Lottery

[Anddenex]

God is a God of truth and cannot lie (Ether 3:12). In the same way, I am convinced that God cannot command dishonesty or lying.

God commanded Sarai to tell the Egyptians that she was Abram's sister.

Therefore, what Sarai said was not a lie.

Which part of this logical construct do you think fails?

Excellent scripture and thoughts. In Genesis 20: 2 we are told, "And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah."

Therefore, in light of this scripture, Abrahm said Sarah was his sister.

Merriam dictionary:

1. to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

2. to create a false or misleading impression

Was a false or misleading impression given to Abimelech by Abraham? The answer would be yes.

How does your heart interpret the definition of a lie in relation to "God is a God of truth and cannot lie (Ether 3:12)"? And, I am convinced that God cannot command dishonesty or lying?

Edited May 20, 2013 by Anddenex
Sentence in italics added

[Letrell]

I often dream about how cool it would be to get hit by lightning and survive. I would have a cool scar to show people.

I've got a far, far, far better chance of realizing my dream, than you people do. Like 5000% better chances, or something like that.

My grandfather was struck by lightening and did not live. Why in the world you would want to gamble with your life is beyond me. Okay, so you are struck...and if you die? You just gonna feel ridiculous cuz you ended your life on a gamble? We "people" are talking about spending $2 on a ticket...a chance to win some money. You on the other hand are talking about gambling with your life.

LOL...I'll take the Lottery anytime! I'm not quite ready to face the Lord.

LOL.

Thanks for the laugh!

[Vort]

Excellent scripture and thoughts. In Genesis 20: 2 we are told, "And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah."

Therefore, in light of this scripture, Abrahm said Sarah was his sister.

Merriam dictionary:

1. to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

2. to create a false or misleading impression

Was a false or misleading impression given to Abimelech by Abraham? The answer would be yes.

How does your heart interpret the definition of a lie in relation to "God is a God of truth and cannot lie (Ether 3:12)"? And, I am convinced that God cannot command dishonesty or lying?

First, Abram did not make a false statement. His statement was true; Sarai was indeed his (half-)sister. So definition #1 does not apply.

Second, the impression created was not false, merely incomplete. So definition #2 also does not apply. We are commanded to be truthful, but that does not mean we reveal every last thing we know; on the contrary, we are explicitly instructed to keep some things to ourselves, and taught that God does not tell us as much as he might because we do not know how to keep such truths to ourselves. (The doctrine that "As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become" is probably an example of exactly this: A sacred truth that we have unwisely trumpeted around, and has now been picked up by our enemies and misused to slander us and the gospel of Christ. How much better off we might have been to allow people to grow into that truth themselves, step by step and line upon line, rather than to try to feed the beef burrito to the infant.)

I believe that some information is itself sacred, and we are under no moral imperative to share such privileged information openly. Lying to the Nazis about harboring Jews in your attic is not a "lie" in any reasonable moral interpretation of the term. I'm not talking about the mythical "holy lie" that anti-Mormons like to accuse us of and that moral relativists like to use (notwithstanding my Nazi example); I'm talking about simply staying away from certain topics. Abram's marital status was his own business, but in the situation described, it would have gotten him murdered if it had been widely known. So the Lord told him not to trumpet that fact, but instead to offer another, less complete (but still true) status. Only later, when the danger was past, was he authorized to tell the deeper truth.

That's my take, anyway. In any case, since God commanded Abram and Sarai to tell the Egyptians that Sarai was Abram's sister, I cannot find any justification to call it a "lie", since that would invariably lead to accusing God of commanding his people to lie -- something I believe is false by definition and therefore impossible.

[talisyn]

I didn't buy a lottery ticket, and I was tempted. TBH, I'm always tempted to buy a lottery ticket no matter how 'low' the prize lol. But I am very proud of myself for resisting

[Anddenex]

That's my take, anyway. In any case, since God commanded Abram and Sarai to tell the Egyptians that Sarai was Abram's sister, I cannot find any justification to call it a "lie", since that would invariably lead to accusing God of commanding his people to lie -- something I believe is false by definition and therefore impossible.

Thank you for your thoughts. Our difference is that I believe Abraham and Sarai both provided a "misleading impression" that Sarai was only Abraham's sister -- a half-truth.

I don't have any problem with God commanding a person to lie when the lie is justified. You mention Nazi's and I agree with you. My honest opinion, people who are protecting individuals from death have a good reason to mislead the perpetrator, especially if the perpetrator is abusing power and ultimately performing criminal activity.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

I've heard that you're more likely to die on your way to buy the ticket than you are to actually win.

I've also heard a joke that the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

For those reasons and more, I've never played. Though I do sometimes daydream about finding a winning ticket on the ground.

[Letrell]

Yanno...just because one person believes something was a lie doesn't make it true. The definition of a lie was quoted for what MAN says a lie is. I don't believe the Lord had anything much to do with writing our modern dictionaries.

If you want to believe Abraham lied, hey, go for it. I for one, think you are treading on thin ice here. But, it is your opinion, just as it is mine that following a direct command of the Lord is just a tad more important than symantics.

Sorry...I just can't keep reading over and over people trashing the honor of Abraham. It brings out something inside of me that actually aches.

Please stop with the calling Abraham a liar. It truly, truly is not right.

And quite honestly, I don't think the Lord really cares if we approve of what He commands or not. He commands and we obey. Or have I totally lost site of what the Gospel is?

[Anddenex]

Please stop with the calling Abraham a liar. It truly, truly is not right.

And quite honestly, I don't think the Lord really cares if we approve of what He commands or not. He commands and we obey. Or have I totally lost site of what the Gospel is?

And I should listen to you, why? Why is your thoughts right, and another person's isn't? A lie, misleading impression is still a lie. Abraham, my thoughts, lied as commanded by God. He also told the truth.

I don't believe anyone here was saying they didn't approve with God's commands. I believe the majority of people on this site agree if God commands we obey.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Anddenex

[dahlia]

Taken from lds.org

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is opposed to gambling, including lotteries sponsored by governments. Church leaders have encouraged Church members to join with others in opposing the legalization and government sponsorship of any form of gambling.

Interesting. Since we have agency, why not let people make the decisions they want to make? I think lotteries are a waste of effort and money, but I wouldn't join a group to stop lotteries, casino boats , casinos (unless there were other issues involved), etc. This is approaching the territory of religious zealots (or liberals) trying to tell other people how to live their lives.

Is the Church against BINGO nights, as well?

[Letrell]

Excellent point, Dahlia!!! (My guess though is that bingo is in there as well. I would think it would be. You are still paying money to take a chance to win more.) I played bingo once. I had one card and was sitting across from a really really old lady, crypt keeper age...I mean OOOOLLLLDDD. She had like 12 cards in front of her. Each number called, holy cow, you should have seen her stamping her cards! BAM BAM BAM BAM...and I'm casually just looking at my card trying to find the ONE number; when I see the hand appear over my card and BAM, she hits the number and says something like...gotta be fast, dear. I believe I was humiliated into following the guidance of not gambling. My roommate was next to me...her laughter can probably still be heard hanging over that building!!! LOL. It was hysterical.

[Vort]

Interesting. Since we have agency, why not let people make the decisions they want to make? I think lotteries are a waste of effort and money, but I wouldn't join a group to stop lotteries, casino boats , casinos (unless there were other issues involved), etc. This is approaching the territory of religious zealots (or liberals) trying to tell other people how to live their lives.

Is the Church against BINGO nights, as well?

Yes, in the sense that the Church never sponsors Bingo or other lotteries.

State lotteries are criminal. If private organizations want to do their own lotteries or whatever, that's fine. But state-sponsored lotteries are a tax on the stupid, and it's the children of the stupid who suffer the most. The state should not be involved in peddling drugs, sponsoring lotteries, or selling indulgences.

[Leah]

I know SOME people are stupid when it comes to the lottery, but I never got myself all worked up about it before I joined the church (still don't).

I don't see it as much different than fund-raising raffles where tickets are sold for x price, for a chance on x prize. You know you probably aren't going to win, but you spend a couple of bucks and you know your money is going to a worthy cause. One that you CHOSE to support.

My late husband liked to buy a lottery ticket now and again. The fun part for him was thinking about how he could help other people if he won a big jackpot.

[Letrell]

I don't see them at all as criminal. When we lived in New Mexico, I learned that 100% of their State Lottery went into education. Well, I didn't buy that at all. Living for many years in California, I learned that even though money is funded for something, crooked lawmakers and money-grubbers steal those funds to cover what they themselves want to fund. So I didn't believe it for a minute.

Then I met a college student working at the local internet office. She was studying the day I went in and we got to talking...as it turned out, she told me that 100% of her college education was paid for by lottery funds. She was on her own, her parents were not alive, and she was over 18...so received no aide. Bless her heart, she was making something of herself.

I think it is a good thing. To be a crime I think there probably has to be deception. The lottery is flat out...pay for a ticket, we draw numbers, if we draw yours, you win. Tahdahhhhh.

Although I don't play now, I used to buy tickets here and there. Always lost the big one..LOL...go figure...probably won enough $2 and $4 dollar prizes to pay for the tickets I bought. Would I do it now? No. I read the Church's policy and adhering to that policy means more to me than buying a ticket.

The criminal statement...might be a bit severe, but I do get why you are saying it. And I certainly would never slight you for feeling that way. You make valid points.

Thanks.

[Blackmarch]

I have never played the lottery in my life.

But 590 million!? wow

Winning ticket for $590.5 million Powerball lottery sold in Florida

I know the Church doesn't take tithing from the winnings but is playing the lottery a sin?

Very highly discouraged where it is legal. Gambling profits only comes from the loss of others. To say nothing of the addiction element which does cross into the area of sin (as well as breaking teh law element with illegal gambling). Edited May 22, 2013 by Blackmarch

[carlimac]

I think one of the main reasons we are counseled not to gamble is for our own good- to avoid a possible addiction. One drink of alcohol won't kill you but the cumulative effect once addicted is devestating. THe loss from a gambling addiction has the potential of destroying life (probably mostly figuratively but I'm sure there have been actual physical deaths tied closely to this particular addiction.)

All commandments ( and even counsel or strong encouragement) from God and our prophets is for our own safetly and good.

That said, I have played the slots before. Bought $5 worth of quarters in Vegas one time. With every coin that went in the slot I thought, " I just threw another one down the drain." I'm so glad I didn't win. That's where the addiction starts. I've never gambled since aside from buying raffle tickets for a charitable cause. I've lived in two states with legalized gambling for 14 years. It's been a temptation now and then, but I always remember the ridiculous feeling of throwing quarters away in Vegas and I'm brought back to reality.

[jerome1232]

I've never gambled since aside from buying raffle tickets for a charitable cause. I've lived in two states with legalized gambling for 14 years.

It just occured to me that I've never thought of raffle tickets as gambling, although it really is just like a lottery isn't it.

Thanks for ruining raffles for me.

[Guest]

So, a few years ago, I bought scratch-off tickets and gave them away for Christmas presents. I have family scattered all over the place and I thought hmm... I can save money on shipping by just enclosing scratch-off tickets in with the Christmas Card!

I was surprised that several of my cousins (non-LDS, the lot of them) wrote/called me saying that they can't accept my gift. I thought if it's going to be a gift, then it wouldn't be immoral. I still think that today.

[beefche]

Personally, I'd rather have the $1 or whatever amount spent on getting the lottery tickets. To me, I can actually get something with the $1 besides a piece of paper that will reveal I won nothing and now I have a piece of trash to get rid of.

[Martain]

Quoting from Bruce R McConkie's book "Mormon Doctrine" I share the following which I've personally confirmed via prayer as being true. I too was very surprised when I learned that raffling is also gambling and not the Lord's way.

Gambling

Gambling is the playing or gaming for money or other stakes with a view to getting something for little or nothing; elements of luck and chance are always present - all of which, when taken together, form a system which is not of God. Gambling is in opposition to the divine will; it is a wicked, evil practice, destructive of the finer sensitivities of the soul. No matter how cloaked or disguised, and no matter how professedly worthy an accompanying money raising scheme may be, gambling is morally wrong and will be avoided by all who are saints in deed. Clubs, civic organizations, fraternal groups, governments, and sometimes even some churches, sponsor, support, approve, or conduct various gambling enterprises as part of their fund raising programs. Such sponsorship has no sanctifying or transforming power. Gambling is gambling, and is to be shunned, no matter where it is found. In every concern of life the element of chance is present, and this fact of itself does not classify an enterprise as gambling. "The element of chance enters very largely into everything we undertake," President Joseph F. Smith said, "and it should be remembered that the spirit in which we do things decides very largely whether we are gambling or are entering into legitimate business enterprise." (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., p. 326.)

Lotteries

Lotteries are one of the most flagrant forms of gambling. Ordinarily they are organized enterprises in which lots or chances are sold with prize winners being chosen by drawings. The fact that lotteries are often sponsored by governments social and civic organizations and even some churches merely shows how far these organizations have departed from true gospel standards.

Raffling

Raffles are a form of lottery and as such are gambling. Ordinarily raffling practices call for a number of persons to pay, in shares, the value or assumed value of something, and then to determine by chance which one shall have it. President Joseph F. Smith counseled: "No kind of chance game, guessing contest, or raffling device can be approved in any entertainment under the auspices of our church organizations. "The desire to get something of value for little or nothing is pernicious; and any proceeding that strengthens that desire is an effective aid to the gambling spirit, which has proved a veritable demon of destruction to thousands. Risking a dime in the hope of winning a dollar in any game of chance is a species of gambling. "Let it not be thought that raffling articles of value, offering prizes to the winners in guessing contests, the use of machines of chance, or any other device of the kind is to be allowed or excused because the money so obtained is to be used for a good purpose. The Church is not to be supported in any degree by means obtained through gambling. ... "President Young once said to Sister Eliza R. Snow: 'Tell the sisters not to raffle. If the mothers raffle, the children will gamble. Raffling is gambling.' Some say: 'What shall we do? We have quilts on hand - we cannot sell them, and we need means to supply our treasury, which we can obtain by raffling for the benefit to the poor. Rather let the quilts rot on the shelves than adopt the old adage, 'The end will sanctify the means.' As Latter-day Saints, we cannot afford to sacrifice moral principle to financial gain." (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., p. 327.) In answer to the query, "Is it proper to raffle property for the benefit of missionaries?" President Smith said emphatically, No. Then he gave this suggestion with reference to a horse involved in a particular case. "Let everybody give a dollar, and let the donors decide by vote to what worthy man, not of their number, the horse shall be given. No chance about that - it is pure decision, and it helps the people who wish to buy chances solely for the benefit of the missionary to discourage the gambling propensities of their natures." (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., p. 326.)

[Dravin]

I rarely think about lotteries and gambling in terms of morality. These are just activities for people who either don't understand the math or don't care that they are throwing money away.

It all comes down to expected value. In most casino games and scratch off tickets, the expected value is fixed. And the expected value is always lower than the amount you pay to play (meaning that you are bound to lose money in the long run).

I remember doing expected values as part of the homework for my statistics course. They used gambling in various forms for the examples and problems. It was quite neat to see something you have floating around in your head, that the house has an advantage, and see it quantified using statistics.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Dravin