God and Suffering

[Finrock]

After Jesus is betrayed Peter rises up and chops off the ear of the servant of the high priest who was part of the group to arrest Jesus. In response to this:

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Simple question. What is the cup that the Father has given the Son? What would happen if Jesus did not drink the cup given by His Father?

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

This is the cup that Jesus did drink. This is the cup that the Father has given Him

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

It was the Father's will that Jesus suffered. In my view, there is no denying this.

The Father means for us to suffer. He wants us to suffer in mortality because our suffering in mortality is really just a lesson on faith. When seen through the eyes of faith, suffering is but a blessing. This is so because Jesus Christ suffered and went beneath all things. Seen from an eternal view our suffering in mortality is but a type and a shadow of the suffering endured by Christ. And yet, if we endure our meager trials and sufferings in faith, as Jesus suffered all things in perfect faith, then through the Atonement of Jesus Christ our small sacrifice will be made great, even as great as the Son's.

-Finrock

[Anddenex]

Thank you for the thoughts Finrock. My only question regarding your last paragraph, "The Father means for us to suffer," then why do others suffer more than others? Some seem to appear to have a meager suffering in this life, while others seem to suffer greatly.

[Finrock]

Good evening Anddenex. I hope you are well! :)

Thank you for the thoughts Finrock.

You're welcome.

My only question regarding your last paragraph, "The Father means for us to suffer," then why do others suffer more than others? Some seem to appear to have a meager suffering in this life, while others seem to suffer greatly.

That's the thing. If we compare our suffering with other people then we seem to see a difference. However, we must compare our suffering with that of the Savior. In comparison, our suffering in mortality is meager, no matter the suffering. We must look to the Savior.

When we realize that our suffering has been overcome by the Savior then we can have joy in our suffering. Our trials will be but opportunities for us to grow. They won't seem to us as burdens. They will be light. We won't count them as suffering, but rather as blessings.

When we are in the midst of our worst suffering we are in the midst of working out our greatest blessings if we can but see it with an eye of faith and endure well. God has promised He will overcome our burdens for us if we put our trust in Him. He will make the burden seem light to us. This isn't figurative. It is real. He makes our suffering come out for our good. He means them for our good. It is all meant to save us. He is working to shape us and make us perfect. This life is the time for this to happen and we have the experiences we have so that we can learn to have faith; a faith which leads to knowledge.

-Finrock

[applepansy]

This scripture came to mind when I read your post.

Doctrine and Covenants 122:7

And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

[Seminarysnoozer]

After Jesus is betrayed Peter rises up and chops off the ear of the servant of the high priest who was part of the group to arrest Jesus. In response to this:

Simple question. What is the cup that the Father has given the Son? What would happen if Jesus did not drink the cup given by His Father?

This is the cup that Jesus did drink. This is the cup that the Father has given Him

It was the Father's will that Jesus suffered. In my view, there is no denying this.

The Father means for us to suffer. He wants us to suffer in mortality because our suffering in mortality is really just a lesson on faith. When seen through the eyes of faith, suffering is but a blessing. This is so because Jesus Christ suffered and went beneath all things. Seen from an eternal view our suffering in mortality is but a type and a shadow of the suffering endured by Christ. And yet, if we endure our meager trials and sufferings in faith, as Jesus suffered all things in perfect faith, then through the Atonement of Jesus Christ our small sacrifice will be made great, even as great as the Son's.

-Finrock

Not everyone has to suffer; D&C; " 26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face.

27 And in that day awhatsoever any man shall ask, it shall be given unto him.

28 And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man.

29 And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death.

30 In that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree;

31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be bcaught up, and his rest shall be glorious."

Suffering isn't a necessary step for all, just for some (probably majority).

[Feta]

Why did Jesus have to suffer at all?

To me, it seems more logical that everyone should suffer for their own sins. I don't see the need for a savior.

I'm sure there's a logical explanation-- I just can't think of it.

[mdfxdb]

Not sure I agree with the premise that we need to suffer. 2 Nephi 2:25-27

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the elaw at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself.

If man is that he might have joy then why would God want us to suffer in mortality?

How can he create us to be joyful, but then force us to suffer? Might it be better to say that suffering is brought on by the individual most of the time? Sometimes suffereing is used by God to see what we will do? 1 Peter 1:6-7

However, I do not believe God is so interested in me that he goes out of his way to put up obstacles in my life. I do that enough on my own. I do believe he is interested in how I deal with those obstacles though.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Sounds like another interpretation of original sin.

I believe God as better things to do than to personally orchestrate misery for individuals as a test.

We test ourselves.

[Guest]

Why did Jesus have to suffer at all?

To me, it seems more logical that everyone should suffer for their own sins. I don't see the need for a savior.

I'm sure there's a logical explanation-- I just can't think of it.

Feta, you need to study Justice and Mercy.

[Guest]

Sounds like another interpretation of original sin.

I believe God as better things to do than to personally orchestrate misery for individuals as a test.

We test ourselves.

I completely agree with this.

Finrock, Jesus has to suffer because it is the Atonement for our sins. Had he not suffered, he wouldn't have fulfilled the atonement, and we would have been left without the means to go back to our Heavenly Father.

People may be born and die in a second without a wiff of suffering. They are still saved through the Atonement... BECAUSE Jesus Christ suffered.

People suffer not because it is a requirement for salvation but simply as a consequence of the gift of free will. Our mortality establishes opposition that we may ACT and be ACTED UPON.

[Lakumi]

I donno, for me, the suffering in my life severely decreased my faith from what it was when I was a kid.

I always wondered if God wanted me to be faithful and such, why he'd let what befell me to happen- knowing what would happen.

Or at very least gave me a mind that questions everything that it is told

[Feta]

Feta, you need to study Justice and Mercy.

Thanks for the link. I have a few questions about it.

1) Packer says, "Each of us lives on a kind of spiritual credit." What is that spiritual credit? What have we received on credit?

2) Why is mercy necessary? Packer says,

"Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice untempered, unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full recompense for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing."

I don't see the problem with that. If Jesus could take the full punishment for the sins of every person who has or will ever live, surely we can take the full punishment for our own individual sins.

I'm just not seeing the requirement for the mediator. Jesus suffered for all of our sins in a matter of hours, and then it was over.

When we die, why can't our loving father just spend a couple hours delivering whatever horrible punishment he sees fit, and then move on?

I'm sure I seem incredibly dense to you, but please enlighten me!

Edited November 15, 2013 by Feta

[estradling75]

Because the Justice of God is that no unclean thing (sinner aka every one of us) can be in his kingdom. Thus by the demands of Justice every one of us is to be cast off forever. It is infinite and eternal punishment and we can never pay the demands because of that.

Christ was perfect and sinless. Justice had no claim on him. He is God and his atonement was infinite and eternal (even if it only took him a few hours to do it). Thus he can meet the demands of Justice and offer us Mercy.

If we take Christ's offer then we get Mercy and his atonement covers paying what Justice is due from us. If we don't take Christ's offer then Justice claims us and we considered in Hell. This state lasts until we accept Christ and when we do then Mercy and the Atonement take over. This going to Hell and then being redeemed is sometimes called "Paying for your own sins," but that is a misnomer. A person doesn't even scratch the surface of the debt they owe while in Hell. Those that don't ever accept Christ are known as Sons of Perdition and join the Devil and his angels in the grip of Justice.

[Guest]

Thanks for the link. I have a few questions about it.

1) Packer says, "Each of us lives on a kind of spiritual credit." What is that spiritual credit? What have we received on credit?

2) Why is mercy necessary? Packer says,

"Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice untempered, unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full recompense for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing."

I don't see the problem with that. If Jesus could take the full punishment for the sins of every person who has or will ever live, surely we can take the full punishment for our own individual sins.

I'm just not seeing the requirement for the mediator. Jesus suffered for all of our sins in a matter of hours, and then it was over.

When we die, why can't our loving father just spend a couple hours delivering whatever horrible punishment he sees fit, and then move on?

I'm sure I seem incredibly dense to you, but please enlighten me!

I'll answer both these questions together.

Remember the Plan of Salvation - we were all in pre-mortal existence deciding if we would accept the plan that will enable our spirits to progress - gain more knowledge so we may have all the knowledge that God has.

We were presented with the dilemma: We, as pre-mortal spirits, cannot advance in learning unless we are able to exercise our free agency and make certain choices according to our nature. We cannot exercise our free agency with the Heavenly Father because He is perfect and therefore, we cannot experience opposition. It was then necessary to separate ourselves from His presence to gain opposition.

But, separating ourselves from His presence is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Redeeming ourselves from Spiritual Death to come back to our Heavenly Father requires SPIRITUAL PERFECTION. That is the demand of Justice. But, it is impossible to gain Spiritual Perfection when we have to exercise our free agency when we don't have perfect knowledge. For every sin we comit in our learning probation, Justice demands that we get farther and farther from God and must then suffer for it. And it is a surety that we will sin - because we do not have perfect knowledge. Therefore, NONE OF US, would have been able to go back to the Father after our probation because none of us would have attained Spiritual Perfection.

But, God is Merciful. He loves us such that he cannot allow us to be lost forever as we fumble through sinful choices on our way to gaining knowledge. But, if His Mercy robs Justice by making it such that we don't have to be Spiritually Perfect to go back to Heavenly Father, then God ceases to be Perfect.... because, remember, the plan is for us to be Gods, so, if there is no need to be Spiritually Perfect to become God, then God is not Perfect.

Okay, so, surely there needs to be a Mediator or Savior that will PAY the price of our Spiritual Death and our poor choices that we make through our ignorance as we fumble through life on our way to gaining knowledge. This mediator NEEDS to be SPIRITUALLY PERFECT because that is the PRICE that Justice demands to pay for Spiritual Death.

So then God asks the question... "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Jesus Christ answered, "Here I am, send me. Father, Thy will be done, and glory be thine forever." (Abraham 3:27, Moses 4:2). But Lucifer also answered, "Behold, here am I, send me. Surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." (Moses 4:1).

Now, as Jesus Christ gives the glory and honor to the Father, he remained perfect, whereas, Lucifer demanded that the Father give him the glory and honor - which made him imperfect. So, Jesus was the only one qualified to be the Savior.

Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior and we, as pre-mortal spirits, shouted for joy! (Job 38:7). We found a way to gain knowledge through Spiritual Death, and still be able to come back to the Father through Jesus Christ's Spiritual Perfection. So that, all that we will be judged is our own specific choices that we make WITH KNOWLEDGE in our own specific challenges/opposition while we are separate from the Father. Also, as Jesus Christ was chosen to be the Savior, He also became responsible for teaching us all that we need to make better choices. Therefore, everyone received the gift of the Light of Christ (conscience).

Does that make better sense?

Edited November 15, 2013 by anatess

[Feta]

Because the Justice of God is that no unclean thing (sinner aka every one of us) can be in his kingdom. Thus by the demands of Justice every one of us is to be cast off forever. It is infinite and eternal punishment and we can never pay the demands because of that.

Christ was perfect and sinless. Justice had no claim on him. He is God and his atonement was infinite and eternal (even if it only took him a few hours to do it). Thus he can meet the demands of Justice and offer us Mercy.

If we take Christ's offer then we get Mercy and his atonement covers paying what Justice is due from us. If we don't take Christ's offer then Justice claims us and we considered in Hell. This state lasts until we accept Christ and when we do then Mercy and the Atonement take over. This going to Hell and then being redeemed is sometimes called "Paying for your own sins," but that is a misnomer. A person doesn't even scratch the surface of the debt they owe while in Hell. Those that don't ever accept Christ are known as Sons of Perdition and join the Devil and his angels in the grip of Justice.

Through the atonement, we can assume suffering is an established method of redemption for sin. However, are you saying that's not a valid method for us to become clean, because we are imperfect, and only a perfect, sinless person and suffer for our sins?

If Jesus was able to meet the demands of justice through suffering, why can't we?

If Jesus was unable to fulfill his role as our savior, would God have lost every one of his children by casting us off forever?

[estradling75]

Through the atonement, we can assume suffering is an established method of redemption for sin. However, are you saying that's not a valid method for us to become clean, because we are imperfect, and only a perfect, sinless person and suffer for our sins?

Incorrect assumption... Suffering is not the method for redemption from sin. God's mercy through his Son is.

If Jesus was able to meet the demands of justice through suffering, why can't we?

Jesus fulfilled his role in the plan that required him to suffer to perform the atonement.

If Jesus was unable to fulfill his role as our savior, would God have lost every one of his children by casting us off forever?

Theoretical question: Assumes that the Plans of God can fail. Underlying assumption rejected.

[james12]

Through the atonement, we can assume suffering is an established method of redemption for sin. However, are you saying that's not a valid method for us to become clean, because we are imperfect, and only a perfect, sinless person and suffer for our sins?

If Jesus was able to meet the demands of justice through suffering, why can't we?

If Jesus was unable to fulfill his role as our savior, would God have lost every one of his children by casting us off forever?

Suffering has never and will never "pay" for sin. Not my suffering, not your suffering, not Christ's suffering.

Suffering is simply the consequence, the result, (some might say price but this leads to incorrect thinking) of sin. Because we do not obey eternal law we suffer and others suffer. But there is not a given amount of suffering for sin. One cannot suffer 10 pain units to free themselves from sin. If this were possible, we could simply suffer our way to eternal life. Oh it might take a long time, but what is time to eternal beings? But such is not so, it is against eternal law.

Also, suffering of another does not absolve the offender of sin. If this were so then my brother could commit murder, I could suffer for it, and he could be let go. But this is clearly not right. If this happened we would all cry "unfair" "unjust". As Amulek testifies, "Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered" (Alma 34:11-12)*.

If all that I have said makes sense then I ask you this question. How does Christ redeem you or me if it is not through transfer of punishment?

Some might tell me that a man can't suffer for another but Christ can. This is false. Amulek is pointing to an eternal law that does not change.

[Feta]

Suffering has never and will never "pay" for sin. Not my suffering, not your suffering, not Christ's suffering.

Suffering is simply the consequence, the result, (some might say price but this leads to incorrect thinking) of sin. Because we do not obey eternal law we suffer and others suffer. But there is not a given amount of suffering for sin. One cannot suffer 10 pain units to free themselves from sin. If this were possible, we could simply suffer our way to eternal life. Oh it might take a long time, but what is time to eternal beings? But such is not so, it is against eternal law.

Also, suffering of another does not absolve the offender of sin. If this were so then my brother could commit murder, I could suffer for it, and he could be let go. But this is clearly not right. If this happened we would all cry "unfair" "unjust". As Amulek testifies, "Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered" (Alma 34:11-12)*.

If all that I have said makes sense then I ask you this question. How does Christ redeem you or me if it is not through transfer of punishment?

Some might tell me that a man can't suffer for another but Christ can. This is false. Amulek is pointing to an eternal law that does not change.

OK. I'm feeling a little dumb because I'm not understanding this. If what Amulek said is true, why did Christ suffer?

Packer's parable about the debtor, creditor and arbitrator implies that Christ is paying God for our sins with his suffering. He says we are living on spiritual credit. The only way I and think to reconcile Packer and Amulek is to say that Christ is the exception. He is the only one that can pay off God and become our new creditor. If, as you say, Christ did not "pay" for our sins, then how was God appeased? How was justice fulfilled?

[Seminarysnoozer]

OK. I'm feeling a little dumb because I'm not understanding this. If what Amulek said is true, why did Christ suffer?

Packer's parable about the debtor, creditor and arbitrator implies that Christ is paying God for our sins with his suffering. He says we are living on spiritual credit. The only way I and think to reconcile Packer and Amulek is to say that Christ is the exception. He is the only one that can pay off God and become our new creditor. If, as you say, Christ did not "pay" for our sins, then how was God appeased? How was justice fulfilled?

If it was paid in full then that would take away any chance for mercy. The plan of having a Savior allows for both justice and mercy together without it having to be one or the other alone.

I think there is an underlying concept that is hard for many to swallow nowadays and that is the idea that dependency is good and being independent is not as good. Depending on the Lord is a good thing. The plan was never to absolve ourselves of all debt and be beholden to nobody.

The reason we have advanced as a society in this world, even, is because we "owe" the luxuries of this world to all those that have come before us. If we all had to start by pounding rocks together and couldn't take from past generations we would not have the blessings we have now ... we wouldn't even be talking with each other. The same applies in the next world, one helps another to advance and by doing so receives joy and happiness, happiness is magnified.

Fighting the idea of depending on a Savior is part of the test that reveals one would not feel comfortable in a Celestial environment. That, in part, is why we face this test of faith, which requires temptation (suffering) and a Savior to turn to.

[mnn727]

Our Heavenly Father, who gives us so much to delight in, also knows that we learn and grow and become stronger as we face and survive the trials through which we must pass. We know that there are times when we will experience heartbreaking sorrow, when we will grieve, and when we may be tested to our limits. However, such difficulties allow us to change for the better, to rebuild our lives in the way our Heavenly Father teaches us, and to become something different from what we were—better than we were, more understanding than we were, more empathetic than we were, with stronger testimonies than we had before.

This should be our purpose—to persevere and endure, yes, but also to become more spiritually refined as we make our way through sunshine and sorrow. Were it not for challenges to overcome and problems to solve, we would remain much as we are, with little or no progress toward our goal of eternal life.

“I Will Not Fail Thee, nor Forsake Thee†- general-conference

[james12]

OK. I'm feeling a little dumb because I'm not understanding this. If what Amulek said is true, why did Christ suffer?

Packer's parable about the debtor, creditor and arbitrator implies that Christ is paying God for our sins with his suffering. He says we are living on spiritual credit. The only way I and think to reconcile Packer and Amulek is to say that Christ is the exception. He is the only one that can pay off God and become our new creditor. If, as you say, Christ did not "pay" for our sins, then how was God appeased? How was justice fulfilled?

You know the more I learn the more I think good questions with a desire to understand are at the heart of progression. Your question, "How was justice fulfilled?" is a good question. I think it strikes at the heart of the term justice.

So, what does God's justice require? I submit that God's justice requires that a person gets what they deserve. In other words if a person sins he deserves punishment but if he reforms he no longer deserves punishment. (This may sound obvious and simple but it is actually a rather radical statement.) Thus punishment is not transferred, there is no left over punishment. Suffering ends when a person changes, or in the gospel sense, when he repents. Thus mercy overpowers justice on condition of repentance (Alma 34:15). But if the person does not change then mercy is bound, it cannot rob justice, and justice has full sway (Alma 42:22). The end of punishment occurs when a person obeys God's law.

Why then the atonement? Why then did Christ suffer? Simply stated, so that he could be at one with us (John 17:11). So that he could be with us infinitely and eternally with us in our fallen, sinful state (Alma 34:12). When you go home tonight, he is with you. When you hurt, he hurts. When you find joy, so does he. Oneness is not mysticism as Elder Holland said, it is simply truth. The D&C says, "He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; which truth shineth (D&C 88:6-7) Thus the door is always open to change. the moment we desire to change we feel the Spirit prompting us forward.

[apexviper]

The Father means for us to suffer. He wants us to suffer in mortality because our suffering in mortality is really just a lesson on faith. When seen through the eyes of faith, suffering is but a blessing. This is so because Jesus Christ suffered and went beneath all things. Seen from an eternal view our suffering in mortality is but a type and a shadow of the suffering endured by Christ. And yet, if we endure our meager trials and sufferings in faith, as Jesus suffered all things in perfect faith, then through the Atonement of Jesus Christ our small sacrifice will be made great, even as great as the Son's.

-Finrock

Not entirely. Heavenly Father set up the plan of happiness, Satan has a plan of misery. Only Satan wants us to suffer. Let's break down trials in general. There are 3 kinds (genres). One group of trials are caused because we agreed to them in the premortal council. They were predetermined. The second group of trials are self-made. These are trials that are not from Heavenly Father but simply from our own choices. The third group comes from others, when other people make choices that negatively affect our own lives. Heavenly Father wants us to have trials so we can grow, not for us to suffer.

[yjacket]

I donno, for me, the suffering in my life severely decreased my faith from what it was when I was a kid.

I always wondered if God wanted me to be faithful and such, why he'd let what befell me to happen- knowing what would happen.

Or at very least gave me a mind that questions everything that it is told

I personally think that there is a culture or a mindset that is the prosperity gospel, i.e. I obey the commandments so good things happen, or the reason bad things happen is because I've sinned. And while that may be the case sometimes, many times it is not. I think this faulty idea can and does actually break people when crap happens to them.

I actually think we see this in the culture of the church a lot (not necessarily in the teachings, or doctrine, but in the culture). In fact, several commentators in this thread have alluded to the above, i.e. suffering comes from sin. If only it were so. The scriptures say if we obey the commandments we will "prosper" in the land. But what is "prospering", is it to have no suffering, is it to be financially well off, or is it to have peace of mind.

I'm not sure if it is an American culture issue or a world-wide issue, but there is an insidious desire to eliminate all suffering no matter the cost. However, to do so would eliminate life itself. Suffering is a part of life, it just is, there is nothing that you, me, or anyone in this world can do to eliminate it. Sometimes it is because of sin, and sometimes it is because crap happens.

The Atonement gives us the peace of mind that is essential during our sufferings. And while to us it looks like one man's sufferings is greater or less than another man's, we truly have no idea what that suffering is like to that individual. It cannot be for us to judge whether their suffering is less than ours. All must go through this life and no one gets out unscathed.

In my studies of the scriptures, some of the most powerful prophets and leaders were those who suffered greatly. It wasn't the act of suffering that made them powerful, it was the fact that through the suffering they learned to rely more heavily upon Christ, they learned that His Atonement covered much more than just repentance, it covers Everything. The plan of happiness, specifically includes the sufferings of this life; it is the peace of Mind that comes in knowing that no matter what happens, no matter the darts, the arrows, the pains that occur in this life, it will all be OK, that there is a God, that there is a Redeemer, that we can have Peace and Joy. Without the pain, the sorrow, the suffering, we can never know what it is like to have true Joy and Peace.

I think in many ways, it can be a problem in the culture of the church. People can equate suffering to sin, so those who are suffering instead of being able to lean upon individuals in the church for support, learn to keep it in and put on a "happy" face for church, yet inside they are being devastated. And while there is definitely a correlation between sin and suffering, the goal is to help others avoid the sin so that they can have that peace of mind and prosper in the land.

Edited November 16, 2013 by yjacket

[yjacket]

If Jesus was unable to fulfill his role as our savior, would God have lost every one of his children by casting us off forever?

I do not know what would have happened; if we would have all had to go through the pits of hell for millennium to be cleansed or what.

This much I do know, Christ was not a robot, He was human and He could have said No, even while He was on the earth. In fact, He pleaded with the Father to let the cup pass. If that doesn't tell you that He could have said No, then I don't know what will.

I think that is why Satan had such great pull in Heaven, to get 1/3 of the host of heaven with him. It had to take an incredible amount of Faith in God and in Jesus just to stay on the right side. Yeah, Christ could have failed . . . . which is what makes the Atonement so much more powerful.

It states in the scriptures that "Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God." or in other words God must act in a certain way or He would no longer be God. It requires faith that God will continue to be God and that is what makes Him God.

A good example of this (okay it's not that great, but all I can think of right now) is teaching a little kid math. What is 2 + 2?, the first couple of times they won't get it right, after the 10000 time, they will say 4. Could they say the answer is 3, sure they could, but they won't. Could God or Christ do something that would destroy the plan, sure they have Free Agency just like we do, but they won't because they have enough knowledge, training, practice to know what the consequences would be. And we have to have enough Faith that They know what They are doing that it won't fail.

[dahlia]

The Father means for us to suffer.

Wow. Do you really think so? I do not think HF wants his children to suffer. Unfortunately, they make all kinds of bad decisions, the result of which is suffering. In addition, we are not perfect bodies, accidents and disease cause suffering for many, but I do not think HF "means for us to suffer."

We can learn from suffering. We can think on Christ's suffering. We can become more sensitive to the suffering of others through our own suffering, but no, I do not think HF means for us to suffer.