Where does tithing go to?

[Guest]

I think I do have a right to know that it isn't being mismanaged, funneled into some other account to make it look like the church didn't use tithing funds for certain things, laundered, giving GAs and other church workers free access to as much as they want without checks/balances to buy things that would be considered opulent or to have free use of church services, or using it to fund one of their many, many business ventures and investments. That sort of thing.

We can agree to disagree, though.

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into? What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control? It's okay to have a say and not leave it up to blind trust of leaders, sometimes.

Okay, here's the basic difference:

Say, you contribute 10% of your money to United Way Campaign. You might want to make sure that United Way is not mismanaging your hard earned cash because if they are, you have a much better use for it - like feeding poor children in Tibet or something. You are under no contract to continue to give money to United Way. You can give it to somebody else or buy an LCD 3D 60" flat screen with it.

Tithing is different from this. Because, you made a covenant to put aside 10% of your gains to the "building of God's Kingdom". Your covenant is to give the money. It has nothing to do with where the money goes. The Prophet can declare that God commanded that tithing should be spent to buy cows to be used for burnt offerings. This does not change the nature of your covenant to pay tithes. The Prophet could possibly spend it on buying a personal Rocketship to Mars to save himself from global warming. This still doesn't change your covenant to pay tithes. Now, you may want to question your membership in the Church - if your testimony still holds that this is the True Church of God on Earth. If that's a No, then your covenant is null and you should not be a member anymore (which also removes you from your covenant to tithe). Also, the Prophet, if he ever mismanages tithe money, may go under condemnation with God. That doesn't condemn you. You acted in faith, you gain the blessings of faith under your covenant.

Okay, is this penetrating your logical musings?

Edited September 12, 2013 by anatess

[Dravin]

Okay, is this penetrating your logical musings?

I think the OP has fallen prey to trying to apply the principles of a democratic government to a kingdom. The US government gains it's authority by the consent of those it governs, this creates a situation in which the government is accountable to the governed. The authority of the Kingdom of God is not a democracy, authority is not gained by the consent of the members of the Kingdom but is granted/given by the head, Christ. Instead of power and authority being granted to the top by the bottom instead it is granted from the top to the bottom.

[estradling75]

I think I do have a right to know that it isn't being mismanaged.

Why?

Lets use a more simple example... Rent... Lets say you pay rent to a landlord...

Payment of your rent gets you defined benefits... Non Payment of Rent imposes defined penalties.

But for some reason because you pay rent you feel that you have the RIGHT to review how he spends all his money. You want to know how much he spends on food, on internet, how big his car payment is, and what other properties he might have.

Don't get me wrong I can totally understand why you might be interested. Because the possibility of his money mismanagement impacting you. But that interest does not grant you the RIGHT to know how he spends his money (Nor try to dictate how he spends it which is alway the next step)

You have to trust your land lord to not run off with your rent and leave you hanging or you need to find a new land lord.

[Just_A_Guy]

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into? What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control? It's okay to have a say and not leave it up to blind trust of leaders, sometimes.

Quite simply:

Because the Council on Disposition of the Tithes was set up by revelation, recorded in Section 120 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

And we are not members of that council.

[prisonchaplain]

Ironically, I get my local congregation's financial report, my district ministry network's report, and the General Council (national) one every year. Once in awhile I'll glance at a few departments, out of curiosity. However, for us non-CPA types, it quickly becomes, "Yep...we got money and spend it--some goes to mission, some to buildings, some to administration, and a tiny amount into a savings margin."

Wild guess as to what may have led your early leadership to be a little less public--your movement has always been controversial, with plenty of outside opposition, no? If so, why give unnecessary fodder, to be twisted and publicized?

[Leah]

That's my point - nobody knows except those who work closest with the General Authorities.

So you are admitting that there is no evidence to back up your suspicions, that it is simply your own bias.

Do you apply this same bias elsewhere? Or is it reserved for the Prophet and other church leaders?

[Leah]

I think I do have a right to know that it isn't being mismanaged, funneled into some other account to make it look like the church didn't use tithing funds for certain things, laundered, giving GAs and other church workers free access to as much as they want without checks/balances to buy things that would be considered opulent or to have free use of church services, or using it to fund one of their many, many business ventures and investments. That sort of thing.

We can agree to disagree, though.

Lots of wild accusations there. But again, nothing to back them up with.

[Leah]

Of course, needs can be furnished for a Mission President who wouldn't be able to live otherwise since he is called to serve.

A wife who is a quad would be a rare situation - one that I would think the prospective Mission Presidents would decline the calling in order to care for her and make sure she has medical care. I don't think there are many situations where a maid would be a needful expense, especially when missionaries are having to do without hot water, air conditioning when it is 115 F outside....

In other words, you want complete control over how tithing is spent, otherwise you won't give it.

[Leah]

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into? What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control? It's okay to have a say and not leave it up to blind trust of leaders, sometimes.

Does your distrust only involve money? Or do you not trust the church leaders in other areas?

[Backroads]

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into? What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control? It's okay to have a say and not leave it up to blind trust of leaders, sometimes.

Me thinketh it would be a tad chaotic to have millions of church members squabbling over how to spend tithing funds...

[pam]

I have a solution to this problem. It you don't trust that the funds are being used appropriately...don't pay tithing. Plain and simple. Geez louise.

Honestly I'm getting tired of the insinuations that our church leaders use the money inappropriately. One can argue as much as they want they have a right to know. I think there are more issues here.

[Palerider]

They buy big trucks....thats how the food gets to the storehouse....they buy clothes and other types of goods....they truck aid all over the country and food and sometimes they fly that food and aid to other countries....all kinds of expenses that are paid for with tithing to operate the church. They buy cars for missionaries..... and they have legal fees to pay for lawyers...attorneys and insurance to pay for....buildings to upkeep and temples and they pay for airfare...could go on and on even more...think about it...think

[slamjet]

You can open the books, let inspectors roam the administration offices, you can let them have access to all the bank account, you can let them sit in on all meetings where finances are discussed, but you will never satisfy those who question how the church spends it's tithing moneys. They will always find some type of scandalous, opaque, hidden, frivolous, wasteful, unwise, or a whole host of how they disapprove how the money is used.

They will never be satisfied so the only answer that needs to be given is the money is used how the church deems necessary under the guidance of the Lord. Any explanation above that is a waste of energy.

[lds2]

I understand the frustration of being "poor" and overall it is just plain hard! wondering when those "windows" will open and start pouring financial blessings? I believe blessings come for the faithful, but if these blessings don't materialize how we want (money, health, friends, etc.) we can get just plain angry at God. Then it doesn't take long to find something or someone in the Church to become offended with..

I knew a woman that left the Church because she didn't think that the Church spent enough money by providing enough services. Her previous church had a daycare, pre-school and an elementary school, exercise classes, had paid professional counselors on site, etc. of course most of these services cost the members extra but she felt that the true church would have such services.

But can you imagine being at the judgment seat of God and asked why you left His Church and your excuse is that you didn't trust His servants with His offerings?

In the Old Testament times the Saints were to give the priests the best of their animals and food for sacrifice. They never saw their burnt offerings again either, nor did they have any say in what happened to these offerings after handing them to the priests. I imagine there were some that didn't trust the priests to actually burn their offering and others felt their offerings were mismanaged by wasting them on the altar when they could be used elsewhere, etc.

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by lds2

[lds2]

Isaiah taught that the sacrifices were worthless when they were not accompanied by repentance and an obedient heart. (Isaiah 1:10-17 )

Micah taught similarly when he proclaimed that God was not interested in the physical act of sacrifice by itself but in the life and heart of the one making the sacrifice. (Micah 6:4-6 )

Jeremiah condemned the belief that as long as the people were faithful to perform the sacrifices, then God would protect them. The symbol of the sacrifice had to be reflected in their individual lives. (Jeremiah 7:1-26 )

Malachi chastised the people for offering the lame and sick animals to God instead of their best firstlings. In doing this he said, the people were defiling the altar and despising God. (Malachi 1:7-14 )

Like others have said over and over again, this is not about accountability of the brethren it is about the life and heart of the one making the sacrifice to the Lord. If you give to the Lord begrudgingly, and are digging for reasons not to give (which I believe you are), are you so different from those who would begrudgingly gave of the sick of their flock and diseased portions of their crops and were ultimately said to "despise God?" Perhaps they even told themselves that if they gave better the priests might be tempted to keep the perfect animals and crops for themselves...

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by lds2

[EarlJibbs]

Of course, needs can be furnished for a Mission President who wouldn't be able to live otherwise since he is called to serve.

A wife who is a quad would be a rare situation - one that I would think the prospective Mission Presidents would decline the calling in order to care for her and make sure she has medical care. I don't think there are many situations where a maid would be a needful expense, especially when missionaries are having to do without hot water, air conditioning when it is 115 F outside....

Something tells me that if you ask a Missionary if they even care that their Mission President and the Mission President's wife (like a Mother to Missionaries) had a maid to help out so that more of the lords work could be done that they wouldnt care at all.

In Venezuela my Mission President had a maid. But what is funny, is that we still think that a Mission Presidents wife just sits around doing nothing. They are working 24/7 just like the President.

Back to the Tithin issue, maybe we can close this thread? There is an overwhelming mutual feeling that once we give, we have no say in the matter. We need to let go. The Judgement any leader will get from God for knowlingly spending Tithes wrong is much worse than any of us can conjur up I'm sure.

I once gave a window mount AC unit to my brother in law, he just got married, had a newborn and no AC. About a week after I gave it to him, they moved into an apartment with AC. What did he do with the AC unit? Obiously he wasnt using it. M ind you, at this time, I didnt have the money to just go out and buy this for him. I gave it from my heart. So I have been bitter until giving and receiving advice in threads like this one. It doesnt matter what he did with it, I gave it away.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon lds2. I hope you are having a good day! :)

Isaiah taught that the sacrifices were worthless when they were not accompanied by repentance and an obedient heart. (Isaiah 1:10-17 )

Micah taught similarly when he proclaimed that God was not interested in the physical act of sacrifice by itself but in the life and heart of the one making the sacrifice. (Micah 6:4-6 )

Jeremiah condemned the belief that as long as the people were faithful to perform the sacrifices, then God would protect them. The symbol of the sacrifice had to be reflected in their individual lives. (Jeremiah 7:1-26 )

Malachi chastised the people for offering the lame and sick animals to God instead of their best firstlings. In doing this he said, the people were defiling the altar and despising God. (Malachi 1:7-14 )

Thanks for posting these scriptures. A little off topic, but these scriptures apply to other ordinances and actions that we do in our religion or life. There have been times where I have thought, for instance, that as long as I was taking part in the physical act of taking the sacrament that I would receive a remission of my sins. Another good example is the temple endowment. I think, based on my experience, to include my own sentiments in the past, many believe that the physical act of going through the endowment is sufficient or all that they have to do in order to receive the promised blessings. However, as you stated so well about sacrifices, in the same way, in order for the ordinance of the endowment to have efficacy, the symbolism of the endowment and the covenants entered into, have to be reflected in our individual lives.

Regards,

Finrock

[gem2477]

So you are admitting that there is no evidence to back up your suspicions, that it is simply your own bias.

Do you apply this same bias elsewhere? Or is it reserved for the Prophet and other church leaders?

You miss my point completely...the church is not forthcoming with financial info. Given that, my point is that no one knows except higher ups/ workers at the COB.Let me turn it around, what evidence do you have that it is managed properly?

[gem2477]

Something tells me that if you ask a Missionary if they even care that their Mission President and the Mission President's wife (like a Mother to Missionaries) had a maid to help out so that more of the lords work could be done that they wouldnt care at all.

In Venezuela my Mission President had a maid. But what is funny, is that we still think that a Mission Presidents wife just sits around doing nothing. They are working 24/7 just like the President.

Back to the Tithin issue, maybe we can close this thread? There is an overwhelming mutual feeling that once we give, we have no say in the matter. We need to let go. The Judgement any leader will get from God for knowlingly spending Tithes wrong is much worse than any of us can conjur up I'm sure.

I once gave a window mount AC unit to my brother in law, he just got married, had a newborn and no AC. About a week after I gave it to him, they moved into an apartment with AC. What did he do with the AC unit? Obiously he wasnt using it. M ind you, at this time, I didnt have the money to just go out and buy this for him. I gave it from my heart. So I have been bitter until giving and receiving advice in threads like this one. It doesnt matter what he did with it, I gave it away.

but would you continue to give if he kept doing that? would you be upset if you gave your money for new shoes for the kids and he bought an IPod or something instead? I would never give him mone again.most of tithe payers expect the money to go to upkeep of buildings, humanitarian projects and wouldn't like their hard earned money to go towards lining GA's pockets.

You can work hard and clean your own house. giving them a maid is unecessay, imo.

[gem2477]

You can open the books, let inspectors roam the administration offices, you can let them have access to all the bank account, you can let them sit in on all meetings where finances are discussed, but you will never satisfy those who question how the church spends it's tithing moneys. They will always find some type of scandalous, opaque, hidden, frivolous, wasteful, unwise, or a whole host of how they disapprove how the money is used.

They will never be satisfied so the only answer that needs to be given is the money is used how the church deems necessary under the guidance of the Lord. Any explanation above that is a waste of energy.

just because a few people may not be satisfied doesn't mean the info shouldn't be put out. no one would have major problems if everything is legal.

[Just_A_Guy]

You miss my point completely...the church is not forthcoming with financial info. Given that, my point is that no one knows except higher ups/ workers at the COB.Let me turn it around, what evidence do you have that it is managed properly?

Only the evidence that I have from God Himself that the people at the top of the hierarchy really are divinely authorized stewards, as well as being thoroughly decent and honorable people to boot. And also, the evidence I have from God Himself that the Doctrine and Covenants, including Section 120, constitutes the word and will of the Lord for His Church at this point in time.

And frankly--if *you* don't have that kind of evidence for yourself, then I am completely befuddled as to why you would be paying tithing in the first place.

just because a few people may not be satisfied doesn't mean the info shouldn't be put out. no one would have major problems if everything is legal.

"You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide", eh? An interesting statement indeed to make in an anonymous forum.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

Thread is closed.