that R's parents did absolutely nothing about it. They might notice, and if they did, they'd say, "R, stop it," and then go back to whatever they were doing before, with no follow-through or even follow-up observation. So my husband took it upon himself to try to teach our three-year-old daughter to stand up for herself, after several months of watching this over and over and over again.

One day, while sitting in the living room at our neighbor's house, R yanked a toy from my daughter's hands and yelled at her. His parents were in and out of the room (I think they were maybe having us over for dinner, so they were prepping things...I'm not sure), and not paying attention. My husband gently took the toy from R, told him "no," and gently bopped him on the head with it, playfully. Over the next few months, he continued to model to our daughter that she didn't have to just sit and take it, but that she could stand up for herself. Perhaps his methods weren't the best, but he was winging it.

One day, a little over a year ago, I got a text from R's mom, out of the blue, asking if my husband and I were both home, that she and her husband had something to talk to us about, and could they come over. Bewildered, we agreed. They came over and basically berated us for about an hour. They called our daughter a bully, said that we were bad and abusive parents, and threatened us with a restraining order. It was a calm but extremely tense conversation. They brushed off their son's behavior with comments such as, "he's a boy, that's what they do. We want your daughter to keep the sweet innocence of her tender heart." It ended with us mutually agreeing that the two kids shouldn't play together at all anymore unless a parent of each of them was present and actively engaged. The next day we received an email from R's dad, suggesting that our daughter might have autism, and we should have her evaluated. This was extremely hurtful to me, piled on top of everything else. For weeks, I couldn't even look at these people, much less carry on a conversation. That was especially problematic being that R's dad was my bishopric counselor while I was serving as ward YW president. I still have a hard time being as friendly with them as I once was, but the initial hurt and animosity have worn off.

Last summer we tried a couple of times to do the "each parent actively present" thing that had been agreed upon. It's hard to avoid this family, as they're the most social family on the street, and they have a big trampoline that all the neighborhood kids play on, and the rest of the neighbors don't know anything about this tiff between us. Each time we tried to associate again, they were technically there but continued the absenteeist parenting, which resulted in more repeated screaming in my daughter's face, and even hitting with toys.

It became a hopeless cause, and it wasn't emotionally healthy for my husband or I, or my daughter to continue the relationships.

TL;DR: Neighborhood kid bullies my daughter, we teach her to stand up for herself, parents call our daughter a bully and threaten us with a restraining order. We make a plan for improvement, but things only continue as they were, with the other kid bullying mine.

Here's the problem I have now: R and my daughter are the same age. Their age group at church is big enough that they're in separate classes at church. They'll both be starting kindergarten in the fall, though, and could end up in the same class. Recently, my daughter has begun asking for playdates again with R. I keep brushing it off with excuses like "R's family is really busy" or something lame like that, but she keeps asking. I don't want her to play with him, and he doesn't like her. In fact, she gave him (and most everyone else she knows) a valentine just two months ago, and he wouldn't even look at her or say a word when she handed it to him. He turned around and walked up the stairs without even taking it from her (his mom took it).

What do I tell my good-hearted sweet daughter who just wants to play with someone who she still thinks is her friend? He's bad for her emotional health, his parents have made it clear that they don't want her playing with him, and my husband and I have decided that it's just better for all involved for our families to have as little to do with each other as possible. So what do I tell her when she keeps on asking?

[Suzie]

Wingnut, after reading your post I must commend you and your husband, you guys are probably the nicest and most patient people I know. I don't think I would have gone through all the things you guys did, heck no! From that first conversation and the words "restraining order" said by them, they would have been automatically out of my house at that very second and out of my life for good but you know, it's crazy Suzie speaking.

What do I tell my good-hearted sweet daughter who just wants to play with someone who she still thinks is her friend? He's bad for her emotional health, his parents have made it clear that they don't want her playing with him, and my husband and I have decided that it's just better for all involved for our families to have as little to do with each other as possible. So what do I tell her when she keeps on asking?

Be honest, tell her that "R" doesn't seem to know how to play yet and he needs sometime to learn how to do so and for the time being, she won't be playing with him.

[Vort]

I am appalled.

To answer your question: I would tell my daughter that she won't be playing with R any more. Furthermore, I would tell her that she is not to talk to R or try to do anything with him. If she asked why (and she would), I would tell her that I think it best that she not have anything to do with R or his family. I would not explain it past that.

I am not saying my way is good, but that is what I would do. Such people are awful, and they can rot in their own awfulness without my children being present.

[Guest]

We've been through this before although not as "extreme" as that! We're going through this now, even. I teach my kids (yes, even as young as 3), to choose their friends wisely. The first few times he showed bully behavior, my kid would have been told that this behavior is unacceptable and not only will I use it to teach my child to stand up for himself, I would also use it to teach my child that one way to stand up for one's self is to avoid the bully. My kids have tons of other family and friends to choose to play with and there are kids that I tell them to avoid and I point out exactly why they need to avoid them. I tell them specifics - I don't want you hanging out with this kid because he has bad language, I don't want you hanging out with that kid because he likes to bop you in the head with a toy, etc. My intent is for my kids to know how to choose friends wisely and what qualities of friends are good and what qualities are bad.

And now, I'm going to regale you with this year's interesting events in the life of my kid:

My 9-year-old has a classmate who chews on everything. EVERYTHING. Like the tables and chairs in the classroom kind of everything. They are in a Montessori school where they don't sit down and face the blackboard while the teacher teaches infront of the class. In Montessori, the classroom is designed so that the desks/chairs form "station dividers". The kids are assigned a desk and a chair as their "personal space" to put their work on and to do individual work that needs a desk, etc. But mostly, the kids do work on "stations" - a mat on the floor, the bench in the outdoor garden, the bean bags next to Montessori materials, etc., and they are free to choose what work to do during the day and with whom to do the work with as long as by the end of the week they have completed all the work assigned. The teacher doesn't stand infront of the class to teach, she is usually in one station or another giving a group of kids lessons. The assistant teacher goes through all the completed work and teaches kids individually who got some things wrong. So, the teachers are not constantly watching kids as they are supposed to be "independent workers".

So, this kid, let's name him C, is a disruptive element in the classroom. Once, he took my kid's "special pencils" that he won on some scholastic challenge thing and chewed them all. Another time, he took my kid's finished work that was on his desk and chewed it. Another time, he chewed my kid's book that he borrowed from the library... and yes, C does these things only to my kids' stuff because my kid gets so upset over it and C likes it when somebody gets upset over his chewing! My kid has this "territorial" personality where he only uses "his pencils" and "his crayons", etc. The classroom has pencils and crayons and books, etc. that kids use all day long so if C chews those, they don't really care because they just grab another one. My kid would go to the teacher and show her the chewed up stuff, the teacher would tell C not to do it, write a note to the parent, and he even got sent to the principal's office for it. The teacher/principal explained to C with his parents that this is not acceptable behavior and the parents responded that they are going to replace all the things C chews up because, "he's just that way". The teacher/principal said, that's not enough because it is also a health hazard (C's bacteria getting passed on to other kids) so C has to stop chewing in the classroom. The parents responded by sending C to the school with "chew toys". Anyway, the behavior did not stop and instead, it escalated. Not only did he continue to chew my kid's stuff he started poking my kid when nobody is looking... just this little push that doesn't hurt but is just enough to annoy my kid and get a rise out of him. Now, my son really loves these teachers and this classroom so he refused my offer to move to a different classroom. So I told the teacher to put a "restraining order" on the kid. I requested that my kid get moved to the desk right next to the assistant teacher's station and in addition, I requested that C get moved to the desk farthest from my kid's desk. I requested that my kid and C are not put in the same group in the lessons, they get seated farthest away in the lunchroom, etc. And I taught my kid to avoid being close to C. As it happens, my kid is one of the "popular" kids in the class (I don't know why both my kids just seem to be friend magnets) and he got elected class Vice President (he's not old enough to be President). So now... at the start of the 4th period of the school year, C and my kid are friends again because C stopped chewing his stuff because he wanted to be in the "in" crowd. Problem solved for my kid but C is still chewing his "chew toys".

Edited April 10, 2013 by anatess

[Wingnut]

<long chewing story that I don't want to quote all of...lol>

It sounds like this kid actually have some kind of disorder. His parents may be right when they say "it's just how he is." Still though, I agree that he's a health hazard with passing his bacteria around to everything.

So you requested all these changes of the school in and in the classroom, and it sounds like they were granted. How did you son himself respond? Did he actively avoid C? Did that help things?

[Gwen]

My opinion take it for what it's worth.

Be honest with your daughter. Tell her that R hasn't learned how to play nice yet and explain why you think that. "You know how R yells in your face?..... that's not ok and no one is allowed to do that to you. We can't control R but we can decide if we give him the opportunity to do that. We won't because we won't play with him until he learns some manners."

I also would not trust the parents for anything. It's a friendship I would cut off. If they happen to be in the same class I would make the teacher aware of the situation. Not in a "blame/bad" way. Just simply "my child and R know each other. They used to play together a lot but it didn't always go well. R would be too aggressive with my daughter and she would not stand up for herself. Let the kids work it out and decide if they want to be friends but please keep an eye out that she is safe."

personal situations....

My oldest has a very hard time telling who are "friends" and who is not. He trusts everyone and always tries to see the best in them. It sets him up for a lot of bullying. He can't seem to tell when something is genuine or not.

In 5th grade he had a friend that would come over and they would ride bikes and play on the trampoline. Then one day my son came home upset that this boy had been bullying him at school with some other boys. Upon further questioning I found out that this boy was always rude at school but then would invite himself over to play and things seemed fine. From that point on he was no longer allowed to play at our house. I had to teach my son that kind of behavior was not being a friend. He was either two faced or he was too afraid of the bullies at school to be a real friend and gave into peer pressure. Either way he didn't deserve my son's friendship.

Another situation (2nd grade) he came home very upset because his teacher told him he was not allowed to share and he didn't understand why a teacher would say that. I went and talked to the teacher knowing there was something to this I was missing. What I found out was that there was a girl in the class that never brought a snack. He would share his, it got to where he was sharing every day. It progressed to the point that at snack time the girl would go into my son's desk and help herself to his snack before he even had a chance to get any. The teacher rightfully was upset about this and told my son that he was not allowed to share with this girl anymore, if she wanted a snack she had to talk to the teacher. I had to teach my son about the line between him sharing (even regularly) and someone stealing from him.

This year (6th grade) he will sometimes come home telling me about things friends said or did and I have to tell him if that's how "friends" treat each other or not. I will have to tell him, "From everything you have said about this kid he's not your friend. I think it's best if you stay away from him. Please don't trust him."

This is the son that has recently been diagnosed with Asperger's. All of these situations where he seemed to just "not get it" were red flags that I missed (can't see something you don't know exists). I described my son as sweet, too trusting, always wanting to see the best in ppl, just wanted to be your friend.

I don't share this to say your daughter has anything, I don't know your daughter. I don't know these ppl and what their background is to ask such a question about your daughter. If they are perhaps qualified to make such an accusation then they went about it totally the wrong way and shame on them (which leaves me skeptical that they know what they are talking about). I am not justifying what they said/did or their defense of their child. In fact if they think that it is all the more reason for them to come down harder on their son and not let him take advantage of/bully her. On the other hand, I find when I finally set emotion aside from how someone shared something, sometimes, there might be validity to it.

At this age it's normal to have to teach social things. As she gets older if she continues to "not get it" or she can't take one lesson and apply it to a different social situation (you have to explain every single situation to her), there might be something to consider.

The boy mentioned with the chewing issues.... there is something there. Some kind of sensory processing issue? Also it's been found that chewing actually stimulates pressure points in the jaw that relieve stress, tension, and headaches..... is he "self medicating" for anxiety issues? It's great that the school helped out and gave you the things you asked for your kid. In a general public education class typically you can't get that (in my experience anyway, every school system is different). You have to have some kind of IEP or something in place before they will take that many measures for one kid.

[beefche]

Wow, I was annoyed but became enraged when "restraint order" was mentioned. I won't presume to tell you how to handle your daughter since I have no experience raising children. But, I wouldn't have anything to do with that family at all. I would be polite at church. But, no social activities with them. If we are at the same ward activity, I would be polite, but nothing more. If I had to work with either of them at church, I would let the one with authority know that I have issues with that person and I will be as transparent as possible so things will not get miscontrued.

[Wingnut]

My opinion take it for what it's worth.

Be honest with your daughter. Tell her that R hasn't learned how to play nice yet and explain why you think that. "You know how R yells in your face?..... that's not ok and no one is allowed to do that to you. We can't control R but we can decide if we give him the opportunity to do that. We won't because we won't play with him until he learns some manners."

I think I can manage a doable conversation with this and some other suggestions in this thread. I think she'll understand, but not like it. I've just struggled with whether or not to tell her that R isn't really very nice, because I don't want her to start treating him any differently when they do have to interact. And heaven forbid she say something to him like "my mommy said I can't play with you because you're not very nice to me" while his parents are around to hear!

I also would not trust the parents for anything. It's a friendship I would cut off. If they happen to be in the same class I would make the teacher aware of the situation. Not in a "blame/bad" way. Just simply "my child and R know each other. They used to play together a lot but it didn't always go well. R would be too aggressive with my daughter and she would not stand up for herself. Let the kids work it out and decide if they want to be friends but please keep an eye out that she is safe."

I think I'm actually going to specifically request that they not be in the same class. There are four kindergarten classes at our school, so that shouldn't be a problem.

This is the son that has recently been diagnosed with Asperger's. All of these situations where he seemed to just "not get it" were red flags that I missed (can't see something you don't know exists). I described my son as sweet, too trusting, always wanting to see the best in ppl, just wanted to be your friend.

I don't share this to say your daughter has anything, I don't know your daughter. I don't know these ppl and what their background is to ask such a question about your daughter. If they are perhaps qualified to make such an accusation then they went about it totally the wrong way and shame on them (which leaves me skeptical that they know what they are talking about). I am not justifying what they said/did or their defense of their child. In fact if they think that it is all the more reason for them to come down harder on their son and not let him take advantage of/bully her. On the other hand, I find when I finally set emotion aside from how someone shared something, sometimes, there might be validity to it.

It doesn't upset me that with your personal experience, you suggest that I could be missing red flags. The parents in my situation have a couple of distant family members (cousin's children, or sister-in-law's cousin, things like that) on the spectrum. These particular family members have so many other social and mental conditions that autism is the least of their worries, though. The thing that really upset and hurt me was that after they accused my daughter of the very behavior their son exhibited, and told us we were bad parents for teaching her to stand up for herself, that they had the gall to turn around and suggest that she might have a mental disorder. I'm not upset by the idea that she could have autism, but I'm upset that it was they who brought it up, and the manner in which they did so.

At this age it's normal to have to teach social things. As she gets older if she continues to "not get it" or she can't take one lesson and apply it to a different social situation (you have to explain every single situation to her), there might be something to consider.

She does seem to be able to cross-apply lessons. She's a little bit of a late bloomer, socially, I think, but there aren't enough indicators for me to be concerned about anything other than that.

Wow, I was annoyed but became enraged when "restraint order" was mentioned.

You're telling me!

I won't presume to tell you how to handle your daughter since I have no experience raising children. But, I wouldn't have anything to do with that family at all. I would be polite at church. But, no social activities with them. If we are at the same ward activity, I would be polite, but nothing more. If I had to work with either of them at church, I would let the one with authority know that I have issues with that person and I will be as transparent as possible so things will not get miscontrued.

Callings and stewardship aren't an issue anymore, since I was released last year. But the hard part is just participating in neighborhood play during the summer. Most of it tends to center in their front yard.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Wingnut
misspelling

[Guest]

I've dealt with parents like this before. To add to the fun, it was DH's brother and his narcissistic control freak of a wife whose bully children can do no wrong. Sorry to be so vague in my feelings about it.

I think eliminating them from your life as much as possible is the best, and maybe only solution. People like this can never see anything but their own victimhood.

[beefche]

Callings and stewardship aren't an issue anymore, since I was released last year. But the hard part is just participating in neighborhood play during the summer. Most of it tends to center in their front yard.

See, I'm contrary enough that I would strive to be the Kool Aid mom of the neighborhood (remember those old ads with all the kids running to the mom who had Kool Aid?). But, that's just me being petty.

[Wingnut]

See, I'm contrary enough that I would strive to be the Kool Aid mom of the neighborhood (remember those old ads with all the kids running to the mom who had Kool Aid?). But, that's just me being petty.

Not sure whether I'd rather laugh at or thank this post, because it's both. But since this is a tough subject, and it made me smile, I went with laugh. But thank you, also. :)

[mnn727]

I can remember many times when my mom was fighting with a neighbor and suddenly I was told to not have anything to do with the kids -- Its doesn't harm a kid to just be told they can no longer play with xx

at 5 no more explanation is necessary, she may cry for a bit or be confused but that will go away after a couple minutes.

[Wingnut]

I can remember many times when my mom was fighting with a neighbor and suddenly I was told to not have anything to do with the kids -- Its doesn't harm a kid to just be told they can no longer play with xx

at 5 no more explanation is necessary, she may cry for a bit or be confused but that will go away after a couple minutes.

I've been brushing her off for months already, but I feel like I need to give her more than what I have been, and I'm just not sure quite how. This thread has helped, though.

[Guest]

It sounds like this kid actually have some kind of disorder. His parents may be right when they say "it's just how he is." Still though, I agree that he's a health hazard with passing his bacteria around to everything.

So you requested all these changes of the school in and in the classroom, and it sounds like they were granted. How did you son himself respond? Did he actively avoid C? Did that help things?

Yes, he has a disorder. I didn't mean for my post to sound like I don't believe them or that they were irresponsible parents. I was just stating a fact... that "he's that way" and his parents are trying their best to deal with it so the school keeps him in the class even if he chews up everything. Make sense?

Yes, the teacher accomodated all the changes I requested. By the way, I didn't make these decisions on my own. It was an agreed upon "things we can do" outcome from a discussion with my kid about how we can deal with it. He's 9 now, so I tend to have him work through his own problems now. He contributed his ideas in the discussion so he followed through with it in the classroom. So yes, he avoided C and ever since the changes, we've had zero problems. He still chews stuff but he has not chewed anything of my kid's.

Recently, he spent 2 weeks in Argentina and when he came back to the classroom he wore this Messi jersey. He wore that jersey everyday for a month. And for those 4 weeks, he did not chew a single thing. I can't make sense of it - why wearing a certain shirt stops his compulsion to chew.

I've just struggled with whether or not to tell her that R isn't really very nice, because I don't want her to start treating him any differently when they do have to interact. And heaven forbid she say something to him like "my mommy said I can't play with you because you're not very nice to me" while his parents are around to hear!

LOL!!! My kid has done this! It doesn't bother me because it's the truth.

There was one time when I told my son he can't spend the night over at his friends' who was having a sleep-over party and my son's friends are going. I told him he can't sleep-over because I don't trust his parents (long story). Anyway, my son called his friend on the phone but he wasn't there and his mom picked up the phone and asked if he would like to leave a message, and my son said, "Can you please tell T that I can't come to his party because my mom does not trust his parents?". Yep! I had to take over the phone and explain myself...

Edited April 10, 2013 by anatess

[applepansy]

Kids are smart. Be honest with her and use the other child's behavior as an example. If you act this way then other people can't play with you. Children understand.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

I agree that when the restraining order comment was made was the point where contact is completely stopped. You don't need a restraining order to not be around anyone, their spouse or their children.

Additionally: I've never believe in the excuse "he's just that way" or "boys will be boys" or even an attitude of either. Children can learn to behave. Unfortunately for "R" it sounds like the world is going to do the discipline instead of his parents. I would want my child and my family as far from that situation as is possible.

Edited April 11, 2013 by applepansy

[zippy_do46]

"What do I tell my good-hearted sweet daughter who just wants to play with someone who she still thinks is her friend? He's bad for her emotional health, his parents have made it clear that they don't want her playing with him, and my husband and I have decided that it's just better for all involved for our families to have as little to do with each other as possible. So what do I tell her when she keeps on asking?"

Wingnut, I do not not know how to say this anyway but this way.

She may be picking up the wrong signal from "you". You know this relationship is not good for your daughter.

"The thing that really upset and hurt me was that after they accused my daughter of the very behavior their son exhibited, and told us we were bad parents for teaching her to stand up for herself, that they had the gall to turn around and suggest that she might have a mental disorder. I'm not upset by the idea that she could have autism, but I'm upset that it was they who brought it up, and the manner in which they did so."

Our "little ones" learn by a number of ways. Some of them are watchers. What has she seen you do over the last two and half years. She may be watching "you". If you can not let it go... why should she.

I laughed at beefche's post. That is exactly what I would do. Why does the play ... your daughter's play center around this child and his home. I would break out the yard games. Play with your child and praise her for those things she can control. Teach her that she has worth. I know this sounds funny because you love your child. Sometimes we teach them that others are worth more of our time then they are. We do not do this on purpose. Sometimes our actions speak louder then our words. Let it go...

School could be a good thing. She can make friends with others. You can arrange play dates for her. Her social circle will be getting larger.

I hope I have not hurt your feelings. There has been enough of that. Remember Wingnut, stand up for yourself. Why did you take two and half years to realize that these people are not very nice. Remember I mention that sometimes our children learn lessons in ways we do not realize. I wonder where he has learned his social lessons. We, as parents teach our children "the bad" and "the good" of life. Sometimes it may just be as simple as how we treat others. I do know you care for your daughter. I wish you well.

[MorningStar]

There was a nice kid I liked to play with when I was little. The problem was, his mom was insane and it was impossible for my mom to deal with her. I definitely wasn't going over there and having the boy over to our place wasn't going to happen either.

My parents bought a living Christmas tree and after they planted it in the yard, it died. So they cut it down and when the neighbor saw them do it, she called the police on them.

With my own kids, there was a boy who misbehaved so badly, they just couldn't handle it anymore. He was always throwing stuff at them, hitting, kicking, biting, etc. When we got together with the family, he was just told to stop it and nothing more, so there was crying every few minutes from one of my kids. I finally told my kids that getting together with friends is supposed to be fun and I wasn't going to bring them over there to be abused. I told them I expected them to be nice to him, but he wasn't being discplined and it wasn't going to change. When he decided to attempt to cause bodily harm to my oldest, my son pinned him to the floor and told him to knock if off. The boy wailed like he had been wronged.

The mom told me, "They just need to get used to each other." She said, "Do you know about bullying? It starts when you teach kids not to like each other." So my kids are the bullies because I'm not going to make them play with him? I told my kids, "No, you don't have to 'get used to' people hurting you. You can tell them 'Let's get together when you're ready to be nice.'"

Sorry you're in such a lame situation!

[Suzie]

Play with your child and praise her for those things she can control. Teach her that she has worth. I know this sounds funny because you love your child. Sometimes we teach them that others are worth more of our time then they are. We do not do this on purpose. Sometimes our actions speak louder then our words. Let it go...

Zippy, don't you think that perhaps you are making assumptions about Wingnut? Stating that she should play with her child, and praise her, etc indirectly hints that she doesn't do that which in my limited view doesn't seem to be the case. Wingnut seems to be a genuine, very caring mother (I am not saying you are saying otherwise).

Why did you take two and half years to realize that these people are not very nice. Remember I mention that sometimes our children learn lessons in ways we do not realize. I wonder where he has learned his social lessons. We, as parents teach our children "the bad" and "the good" of life. Sometimes it may just be as simple as how we treat others. I do know you care for your daughter. I wish you well.

There are people who believe in giving others a second, third or fourth chance, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Wingnut]

Wingnut, I do not not know how to say this anyway but this way.

She may be picking up the wrong signal from "you". You know this relationship is not good for your daughter.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I avoid the family, but my daughter keeps asking for playdates with R. So I'm honestly at a loss as to what you mean here.

Teach her that she has worth. I know this sounds funny because you love your child. Sometimes we teach them that others are worth more of our time then they are. We do not do this on purpose. Sometimes our actions speak louder then our words.

This is a good point. I do need to be more self-aware, and realize what I'm teaching my daughter when I'm not doing it on purpose.

School could be a good thing. She can make friends with others. You can arrange play dates for her. Her social circle will be getting larger.

Already doing it. She's in preschool with 11 other kids, none of whom know R or his family. We do playdates. She just still frequently asks for them with R.

I hope I have not hurt your feelings. There has been enough of that.

You haven't, and I appreciate the acknowledgement. :)

Why did you take two and half years to realize that these people are not very nice.

There was nothing wrong for the first year and a half (or so) that they lived across the street. They were very nice. They stayed with my daughter overnight and all weekend once when I had to take my husband to the ER at 1am (see previous mention of crisis situations.) The awkward conversation in my OP only happened just over a year ago, and things have been tense and distant since then.

[MorningStar]

That's very hard. My son asked for a while to play with this boy, but I just had to tell him repeatedly that he would have to play with other children because he wasn't safe playing with him and nothing was being done to change his behavior. I feel so bad for kids in these situations, especially the ones who aren't being disciplined and run out of playmates because of it.

[Guest]

Additionally: I've never believe in the excuse "he's just that way" or "boys will be boys" or even an attitude of either. Children can learn to behave.

In a perfect world, applepansy.

I remember my friend's lament to me sometime last year when I saw her in the elementary school hallway... she just had a kid in her class throw his poop at her smack dab on the middle of her blouse. I would like to see you teach that kid to behave. Yes, he has some form of autism.

Unfortunately, there are so many of us who doesn't bother to analyze the situation to identify the presence of a disorder. I mean, he acts normal enough, right. Not that they couldn't learn, eventually. But, they need that special somebody who will have the patience to teach them instead of just calling it "an excuse" when they don't learn to behave as fast as them "normal kids" do.

Edited April 16, 2013 by anatess

[DMGNUT]

Wow, the emotional roller coaster ride this thread has taken me on, makes me dizzy.

It also upsets me that some here, who strike me as being good and gentle, would have to suffer so much, at the hands of uncaring buffoons.

Some of the things that some of you on this thread have endured amazes and impresses me beyond words.

You have the patience of Job.

I do not.

So..... at the risk of being banned, I will share a story.

I will not offer it as advice, because it would not be very good advice.

Mind you (as my introduction says), I'm a red-neck, country-boy, truck driver.

My wife has often described me as kind and friendly, with a bit of a twisted sense of humor, and I believe I am (kind and friendly).

But, I also have an over-developed sense of fair play.

And I have no room in my life for the sycophant progressive mind-set, or "touchy, feel-good" political correctness.

I am polite, but only to a point... and once I reach that point, I call things the way I see them... (often with great bluntness).

So... a year(+/-) "before" I joined the church... is when this occurred.

According to 3 teachers, a "known" bully picked a fight with my son (they were both 9 at the time).

My son wouldn't let him cut in line for some activity in a gym class.

When he hit my son and knocked him to the floor, my son did just what I told him to do if a bully picks a fight with him, he got up, knocked the bully down, then fell upon him and beat him until a teacher pulled him off. (Let the flaming begin)

My son got suspended for 3 days.

And I got called to the Principle's Office.

I'm guessing it was the principle's intention to lecture me about my parenting skills.

It was my intention to find out why my son was being suspended for an altercation that was started by another child... a child who was known for "starting" things, and never suffering consequences for them.

The details are not important... but suffice it to say that after about 20 minutes of not seeing eye to eye, the principle decided to call the police to have me removed from his office (and that the suspension would stand).

I asked how long it would take them to arrive... and I told him that's how long I'd beat him... until they arrived to pull me off.

I told him that decisions have consequences, and that I was willing to go to jail for my decision to stand up for my son's wrongful punishment...

Was he willing to take a beating for his decision to be politically correct, and punish my son for standing up to a bully?

In the end, my son's suspension was reduced from 3 days to 1 day, the other boy's was increased from 1 day to 3 days... and they never again called me when there was a problem at school... from then on, they always called Mom.

[Guest]

Wow, the emotional roller coaster ride this thread has taken me on, makes me dizzy.

It also upsets me that some here, who strike me as being good and gentle, would have to suffer so much, at the hands of uncaring buffoons.

Some of the things that some of you on this thread have endured amazes and impresses me beyond words.

You have the patience of Job.

I do not.

So..... at the risk of being banned, I will share a story.

I will not offer it as advice, because it would not be very good advice.

Mind you (as my introduction says), I'm a red-neck, country-boy, truck driver.

My wife has often described me as kind and friendly, with a bit of a twisted sense of humor, and I believe I am (kind and friendly).

But, I also have an over-developed sense of fair play.

And I have no room in my life for the sycophant progressive mind-set, or "touchy, feel-good" political correctness.

I am polite, but only to a point... and once I reach that point, I call things the way I see them... (often with great bluntness).

So... a year(+/-) "before" I joined the church... is when this occurred.

According to 3 teachers, a "known" bully picked a fight with my son (they were both 9 at the time).

My son wouldn't let him cut in line for some activity in a gym class.

When he hit my son and knocked him to the floor, my son did just what I told him to do if a bully picks a fight with him, he got up, knocked the bully down, then fell upon him and beat him until a teacher pulled him off. (Let the flaming begin)

My son got suspended for 3 days.

And I got called to the Principle's Office.

I'm guessing it was the principle's intention to lecture me about my parenting skills.

It was my intention to find out why my son was being suspended for an altercation that was started by another child... a child who was known for "starting" things, and never suffering consequences for them.

The details are not important... but suffice it to say that after about 20 minutes of not seeing eye to eye, the principle decided to call the police to have me removed from his office (and that the suspension would stand).

I asked how long it would take them to arrive... and I told him that's how long I'd beat him... until they arrived to pull me off.

I told him that decisions have consequences, and that I was willing to go to jail for my decision to stand up for my son's wrongful punishment...

Was he willing to take a beating for his decision to be politically correct, and punish my son for standing up to a bully?

In the end, my son's suspension was reduced from 3 days to 1 day, the other boy's was increased from 1 day to 3 days... and they never again called me when there was a problem at school... from then on, they always called Mom.

WHOA! I know I'm not supposed to laugh but this is awesome... did you really beat up the principal??? There have been plenty plenty plenty plenty times I've been wanting to do that to my son's elementary school principal...

And here's my redneck contribution... my 11-year-old is a BJJ student. When he started middle school, the girls keep on touching his hair. At first he didn't know how to stop it and sometimes he would come home and just cry in frustration. My husband had a man-to-man with him and my husband taught him some stuff which improved my son's confidence in school and everything was fine. One day, well into the middle of the school year, I asked my son if he still has problems with people touching his hair. He says, no, because one time, some girl continued to touched his hair after he told her to stop, so he put her in a kimora and told her, "I will let go of your arm now, but if you touch my hair again I will break your arm". And yes, he learned to handle this situation from his dad. And so I had a long talk with my husband about it because what if the girl dared to touch his hair? Do we really expect him to break the girl's arm??? And my husband said, Yes. You don't say it unless you mean it and is willing to face the consequences of it. I still don't agree that my son should have done it - he was lucky the girl did not challenge him, otherwise, my son would surely be expelled from school. But, it's one of those battles that I chose not to fight my husband on.

Edited April 16, 2013 by anatess

[Wordnerd]

And I have no room in my life for the sycophant progressive mind-set, or "touchy, feel-good" political correctness.

I am with you on this point. We have taught our son that he is allowed to defend himself or others who need protecting from bullies, including by force if necessary, so long as he does not start the fight. Or as my husband puts it "you don't start it but you can sure as heck end it!" He has been suspended twice for involvement in fights, the school policy is to suspend anyone involved regardless of circumstances. Both times, he was hit or violently shoved first, both times the bullies had a "posse" backing up their cowardly behaviour, and both times the bullying ended because my son put the bully on the ground with one punch, and then walked away. We did not fight the school on the suspensions because we know the policy and it was evenly applied. I think it's OK for kids to learn that sometimes even if you do what you believe to be right, it may not be socially acceptable and that we always have to accept the consequences of our actions, no matter whether or not it seems just. And bullies need to learn that they won't always get away with their behaviour, because there are people out there who will stand up to them, even if it is against the "rules".

[Wingnut]

Well, I had to face the music today, guys.

My daughter just saw R's mom's car in the driveway and asked if she could go play with R. I took a deep breath and told her that I didn't know why, but R wasn't very nice to her. I reminded her of how he yells in her face and doesn't let her play in group games. I reminded her how she's always sad after playing with him, and that her feelings get hurt a lot. She put her head down, and sadly acknowledged it. I told her that since he couldn't be nice to her, and I didn't like it when people hurt her feelings, that they wouldn't be able to play together anymore. She was sad, but okay with it.

Then she quickly moved on to a new game with my mom, who's visiting this week.

If not for all of your suggestions, I still wouldn't have known what to say to her, and would have just brushed it off awkwardly again. It might take a few more reminders still, but she accepted my explanation without contest.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Wingnut
remove extra comma