OT tithing verses NT giving

[Finrock]

We are sanctified through suffering. We ought not to be afraid to sacrifice because we may suffer. The point of the gospel is not necessarily to make it "easier" for people to obey. The point is to obey regardless of personal cost. That is God's way. It has always been His way. We must be willing to surrender everything, no matter the personal cost, for God's sake. The martyrs in the ancient Christian Church understood the principle of suffering well and sealed there testimony with their lives and blood. They did not fear the world, its inhabitants, or what the world could or did do to them.

Tithing teaches us that we need to trust in God and be willing to submit to His will even when submitting doesn't make logical or rational sense insofar as us humans are able to reason.

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

LDS World: 'Iffy' blessings and paying tithing | Deseret News

This article talks about a woman who was in need of employment but was having difficulty finding it. It mentions that she was not a full tithe payer. The article does not go into her financial details, but since she is looking for employment, that seems to indicate to me that she is unemployed. Why would she be required to pay tithe when she seems to be unemployed? Isn't tithing to come from a member's interest or income?

M.

I would assume Maureen others would have a similar thought pertaining to the LDS perspective regarding payment of tithing when it appears paying tithing would actually harm the giver more than help them.

Tithing is a 10% payment upon our annual increase, or annual income. If I were to make one dollar in a given year, then at the end of the year I should have paid $.10 cents.

As recently having been unemployed, I worked for a friend and made some additional money. Although, it wasn't much, and my bills far exceeded the earned income, I am still responsible before the Lord, due to my baptismal and temple covenants to keep his commandments, thus I am still obligated to pay what I agreed to pay to the Lord no matter my circumstance.

One reason, and a simple reason, is found when we read Abraham 3:25, "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;"

Our individual circumstances do not allow or provide us with the opportunity to say, "well at this time, this commandment is unnecessary, thus I won't keep it."

Upon reading the article, I think it also important to note, even if she was a full tithe payer she may still be in the same position looking for a job. The article is short sited to assume the reason why she didn't receive the blessing is because she wasn't a full tithe payer.

[Maureen]

...Our individual circumstances do not allow or provide us with the opportunity to say, "well at this time, this commandment is unnecessary, thus I won't keep it."

But, if tithing is defined as 10% of a member's income and if a person's circumstances make them unemployed, giving them no income, how would it be possible for that person to keep the commandment of giving 10% of something they do not have. anatess's example is confusing to me because it gives the impression that it's just the formality of going through tithing settlement, even if you've paid no tithing that would make a person a full tithe payer.

Upon reading the article, I think it also important to note, even if she was a full tithe payer she may still be in the same position looking for a job. The article is short sited to assume the reason why she didn't receive the blessing is because she wasn't a full tithe payer.

I found the article confusing, since I look at employment and tithing as linked. If you don't have one it would be difficult to do the other. That's how I see it.

M.

[Maureen]

We are sanctified through suffering. We ought not to be afraid to sacrifice because we may suffer. The point of the gospel is not necessarily to make it "easier" for people to obey. The point is to obey regardless of personal cost. That is God's way. It has always been His way. We must be willing to surrender everything, no matter the personal cost, for God's sake. The martyrs in the ancient Christian Church understood the principle of suffering well and sealed there testimony with their lives and blood. They did not fear the world, its inhabitants, or what the world could or did do to them.

Tithing teaches us that we need to trust in God and be willing to submit to His will even when submitting doesn't make logical or rational sense insofar as us humans are able to reason.

Finrock, do you also believe that you (mankind) exist, so that you might have joy? With all the suffering you are expected to do, when do you get to experience the joy?

M.

[Maureen]

Didn't read the article, but there's a 3rd possibility:

3) She had no income and was required to pay $0 tithing. Even if your tithe is $0, you are still required to tithe... as in, you get to settle with the Bishop once a year to answer the question, Are you a full tithe payer? If you say No, then you're not. Even if your tithe is $0.

...

If she has no income, paid no tithing, went to the tithing settlement and she said she was a full tithe payer, then would that mean she is?

M.

[Anddenex]

But, if tithing is defined as 10% of a member's income and if a person's circumstances make them unemployed, giving them no income, how would it be possible for that person to keep the commandment of giving 10% of something they do not have.

Excellent question. In the Holy Bible we are commanded to "multiply and replenish the earth." This commandment is from God. A twelve year old boy and girl are fully capable genetically to multiply and replenish the earth. Does this mean they are breaking this commandment if they do not multiply and replenish the earth when they are twelve? No.

The commandment is conditioned upon marriage. Once a person is married, now they are bound by this commandment. What about marriage partners who are unable to have children. The commandment is bound upon individuals who are in a position to have children, not those who are not as well.

Some commandments are conditioned upon other circumstances. Tithing is one of these commandments. We are held accountable before God when we have the opportunity to keep the commandment. If unemployed, but I go and work for a friend for a few days and he gives me money for my work; I am now obligated according to the covenant I have made to pay tithing. If I haven't earned any income, then I have not met the condition to be obligated to pay.

Anatess's example is confusing to me because it gives the impression that it's just the formality of going through tithing settlement, even if you've paid no tithing that would make a person a full tithe payer.

Tithing settlement is both a formality and a declaration. When a person meets with their bishop during tithing settlement they make a honest declaration before a "judge in Israel" as to whether or not they are full tithe payers -- blessing -- the ability to enter into the Lord's house. Even if we have not made any income, we are able to declare a full tithe, because what is 10% of 0$ income? $0; thus, I am a full tithe payer. This is the just of Anatess's comment.

It is the declaration of an honest heart that is most important in these tithing settlements.

I found the article confusing, since I look at employment and tithing as linked. If you don't have one it would be difficult to do the other. That's how I see it.

M.

They are linked, as well as unemployment and tithing are linked also.

[jerome1232]

But, if tithing is defined as 10% of a member's income and if a person's circumstances make them unemployed, giving them no income, how would it be possible for that person to keep the commandment of giving 10% of something they do not have. anatess's example is confusing to me because it gives the impression that it's just the formality of going through tithing settlement, even if you've paid no tithing that would make a person a full tithe payer.

I found the article confusing, since I look at employment and tithing as linked. If you don't have one it would be difficult to do the other. That's how I see it.

M.

This is really simple. What is 10% of zero? It is zero, if you paid zero than you have paid your 10% making you a full tithe payer.

[Guest]

If she has no income, paid no tithing, went to the tithing settlement and she said she was a full tithe payer, then would that mean she is?

M.

Yep. This happens all the time actually... for example: Stay at home mothers whose husbands are not members of the church and do not agree to pay tithes.

And here's another mind-bend. She had income, she determined in all honesty and sincerity after gaining a testimony about tithing in addition to prayer and inspiration from the Holy Ghost that her increase is 0, so she paid $0 tithes, went to tithing settlement and was asked the question, "Are you a full tithe payer", and she answered "Yes" with a clean conscience.... she's a full tithe payer, the circumstances of how that happened is between her and the Lord. The bishop is not going to ask her to show her tax forms.

Edited September 17, 2013 by anatess

[mordorbund]

But, if tithing is defined as 10% of a member's income and if a person's circumstances make them unemployed, giving them no income, how would it be possible for that person to keep the commandment of giving 10% of something they do not have. anatess's example is confusing to me because it gives the impression that it's just the formality of going through tithing settlement, even if you've paid no tithing that would make a person a full tithe payer.

I found the article confusing, since I look at employment and tithing as linked. If you don't have one it would be difficult to do the other. That's how I see it.

M.

I think Dravin's answer is a better one for clarity and fits better with the context of the article. The article articulates that the friend hadn't received a job because she hadn't paid "a full and honest tithe". If it was a simple matter of declaring her status to the bishop, then that would mean that she skipped out on tithing settlement last Nov/Dec, and was thus encouraged to meet with him right away. Instead we find that she is told "the need to pay a full tithing", which tends to suggest that she has been spotty in her payment (perhaps paid before but stopped when the regular employment stopped, or else she sometimes pays and sometimes doesn't).

As Dravin says:

Two possibilities that come to mind:

1) She had regular income though was underemployed and was not paying tithing.

2) She had irregular income and was not paying tithing.

[Finrock]

Good morning Maureen. I hope you are doing well! :)

Finrock, do you also believe that you (mankind) exist, so that you might have joy? With all the suffering you are expected to do, when do you get to experience the joy?

M.

In between the suffering and even during the suffering. Its a matter of understanding who you are and what you are really doing here on this earth. It is a matter of having the Spirit with you. It is a matter of understanding that this earth life is a temporary condition and we are really just strangers on this earth. God blesses us when we suffer for His sake. As we cry on to God in our suffering and place our faith wholly in Him, He will make our suffering turn out for our good. He will lift our burdens and make them light. We can find joy in suffering for Jesus.

Our suffering, if we suffer well (with faith, with gratitude), is the catalyst that causes us to put our trust completely in God. Our faith and resolve are tested through suffering. We become better men and women through our trials.

Tithing is a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things and this is from someone who was living off 18K a year with three children at one point and still paid my tithing faithfully. We can't ever allow ourselves to forget that God has given us all that we have. It is His. Tithing helps us to remember that.

On the flipside, if we don't exercise faith and if we allow our suffering to overcome us then suffering will be miserable and discouraging. If we don't know who we truly are and if we don't fully recognize why we are here, then suffering can seem like it is something to avoid at all costs.

EDIT: I wanted to add a quote from Brigham Young:

We have passed through a great many scenes, we may say, of tribulation, though I would have all my brethren understand that I do not take this to myself, for all that I have passed through has been joy and joyful to me; but we have seemingly sacrificed a great deal, and passed through many scenes of trial and temptations, no doubt of this. We have had to suffer temptations, more or less, and we have taken the spoiling of our goods joyfully. I have, myself, five times before I came to this valley, left everything that the Lord had blessed me with pertaining to this world’s goods, which, for the country where I lived, was not a very little (DBY, 347–48).

As to trials, why bless your hearts, the man or woman who enjoys the spirit of our religion has no trials; but the man or woman who tries to live according to the Gospel of the Son of God, and at the same time clings to the spirit of the world, has trials and sorrows acute and keen, and that, too, continually (DBY, 348).

Cast off the yoke of the enemy, and put on the yoke of Christ, and you will say that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. This I know by experience.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited September 17, 2013 by Finrock

[mnn727]

Why do LDS tithe 10% rather than what they feel like? That's easy:

Revelation given to Joseph Smith July 8, 1838

Doctrine and Covenants 119: 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

[Maureen]

Why do LDS tithe 10% rather than what they feel like? That's easy:

Revelation given to Joseph Smith July 8, 1838

That scripture has been mentioned in this thread. Do you think mnn727 that since the LDS church believes in continuing revelation that this doctrine could change to a type of "giving" with no stipulation on amount but more along the lines of what's mentioned in the NT?

M.

[Leah]

That scripture has been mentioned in this thread. Do you think mnn727 that since the LDS church believes in continuing revelation that this doctrine could change to a type of "giving" with no stipulation on amount but more along the lines of what's mentioned in the NT?

M.

I believe Joseph Smith received this revelation AFTER the time of the New Testament, no? I mean, since that's when he was alive. So if you are pushing for more "current" modes by pushing the NT over the OT, wouldn't Joseph Smith's time be even more current?

And did you miss the part about how "and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord".

To use your own argument for more "current" practice, I would say this revelation is definitely more current than the NT and "a standing law unto them forever" is pretty clear.

[beefche]

That scripture has been mentioned in this thread. Do you think mnn727 that since the LDS church believes in continuing revelation that this doctrine could change to a type of "giving" with no stipulation on amount but more along the lines of what's mentioned in the NT?

M.

Personally speaking, no. I think Leah explained it when she said that JS lived after the NT and received this revelation.

Further, those who are endowed in the temple make covenants to give ALL they have. Although the endowed members are not required to actually hand over their paychecks, they covenant to be willing to do so if the Lord required. So, honestly, if the law were to change, I think it would change to require more than 10%. Obviously, the Lord's people aren't prepared to offer more than 10% (since not all members pay a full tithe) so I doubt that He would require more from them at this time (unless they receive their endowments where they make covenants to give all).

[Just_A_Guy]

Further, those who are endowed in the temple make covenants to give ALL they have. Although the endowed members are not required to actually hand over their paychecks, they covenant to be willing to do so if the Lord required. So, honestly, if the law were to change, I think it would change to require more than 10%.

Amen.

[Maureen]

I believe Joseph Smith received this revelation AFTER the time of the New Testament, no? I mean, since that's when he was alive. So if you are pushing for more "current" modes by pushing the NT over the OT, wouldn't Joseph Smith's time be even more current?

Joseph seemed to incorporate some of the church's practices and beliefs based on OT practices. Prophets are another example from the OT.

And did you miss the part about how "and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord".

To use your own argument for more "current" practice, I would say this revelation is definitely more current than the NT and "a standing law unto them forever" is pretty clear.

The LDS church has continuing revelation, practices can change. The introductory statement for D&C 119 says this:

The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

And as you can see from the revelation not only were the members to give their annual tithe of 10% but also their surplus property:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people.

4And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

In the 19th century when a person became a member of the church, they were to pay a tithe at conversion and also their annual tithe. The surplus property or conversion tithe is no longer required, inspite of the revelation's mention of forever. If I were to predict what could happen with tithing in the future based on what's happened in the past, I would think tithing could be changed to be even easier for members to follow.

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

In the 19th century when a person became a member of the church, they were to pay a tithe at conversion and also their annual tithe.

I understand the textual basis for this reading; but I've never really followed up on the degree to which it was ever applied. If you have some additional background I'd be very interested to see it. :)

If I were to predict what could happen with tithing in the future based on what's happened in the past, I would think tithing could be changed to be even easier for members to follow.

M.

To what point and purpose? Mormonism isn't supposed to be about "easy".

[Dravin]

To what point and purpose? Mormonism isn't supposed to be about "easy".

A relevant quote:

7. Let us here observe that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation. For from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It is through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life. And it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God.

Link: Lectures on Faith - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

[Guest]

Could it go to 5% or 2% or 1%? Of course it could. Highly unlikely, but it could. Basically, if the First Presidency would announce in the next General Conference that God revealed tithing is now 1% of increase it wouldn't cause Mormons to leave the Church in droves because of doctrinal inconsistencies.

[bytebear]

I think one part is important to note. You quoted this, but I will highlight some things differently

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people.

4And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Now that the church is established, and the foundation has been laid, the need for "all their surplus property" is no longer required. It was a temporary requirement until the church became established. Then the law of tithing as the "standing law until them forever" kicked in.

Edited September 19, 2013 by bytebear

[Maureen]

I understand the textual basis for this reading; but I've never really followed up on the degree to which it was ever applied. If you have some additional background I'd be very interested to see it. :)

LDS Church Finances from the 1830s to the 1990s by D. Michael Quinn

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/102-17-29.pdf

To what point and purpose? Mormonism isn't supposed to be about "easy".

beefche mentioned that if there were to be a change in tithing, she believes it would increase instead of get easier. From what I've read about tithing in the 19th century, the members had it rough compared to members now; so based on that, I think if tithing were to change it would become easier for members to give.

M.

[Latter Days Guy]

Found an interesting BLOG post about tithing and thought I would share it here, makes for some interesting reading!

[Just_A_Guy]

beefche mentioned that if there were to be a change in tithing, she believes it would increase instead of get easier. From what I've read about tithing in the 19th century, the members had it rough compared to members now; so based on that, I think if tithing were to change it would become easier for members to give.

M.

I'm not so sure. The requirement was stricter, but per your article seems to have been pretty toothless (I mean, the total number of tithe payers flirts between 15 and 25% of Church membership at the time, and you have apostles theoretically subject to tithing, but not doing it, as late as 1900).

Moreover, the trend hasn't been a universal and inexorable loosening--I was frankly flummoxed to see that prior to the 1838 revelation, "tithing" was deemed to be two percent.

[mnn727]

That scripture has been mentioned in this thread. Do you think mnn727 that since the LDS church believes in continuing revelation that this doctrine could change to a type of "giving" with no stipulation on amount but more along the lines of what's mentioned in the NT?

M.

Do I think it COULD happen? Yes

Do I think it WILL happen? probably not - the Church continues to grow increasing the need for more: Ward buildings, Temples, teaching materials, things pertaining to missions(apartments,cars, etc), as building age they need more maintenance and eventually remodeling. There also are some paid employee's in the Church that will increase as the Church grows: Security, building staff, institute teachers, secretaries, etc.

[mnn727]

Joseph seemed to incorporate some of the church's practices and beliefs based on OT practices. Prophets are another example from the OT.

So the question is: Is this Gods Church or Josephs Church? Did Joseph Smith make the whole thing up or did he receive revelation from God.

If you believe Joseph made it up, then why bother? sleep in Sundays or find another Church.

However if you believe God revealed and still reveals things to His Prophets today, I'd be tithing a full 10% and giving a generous fast offering too.