How the world views it

[Bini]

I was on another forum where it was argued that a husband cannot rape his wife because they are married. Now, a brief online search specifies that indeed this is the case in some places but in other places, it is against the law and is even a felony.

So what is your view on spousal rape? Is it a legitimate offence? Or not? (A side thought of mine: How is this any different from domestic violence, namely, beating your spouse? Should domestic violence also be allowed because a woman is to honour and obey her husband, whatever the demand and at whatever cost? I guess that question is geared towards views that see spousal rape as invalid.)

[Just_A_Guy]

Definitely a "legitimate offense", IMHO.

I do think that the question of "consent" to a particular sexual encounter becomes a much more difficult question within a marriage relationship, at least for the purpose of trying to establish rape. On the one hand, having previously said "I do" could imply that you're more willing to have intercourse with a spouse even on those borderline situations (intoxication, extreme tiredness, etc) that would be more clear-cut examples of rape if the two parties were merely casual acquaintances. But then again--a long-standing monogamous sexual relationship also suggests that the aggressor should be more readily available to read and understand more subtle forms of "no".

So, no easy answers, I guess; except that blanket policies of ignoring "marital rape" are stupid.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Anddenex]

Rape is rape. The relationship between the two doesn't condone physical abuse which is what rape is. As American citizens we place criminal charges on spousal abuse. If a husband beats, or if a wife beats, their spouse they are held accountable before our laws if charges are pressed.

This argument, and others I have heard regarding wives, dumb found me especially people who perpetuate such. A marriage partnership still requires consent to experience an intimate relationship. Her "I do" or "Yes" at the alter doesn't excuse abuse and rape is abuse.

[Quin]

Rape is raps.

However, just like domestic violence, it's almost impossible to prosecute.

Take a case I know from a girlfriend in Washington...

Her husband drugged her, raped her, smashed her skull into the ground so hard he fractured it, and strangled her.

Their 8yo son RECORDED the entire assault.

Wife filed for restraining orders & divorce.

What happened?

"He said/ she said".

He won. Because he was never charged.

Because Washington is a consent state, and their son had filmed his dad without the father's consent.

So the restraining orders were lifted, dad was given 50% custody, and all the family assets. In reparation for the "damage to his reputation" the charges mom levied against him. And because, being a SAHM, she couldn't afford the mortgage & bills.

Of course, she had broken bones, months of medical treatment, had been a stay at home mom (so no job, and dad quits paying all the bills). So by LEAVING her abusive husband... She's alive, but has to deal with him day in and out for the next 10 years. Or abandon her child.

If he'd done ANY of that to a stranger?

He'd be rotting in jail.

That's a very common story in the PACNW. IM considering doing an article on it... But these women, the BRAVE* ones... Who filed charges & left, who are on record... Are usually

- under no disclosure agreements via the courts

- are often still being stalked by their exes

- have "hostages of fate" because their abusive exes are given half custody... And their exes use their kids as hostages

- are destitute or nearly so (SAHMs, not having the money to pay bills are usually denied family assets -like the house-, and having no assets and no job, have custody given entirely to their exes.

* Ut can be argued that the even braver ones stay married to teir abusive spouses in the PacNW... Because all the abuse circles know what usually happens... (Aka see above).

So writing this article scares me, since it could mean the very real imprisonment of women under gag order for coming forward, and the possible deaths & assaults of those kids their a users are using as hostages.

Is it rape?

Of COURSE it's bleeding rape.

Can it be proven? Rarely.

And even if the abuse is proven... Almost nothing, worse than nothing, is done about it.

[Bini]

Quin, if that's accurate it's very disheartening.

I wouldn't be surprised if spousal rape is more common than we think. I would bet many women in this situation let it slide because they don't know what to do or who to contact.

[Roseslipper]

Rape is rape even in a marriage..its abusive, its force, its wrong mnn are u going to comment on my typing and spelling again...or did i do it right? haha

[mirkwood]

You can rape your marriage partner. Proving it may be difficult.

However, just like domestic violence, it's almost impossible to prosecute.

No it isn't. Maybe in the particular case you cited, but I have convicted quite a few men and women over the years for DV. Usually when we run into problems with a case it is because the victim refuses to co-operate with the prosecution.

[Just_A_Guy]

And, being on the opposite side of the spectrum, they're ridiculously hard to defend. No one wants to be the judge/jury that put the Powell kids back with their psychopath father, so courts and juries tend to err on the side of caution in favor of conviction-"reasonable doubt" notwithstanding.

And there are political costs for a prosecutor to drop a DV case, even if under the circumstances it's the right thing to do. There are advocacy groups who track the statistics carefully and will go public if a prosecutor seems too soft on domestic violence.

[Quin]

You can rape your marriage partner. Proving it may be difficult.

No it isn't. Maybe in the particular case you cited, but I have convicted quite a few men and women over the years for DV. Usually when we run into problems with a case it is because the victim refuses to co-operate with the prosecution.

In the area I'm considering writing... It's really, really bad.

Of course there are always the ones who don't wish to press charges... These aren't the cases I'm talking another, althou I've run into a wall here. Because most of the women I've met with DID wish to prosecute (at least at first), but were either denied or convinced not to. many simply were told there wasn't enough evidence. Most said they never spoke to the ADA, hey spoke to a civil employee over the phone... Who usually had the facts wrong. Strangled changes to "held onto and wouldn't let go", broken bones not mentioned, "push down" instead of pushed down stairs. And -final kicker- that the were strongly recommended NOT to press charges, if they wanted child support / didn't want to lose he house, etc. So they were talked out of it. I have no idea how many times this is happening.

On the books, this municipality is "strong on DV". But in reality, it's 1001 roadblocks.

the attorneys and social workers I've met with blame the 'fathers rights' push.

I should apologize, by the way, for continuing to use gender lines, it's even harder for men leaving abusive wives.

My hope is that this is a quirk of this particular area... But there's even been quite a few publicized deaths... Along with a lot more un publicized continued assaults, continued stalking, etc.

In almost EVERY case these same points present

- Spousal abuse proven

- Child abuse proven

- abuser takes weekend anger management seminar

- abuser given 50% -80% custody

- abuser is highly educated working parent

(The nickname is "6 figure sociopath" in the circles I've been researching.)

I have hundreds of cases just over the past 3 years sitting on my desk.

Which is only 1-2 a week, so it's a small percentage of divorce cases, but it's still HUNDREDS).

Several, are so egregious , where the abusive parent put the child in the hospital, and was still given custody while the child was in the hospital (I've interviewed over a dozen PICU & ED staff at the 3 local children's hospitals. They often have to forcibly remove the ABUSED spouse... Because the guy who stomped their 2yo has 50% custody awarded by the courts.

There's also the weird thing that hundreds and hundreds of custody exchanges in precincts got to be such a problem that restraining orders were dismissed to "facilitate custodial exchange". Not because they aged out, or were requested (in fact, reapplications are almost universally denied) but because it is a logistical problem for underfunded police, so the courts -rather than finding a safe alternative- just quash restraining orders.

I'm really tempted to put this slug of a human beings name out on the Web, but one of the "social workers" I spoke to in this city (no bachelors degree, much less masters degree, and only 3 weeks of trainig who is responsible for making recommendations to the court after initial filing) said "These women need to get a grip and learn to get along with their exes. Children need 2 parents. They need to put their children befor ether own selfish wants. Do you know how many women I see each week who are trying to take the kids fom their father's crying abuse? 15 a day. And none of them have money. So if I recommend the kids o with her, what have they got? Nothing. They need to learn to love their kids more than three hate their ex."

She then went on to talk about how self assured, respected, well employed the dads were, while the women were these timid, crying messes. More often than not, she was sure these women were as crazy as their husbands said. If I DO publish this article, I'm going to crucify her.

Word is getting out according to the DV support groups people,.. If you're being abused and have kids... DON'T leave. Because the courts won't protect you. And if the courts won't, the police can't.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Quin

[Traveler]

Like so many things we are looking down stream from the problem. What is a woman doing in a marriage where rape is even a concern or consideration? What kind of man would abuse their wife in such a manner? What kind of society are we to allow such things come about without some kind of support and assistance for those in need?

I must admit - I have no experience in such matters. It is not that I do not doubt such things - but I do not understand how a marriage becomes so bad. But then 3 teenagers can be abudcted for 10 years in a neighborhood and no one knew? Is it possible that our society is too inviting to predators and perverts with a attitude of privacy and live and let live?

I wonder if substance abuse and pornography are also involved. Are we loosing our normal moorings? Is it a surprise that we become what entertains us?

The Traveler

[Swiper]

So what is your view on spousal rape?

A rape is a rape. Enough said.

[NeuroTypical]

I was on another forum where it was argued that a husband cannot rape his wife because they are married.

I sometimes feel like I have lived in two different worlds. Back in the '70's and '80's (and I assume before that), this was pretty much the going opinion culturally. Not only that, but it was pretty much never talked about or even thought much about. When I was growing up, you read a newspaper, and you could find the society page written by and for women, but the authors and contributors were all identified as "Mrs. Bill Mitchell". Only the mocked and scorned 'wimminz libbers' ever made a stink about such things.

Stuff changed (for me at least) in the '90's. There seemed to be a push for dealing with this stuff. Victims came forward and spoke openly to groups of people. Books were written and read. Crime reporting went up.

These days, the notion that spousal rape doesn't exist, comes from a tiny minority of folks, and maybe people who haven't really thought about it much, and are in the process of thinking things through.

[Blackmarch]

I was on another forum where it was argued that a husband cannot rape his wife because they are married. Now, a brief online search specifies that indeed this is the case in some places but in other places, it is against the law and is even a felony.

So what is your view on spousal rape? Is it a legitimate offence? Or not? (A side thought of mine: How is this any different from domestic violence, namely, beating your spouse? Should domestic violence also be allowed because a woman is to honour and obey her husband, whatever the demand and at whatever cost? I guess that question is geared towards views that see spousal rape as invalid.)

such a husband ought to be made a eunuch