We Don't Teach Jesus?

[Guest simoneez]

I would tell you, but I'd get banned just by saying why. At this point, I even think chances are slim anyone will even read THIS post.

[Timpman]

Context is everything. Elder McConkie spoke about " a special relationship with Christ" a problem that had been creeping into the church and did so at the behest of the First Presidency. The Heresy talk and Our relationship with the Lord talk was given as an Apostle and in a forum such as a BYU Fireside was not done "off the cuff" and there isn't anything in the talk that is not doctrine.

Yes, context is very important. I still respectfully disagree with the talk. Even a talk "given as an Apostle and in a forum such as a BYU Fireside" is not necessarily doctrine. I think it was "A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion" that "represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church."

It doesn't seem to qualify as something following this pattern: "With divine inspiration, the First Presidency...and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles...counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Approaching Mormon Doctrine

This concept is very important to me. Without it, we have to consider some troubling things to be current or past doctrine.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I think that the best explanation would be that mainstream Christianity is better at connecting everything they teach back to Jesus.

On our side, we link things to past prophets (which is where the whole 'you Mormons worship old Joe Smith' may have some grounding), but we don't always follow through the rest of the links back to Jesus in the same way. The links and connections are there, but we don't necessarily include the Savior's role as often.

Part of this could be that we seem to have more material (ie. the standard works, living prophets) to explore, study, and teach about.

Just my two cents.

[prisonchaplain]

Typical traditional Christian Sunday School class:

Teacher: Who do we celebrate at Christmas?

Students: Jesus!

T: Who gave us the Beatitudes?

S: Jesus!

T: Who died for our sins?

S: Jesus!

T: Who brought the animals on the ark?

S: Jesus!

T: Well, Noah was the one that Jesus used, so you got the right idea...

[ElectofGod]

It depends on the ward or branch and the spirituality of the members. I was in a branch wehre the entire testimony meeting they talked about what they did for the week. Or times where the talk was nothing about Christ at all. not mentioned once, than they talked about cool stories, ideas, never quoted scripture. Or that story of seeing demons in the sky, just depends what part of the world.

Utah's meetings have some bland ones too as if the members are just "its ANOTHER week?" uh.. here we go again.

Think about it the scriptures state "they met together oft in fasting and prayer"... They met together not like we do today in church. The expounded true doctrine, teachings, they :LEARNED great truths every week instead of reading the basic gospel principle book over and over, and getting the same interpretations of scriptures over and over again like no one ever gains new insight. It happens. The problem is the large growth and new converts. Its not a good thing and the scriptures warn of fast growth in a church, popularity, and prosperity as signs that the church is drifting off course (the tares are increasing).

These are the signs that cause the cleansing christ talks about in the new testament. We are years away if that. I sense this gay marriage is the beginning. Scalia is already trying to get the LDS church to be forced to practice gay marraige AND lose its tax exempt status. (probably all churches)

[james12]

How did those just after Christ connect everything to Christ?

I'm intrigued with what Moroni explains in Moroni 6 about how the church was conducted. It seems to me there are subtle but distinct differences between then and now. I think Moroni rightly discusses more than just their meetings. It starts at baptism. They brought forth fruits, they evidenced a broken heart and contrite spirit, the witnessed to the church that they had repented, they were determined to serve Christ. I find it interesting that they witnessed before the church. While we conduct an interview I'm not convinced this is what Moroni is talking about. Did these people come before the body of the church and witness their repentance? Also, they had to be determined to follow Christ to the end. I'm also not sure we emphasize this point before baptism. What if we did?

After the above criteria were met they were baptized and after they were wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost they then were numbered and nurtured to keep them watchful unto prayer and relying alone upon Christ. Note: after they were wrought upon by the Holy Ghost. What if they were not wrought upon by the Holy Ghost? Were they numbered among the people of Christ?

I have other thoughts on this scripture but I'm out of time. What do you think? Was it different in the time just after Christ?

[Just_A_Guy]

Scalia is already trying to get the LDS church to be forced to practice gay marraige AND lose its tax exempt status. (probably all churches)

Minor correction: Justice Scalia is perhaps warning of this (with regard to all churches, not specifically us), but he is not advocating it.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Timpman]

There's a simple solution to that: all we have to do is stop performing marriages. We could perform dealings ONLY as is done in some countries already.

[Maureen]

There's a simple solution to that: all we have to do is stop performing marriages. We could perform dealings ONLY as is done in some countries already.

Sealings are only performed for couples who are married. Parents cannot even be sealed to their children if they are not at first sealed to their spouse. So what are these countries that do sealings without marriage being involved?

M.

[Dravin]

Sealings are only performed for couples who are married. Parents cannot even be sealed to their children if they are not at first sealed to their spouse. So what are these countries that do sealings without marriage being involved?

M.

I suspect he's not arguing that no legal marriage be performed, but rather like in the UK, a civil marriage is performed according to the dictates of the state (which precludes it occurring inside of the temple), followed quickly by a sealing instead of them being performed concurrently as is possible in the United States. In short, if hypothetically we're told, "You can't refuse to marry homosexuals or we'll *bad thing*." Timpman is suggesting we just say, "Fine, we won't perform marriages period." Saying we'll only perform sealings isn't the same as saying marriage won't be a prerequisite as you seem to be taking it.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Dravin

[Timpman]

Thanks, Dravin. That is what I meant. Performing only sealings for those who are already married civilly would not constitute a legal procedure so the dang government couldn't mess with it. But I suppose this is quite a tangent from the topic of this thread so that's all I will say about it.

[embryopocket]

The LDS Church's #1 focus is Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. However, MEMBERS of the LDS Church...that's a different story entirely. I see in church (mostly in Utah) that the restored gospel has become more tradition than true religion in the eyes of the members. Many members of the church don't have testimonies of the gospel, but go to church because everybody else goes. We have become like the Pharisees, focused way too much on THE LAW when we should be focused on THE GIVER OF THE LAW, Jesus Christ.

This is evident during some testimony meetings when people stand up and repeat Rameumpton-like chants "I'd like to bear my testimony, I know the church is true, I know that...." Also, parents whispering into kids ears what they should say. I hate that. The kid grows up lying to the whole congregation by saying that HE/SHE knows something when it's really coming from the parents. We need to listen to the prophets' voices (both living and dead) and focus more on Christ. When we give our testimonies we should talk from our hearts.

[Leah]

The LDS Church's #1 focus is Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. However, MEMBERS of the LDS Church...that's a different story entirely. I see in church (mostly in Utah) that the restored gospel has become more tradition than true religion in the eyes of the members. Many members of the church don't have testimonies of the gospel, but go to church because everybody else goes. We have become like the Pharisees, focused way too much on THE LAW when we should be focused on THE GIVER OF THE LAW, Jesus Christ.

This is evident during some testimony meetings when people stand up and repeat Rameumpton-like chants "I'd like to bear my testimony, I know the church is true, I know that...." Also, parents whispering into kids ears what they should say. I hate that. The kid grows up lying to the whole congregation by saying that HE/SHE knows something when it's really coming from the parents. We need to listen to the prophets' voices (both living and dead) and focus more on Christ. When we give our testimonies we should talk from our hearts.

I don't get it. What is wrong with people saying they know that the church is true when they are bearing their testimony?

[embryopocket]

Absolutely nothing if they say it from their hearts. But you can discern through the Spirit when someone is really giving their testimony or if they are just saying things that they always say. :) That was the point of my post.

[Leah]

Absolutely nothing if they say it from their hearts. But you can discern through the Spirit when someone is really giving their testimony or if they are just saying things that they always say. :) That was the point of my post.

I am not really into judging whether someone's testimony on fast Sunday is sincere or not. That's not my call to make. That's between them and Heavenly Father. And I really don't have any problem with someone saying the same thing they've said before. If their words seem repetitive, perhaps it is because their testimony is strong and unshakeable. It's not necessary to have new, elaborate story to tell each time you share your testimony. I've shared my testimony on numerous occasions (sometimes by request) and I would be very dismayed to know that someone is judging my testimony as insincere and not from my heart, just because my words don't vary wildly from one sharing to the next.

[embryopocket]

I am not really into judging whether someone's testimony on fast Sunday is sincere or not. That's not my call to make. That's between them and Heavenly Father. And I really don't have any problem with someone saying the same thing they've said before. If their words seem repetitive, perhaps it is because their testimony is strong and unshakeable. It's not necessary to have new, elaborate story to tell each time you share your testimony. I've shared my testimony on numerous occasions (sometimes by request) and I would be very dismayed to know that someone is judging my testimony as insincere and not from my heart, just because my words don't vary wildly from one sharing to the next.

I can understand how you have misunderstood my post, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'm not sitting there judging everyone's testimonies. I am also not saying that the words that you say have to vary every time that you give your testimony. What I am saying is that the Spirit tells me when someone is giving a sincere testimony or when they are not. It is a gift of the Spirit. When I feel through the Spirit that someone is not being sincere, it is typical that they are just repeating what they always repeat. Vain repetitions as Jesus describes it. I don't "look down on" or think evil of anyone who does this because it is not my place to judge anybody, I just love. What I am saying is that in our church we unfortunately have a culture beginning from whispering words into our children's ears that plays down the importance of bearing true testimony.

[pam]

In a stake conference a few years back, our Stake President gave us some words regarding testimonies. Of course I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it exact but basically he said this: "Share your testimony and share it often. Even if you don't feel that it is that strong or that you might be repeating yourself and have nothing more to add. But sharing it over and over will make it easier for you to do so and will strengthen your testimony along the way."

[Jman4201]

The problem with testimonies and actually the problem with having unpaid clergy and using the congregation to speak the weekly messages is that honestly some people just aren't good public speakers. A person steps up to the pulpit with every intention of speaking his or her heartfelt testimony, looks out on his/her peers and......FREEZES!!!!!!! Lol. C'mon you know it's happened. ;-) so what happens? They fall back on the tried and true, 'I know the scripture are true, that Joseph Smith is/was a true prophet...' They wrap it up and high tail it back to their seats to hide behind someone...anyone.

I do agree with the children thing though. I can't stand when a child goes up and has their parents whispering in their ear. They're not learning a thing and that sort of thing should be done in primary to start and work up to bearing their testimony when they're teens and more capable of forming their words, thoughts, and opinion. Just my .02 worth.

[mordorbund]

I do agree with the children thing though. I can't stand when a child goes up and has their parents whispering in their ear. They're not learning a thing and that sort of thing should be done in primary to start and work up to bearing their testimony when they're teens and more capable of forming their words, thoughts, and opinion. Just my .02 worth.

Are we criticizing a real thing here? I remember seeing it done when I was a child, but I haven't seen it in the last 15 years or so.

[Jman4201]

As I can't attend meetings on Sunday I'm only going on what my wife tells me and yes it still happens. I think it depends largely on what type of ward you are in. The first ward I was a member of had a HUGE primary group and children 'bearing their testimony' took up nearly half the meeting time during Fast Sundays. (I'll let you know S I believe I'm going to be attending church Sunday...I'm off from work for 3 weeks since we just had our 4 child, a boy.)

[mordorbund]

And to clarify, I'm not talking about primary children giving a testimony (or even reciting a testimony). I've seen that. What I haven't seen is a parent going up with his child and whispering the words in her ear.

I remember hearing a letter read over a pulpit discouraging the practice (about 2000 I think) and haven't seen it since (I have heard similar letters read since then though).

[Anddenex]

I read a letter in March from the First Presidency regarding little children bearing testimony.

[Magen_Avot]

I read a letter in March from the First Presidency regarding little children bearing testimony.

Soooooo... you just leave us hangin'? Just like that?

I see how you are....

C'mon,... tell us what it said! Tell us, Tell us,... TELL US!!!!!

Seriously though, I'm with Pam.

I need to share my testimony more, and judge the testimony of others less, especially when the gifts of patience, tolerance and forbearance are surley tested. The problem isn't their testimony or method of teaching their children to do the same; its my reletive postion to becoming more like Christ. :)

[Maureen]

...I'm off from work for 3 weeks since we just had our 4 child, a boy.)

Congrats on your new baby Jman!

M.

[Guest Shu1ma3ker]

To say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't focus on Jesus is a sign of someone who just doesn't know better or they are intentionally lying.