God and Suffering

[yjacket]

Wow. Do you really think so? I do not think HF wants his children to suffer. Unfortunately, they make all kinds of bad decisions, the result of which is suffering. In addition, we are not perfect bodies, accidents and disease cause suffering for many, but I do not think HF "means for us to suffer."

We can learn from suffering. We can think on Christ's suffering. We can become more sensitive to the suffering of others through our own suffering, but no, I do not think HF means for us to suffer.

I think there is a difference between wants and is necessary. No parent "wants" to see there children struggle, however as a parent, I recognize the necessity at times for my children to specifically struggle and have sufferings.

In their struggle they learn self-reliance, they learn how to empathize, they learn how to ask for help. As a parent, I specifically find opportunities to help them grow and that means from time to time that I will ask them to do things that they will struggle with. They will have sufferings because of their struggles, they will disobey and be disciplined, they will fall and break something, they will experience the loss of a favorite toy, etc. Do I wish there was another way, sure I do, but I recognize that there isn't. The only way that my children can become good men and women is through this process. There is no other way.

This concept is not new nor is it out of line; the Church teaches this. Heavenly Father knows that if we are ever to become like He is then we will have to learn the things He has learned. We must go through this mortal life full of pain, sorrow, suffering, joy, happiness, pleasure if we are ever to become like Him. So no, our HF does not take joy in us suffering, but He recognizes that it is one of the necessary steps that we must travel through in this life to become like Him.

[Praetorian_Brow]

My father may want me to share some of his success and triumphs that he experienced, but I also know he wants me to an individual. Emulating your father is great, but emulation for the sake of emulating, produces a shell of an individual. I doubt God wants mindless drones as children.

My mother didn't intentionally scar me with her ring finger while I was a baby because she wanted to test my ability to overcome misery. As a child, I chose to run through gravel on pavement and shred my knee when I fell. I chose to jump and miss the farthest rung on the monkey bars.

Life is full of endless possibilities, but I do not accept the notion that we have been created to suffer. Some people need to rationalize their suffering as meaningful in a strange twist on positive thinking, but is wearing a horse hair shirt for penance, just as positive I wonder.

I think some people confuse abuse with coincidental misery.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

The courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

[yjacket]

There is a difference between saying we have been created to suffer and saying it is a necessary part of this life. We are created to have joy, just like a scripture says.

But we cannot have joy without learning what it is like to suffer. This isn't a very hard concept here.

I didn't say anything about abuse . . .

[justinc]

What is the cup that the Father has given the Son?

This is probably an allusion to the cup of God's wrath mentioned throughout the Hebrew scriptures. "The cup of suffering referred to in [Matthew] 20:22 clearly employs a common OT metaphor, frequently used for the outpouring of God's wrath (e.g., Ps. 75:8; Isa. 51:17)." (Craig L. Bloomberg, Commentary on the New Testament use of the Old Testament, p. 63) God's wrath being poured on Jesus was no doubt symbolic of the sacrificial lamb (John 1:29).

How Jesus actually received the wrath of God for the sins of others in any rational sense remains a mystery. It seems at least Paul understood Jesus as becoming sin and then suffering so that the sin itself would be condemned in the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:13; Romans 8:3).

What would happen if Jesus did not drink the cup given by His Father?

This second question probably wouldn't have made sense to the earliest Christians. To them God sent Jesus specifically (among other things) to deal with the problem of sin. We read that he was sent "for sin" (Romans 8:3) "to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15) "to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28) "not to do [his] own will, but the will of [God]" (John 6:38).

[Anddenex]

1) Packer says, "Each of us lives on a kind of spiritual credit." What is that spiritual credit? What have we received on credit?

In order to better understand the idea of spiritual credit a person must understand why "credit" is necessary. Why do people leverage credit? Credit is leveraged in order to hopefully obtain a desired outcome, goal, that an individual (at that time) could not obtain themselves without assistance.

Then our spiritual credit is a simple understanding that spiritually we were unable to accomplish or reach a desired outcome without the assistance from some outside source. This source was Jesus Christ -- a God. He provides the assistance, the additional means, by which we are now able to reach salvation.

2) Why is mercy necessary? Packer says,

"Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice untempered, unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full recompense for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing."

I don't see the problem with that. If Jesus could take the full punishment for the sins of every person who has or will ever live, surely we can take the full punishment for our own individual sins.

The error in this assumption is that you assume that people who reject the atonement, or simply decide they do not need one, do not bare the full measure of justice's punishment. We are informed in scripture that the atonement (mercy) spares us from the law of justice if we repent; if we do not repent then we have no promise and we are left to bare justice themselves; although, they pay the full measure of justice themselves they are still "unclean." They denied themselves the opportunity God provided -- their probation is over.

Mercy is necessary, from an individual capable of offering, in order for God to be perfectly just and merciful. Through God's mercy a way was provided for us to return clean.

I'm just not seeing the requirement for the mediator. Jesus suffered for all of our sins in a matter of hours, and then it was over. When we die, why can't our loving father just spend a couple hours delivering whatever horrible punishment he sees fit, and then move on?

What is the purpose of a mediator? To successfully create an opportunity that otherwise a person could not do themselves. Why would a loving Father break eternal laws? He wouldn't. When a father teaches his children correct principles and they break these principles -- in other words break either eternal or temporal laws, a punishment is affixed. The amount of love God has for his children doesn't negate consequence, which is what your suggestion/question implies. God, just allow me to do whatever I want to do -- break eternal laws - punish me -- and then give me everything you have even though I have not proven myself worthy of such.

I'm sure I seem incredibly dense to you, but please enlighten me!

Thus the rhetorical question, do you really want to be enlightened? If so, read the scriptures with the guidance of the spirit. Read to actually understand what is truly being taught. Read to understand what the law of justice is and what is the law of mercy. Read to understand why a perfect being is unable, because of his perfect love, to deny justice or mercy their claims. By the way, you won't find it reading books which incorrectly misrepresent it either.

[Finrock]

I thank God with all of my heart that he sent me to a home where I was sexually abused by my mom and grandma. God could have stopped my suffering. I was 6 years old. I was not sinful. My suffering has been a blessing. No man, no woman, no earthly thing could heal me. My heart was broken and when it was I turned to God. I prayed with all the energy of my soul for relief, and He came and relieved me by the power of His spirit. I thank God for allowing me to experience what I experienced because it is what has allowed me to know God as I do.

Now that I see my suffering through the eyesof faith I can hardly call it suffering. That is the point. Suffering is a blessing and God wants to bless us. We need to develope the skill to see suffering for what it is. It is a matter of faith. It is a shift in how you view life and your circumstances.

-Finrock

[Lakumi]

I don't see it as a blessing to be as unhappy and jaded as I am. If that's what blessings are, then I don't want them. I don't want to be unhappy forever, I will never see being alone and having no future as a blessing.

I prayed, a lot when I was young, and it got worse so I grew to hate God.

Now... I try to pray and it leads me nowhere. I read what I was told to and felt nothing.

I went to church and, well I don't like this town so am not eager to be around its people.

But I just prefer to be alone nowadays anyways.

I wanted to believe, to be faithful and whatnot, growing up and still, but you can't force yourself to believe something and I don't know what to do with myself, in that area. All I can think to do is write what I believe and feel inside...

[classylady]

I thank God with all of my heart that he sent me to a home where I was sexually abused by my mom and grandma. God could have stopped my suffering. I was 6 years old. I was not sinful. My suffering has been a blessing. No man, no woman, no earthly thing could heal me. My heart was broken and when it was I turned to God. I prayed with all the energy of my soul for relief, and He came and relieved me by the power of His spirit. I thank God for allowing me to experience what I experienced because it is what has allowed me to know God as I do.

Now that I see my suffering through the eyesof faith I can hardly call it suffering. That is the point. Suffering is a blessing and God wants to bless us. We need to develope the skill to see suffering for what it is. It is a matter of faith. It is a shift in how you view life and your circumstances.

-Finrock

Oh, Finrock, my heart hurts for you.

Edited November 17, 2013 by skippy740

[Finrock]

Good Evening classylady. I hope you're well! :)

Oh, Finrock, my heart hurts for you.

Thank you but don't let your heart hurt. My message is that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, because He went beneath all things, my suffering has turned out for my good. God meant it for my good and that is what it has been. God kept His promise. I am testifying of that.

This life is a test. All things are in order and God is in control. As a sacrifice God said that we must bring a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We can expect to have experiences in life that will break our heart and then it is up to us to choose whether we will have a contrite spirit. God wants us to turn to Him. When we step out of this world, if even in our minds eye, and try to view things from an eternal perspective, our experiences are but training tools. Our suffering and trials, if we exercise faith in Jesus Christ, will refine us. This is what we want! When we see our trials and suffering for what they truly are and when we see ourselves for who we truly are and what we are really doing here on this earth, then we can have joy in our suffering. This is a promise God gives us. It is a true promise.

-Finrock

[Feta]

I thank God with all of my heart that he sent me to a home where I was sexually abused by my mom and grandma.

-Finrock

This is the kind of insane thinking that religion produces. You're saying god purposefully caused a child to be sexually abused, and you are grateful for it?

Even if the experience caused you to turn to god, thanking him for giving you such a horrible, damaging experience seems off to me.

[Leah]

This is the kind of insane thinking that religion produces. You're saying god purposefully caused a child to be sexually abused, and you are grateful for it?

Even if the experience caused you to turn to god, thanking him for giving you such a horrible, damaging experience seems off to me.

And non-religous people never have any "insane" thoughts? Never think anything that's totally logical and acceptable?

I totally get what Finrock is saying. But then, I never closed off my mind to such possibilities.

It was because of my diagnosis of multiple sclerosis that someone felt prompted to share the gospel with me. MS isn't fun...I don't like having it. But I am grateful for the effect it has had on my life.

Am I saying that God purposely "gave" me MS? No. I am saying that bad stuff happens in life. Diseases happen. Molesters have agency. But Heavenly Father can take that bad to create good.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Feta. It is a pleasure to meet you. I hope you are well today! :)

This is the kind of insane thinking that religion produces. You're saying god purposefully caused a child to be sexually abused, and you are grateful for it?

Even if the experience caused you to turn to god, thanking him for giving you such a horrible, damaging experience seems off to me.

It seems insane but it isn't. The opposite is true; it is absolutely sane. It is liberating.

Do you think God didn't know what would happen to me or in fact what would happen to any person who comes to earth? What if I agreed to come down to the conditions that I came down to? If God didn't want me to have the experiences I have had He would not have placed me where He placed me. This is true for all people.

21 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: How comest thou hither to plant this tree, or this branch of the tree? For behold, it was the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard.

22 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto him: Counsel me not; I knew that it was a poor spot of ground; wherefore, I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit.

23 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: Look hither; behold I have planted another branch of the tree also; and thou knowest that this spot of ground was poorer than the first. But, behold the tree. I have nourished it this long time, and it hath brought forth much fruit; therefore, gather it, and lay it up against the season, that I may preserve it unto mine own self (Emphasis added).

I don't say this to boast but I see my experiences as an advantage. But the fact that my experiences are an advantage is only true because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

So, if I'm insane then I'm in good company and I'm happy to be here :

Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.

19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?

20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. (Emphasis added)

Further...

15 Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

24 Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another.

40 And make proposals for peace unto those who have smitten you, according to the voice of the Spirit which is in you, and all things shall work together for your good.

In the temple we learn that Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and introduced suffering, trials, and death specifically because they realized that it was better for us to suffer through trials so that we could know the good from the evil. It is the only way to exaltation and eternal life. God wanted Adam and Eve to partake. There is no other way to heaven. We must walk through the valley of death.

-Finrock

[Connie]

I have perhaps a slightly different perspective on this in that my emphasis would be on our choice to be born into and partake of the experiences of this mortal life. Surely we understood what that would entail. And yet rejoiced that we would come here to learn and suffer.

I think one can very effectively argue that God causes at least some of our suffering in that he was the architect of this plan of salvation. The scriptures say He GAVE us our weaknesses. He knew it would be for our good and for our growth. There are many scriptures that speak of the chastening of God. Chastening hurts. He has commanded us to be perfect even as He is perfect. The very process of becoming perfect is painful. The refiner’s fire doesn’t tickle. And, again, we CHOSE this.

[Finrock]

This is the kind of insane thinking that religion produces. You're saying god purposefully caused a child to be sexually abused, and you are grateful for it?

I want to clarify that not at any point have I said God caused me to be sexually abused. I'm saying that God knew what would happen, He sent me down anyways, and He allowed the abuse to happen. Other's meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

He kept His promise. My suffering has turned out for my good. There is a purpose to our suffering and that purpose is good. We can realize this if we exercise faith in Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

[Praetorian_Brow]

Points for making lemonade from lemons, as well as forgiving yourself and finding solace in your rationalization that the abuse of your person turned into a positive experience. We have no place to question your stance on your horrid experiences, but at the same time, I think myself as well as others, are a bit alarmed that some abuse victims will see your remarks as a version of Stockholm Syndrome and a lessening of the severity of the abusers crime.

I do not believe in the notion that I was placed in an emotionally dead home where my mother was abused, so I could learn a life lesson that was authorized by God and communicated to me so I can have some marvelous emphatic choice of choosing my poison. What I do believe is that, my father disrupted whatever potential for a better life as a family was possible, some of it was no fault of his own, circumstantial and perpetuated, but really, I do not accept that Saturday Warriors fantasy of pre-life.

[Leah]

Points for making lemonade from lemons, as well as forgiving yourself and finding solace in your rationalization that the abuse of your person turned into a positive experience. We have no place to question your stance on your horrid experiences, but at the same time, I think myself as well as others, are a bit alarmed that some abuse victims will see your remarks as a version of Stockholm Syndrome and a lessening of the severity of the abusers crime.

I do not believe in the notion that I was placed in an emotionally dead home where my mother was abused, so I could learn a life lesson that was authorized by God and communicated to me so I can have some marvelous emphatic choice of choosing my poison. What I do believe is that, my father disrupted whatever potential for a better life as a family was possible, some of it was no fault of his own, circumstantial and perpetuated, but really, I do not accept that Saturday Warriors fantasy of pre-life.

I don't see anything that indicates Finrock thinks that what his abusers did was okay or is trying to minimize the horrors that he experienced. Just because some people are able to rise above the terrible things they have lived through and turn them for good does not in any mean they are minimizing what happened to them nor are in any way giving a pass to the perpetrators.

Stockholm Syndrome? Really? Because he is able to be Christlike and forgive? You're really reaching hard on that one. Reaching for something that doesn't exist.

Perhaps your bitterness over certain events in your own life (which comes through in many of your posts) is coloring your ability to understand.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Perhaps and duly noted. In some respects, I admire your ability to summarize and track my obvious bitterness regardless of the origins, however, I will state that my intent is less obvious than simply being as rash as you have observed.

Forgiveness is essential and it is an admirable trait that all should possess, with Finrock and yourself, demonstrating such traits it behooves me to apply your summation and think on it.

Thank you for the honesty of all.

[Lakumi]

Points for making lemonade from lemons, as well as forgiving yourself and finding solace in your rationalization that the abuse of your person turned into a positive experience. We have no place to question your stance on your horrid experiences, but at the same time, I think myself as well as others, are a bit alarmed that some abuse victims will see your remarks as a version of Stockholm Syndrome and a lessening of the severity of the abusers crime.

I do not believe in the notion that I was placed in an emotionally dead home where my mother was abused, so I could learn a life lesson that was authorized by God and communicated to me so I can have some marvelous emphatic choice of choosing my poison. What I do believe is that, my father disrupted whatever potential for a better life as a family was possible, some of it was no fault of his own, circumstantial and perpetuated, but really, I do not accept that Saturday Warriors fantasy of pre-life.

Yeah, I don't accept my life happened the way it did because God wanted to teach me something or build faith, the latter obviously having the total opposite effect...

And if it was something he did, why wouldn't it be successful, or is my fault for not having faith in my lowest moments and such, and still often struggling with it.

[McLainDow]

Thank you for the thoughts Finrock. My only question regarding your last paragraph, "The Father means for us to suffer," then why do others suffer more than others? Some seem to appear to have a meager suffering in this life, while others seem to suffer greatly.

My feeling on this is we are given the trial that will provide with the most growth and also that will hurt us the most. My wife and I have had our share of trials One night she looked at me with tears streaming down her face and said "Why do I deal with (Fill in the blank) why cant I have (fill in the blank) for a trial instead. I have thought about this many times and have faith that the trail I have and the pain I fell are the growth opportunities I need personally to get through my second estate learning and becoming what I came here to learn and become. No one else's trials would do that for me personally but, this also means they cause the most pain for me personally.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yeah, I don't accept my life happened the way it did because God wanted to teach me something or build faith, the latter obviously having the total opposite effect...

And if it was something he did, why wouldn't it be successful, or is my fault for not having faith in my lowest moments and such, and still often struggling with it.

Don't judge success or failure in terms of your current station. This life is just a probationary state, not the final outcome. LDS believe that even the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest of the three) is far greater than anything we encounter here. You are successful, you have passed the first test of faith, the first estate test. This life is to further stratify the successful sons and daughters of God into Kingdoms of Glory. Don't look at the means as the end.

Do you see Christ as the person on the cross or as the glorified being that overcomes all and will reign on this Earth with all power?

Also, this life is more of a faith revealed experience than it is faith builder. We all had faith enough to pass the first estate test, now we show if our faith is strong enough to actually do the things we said we would, or was it just talk.

It is like a soldier who in boot camp vows they would never leave a fallen soldier behind but in the heat of the battle, not all soldiers would do what they vowed to do. There has to be "the heat of the battle" to reveal who those soldiers are. This life is the "heat of the battle", it is our trial, our probationary state.

This life is a test to see where we put our hearts, on the things of this world (or the lack of things of this world making us sorrowful) or on the treasures of heaven. Sometimes, despair and focusing on "suffering" reveals where our heart's treasure lies.

Matthew 6: " 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

[Traveler]

After Jesus is betrayed Peter rises up and chops off the ear of the servant of the high priest who was part of the group to arrest Jesus. In response to this:

Simple question. What is the cup that the Father has given the Son? What would happen if Jesus did not drink the cup given by His Father?

This is the cup that Jesus did drink. This is the cup that the Father has given Him

It was the Father's will that Jesus suffered. In my view, there is no denying this.

The Father means for us to suffer. He wants us to suffer in mortality because our suffering in mortality is really just a lesson on faith. When seen through the eyes of faith, suffering is but a blessing. This is so because Jesus Christ suffered and went beneath all things. Seen from an eternal view our suffering in mortality is but a type and a shadow of the suffering endured by Christ. And yet, if we endure our meager trials and sufferings in faith, as Jesus suffered all things in perfect faith, then through the Atonement of Jesus Christ our small sacrifice will be made great, even as great as the Son's.

-Finrock

In the Garden there was a tree that had the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. We came to this life to experience and gain that specific knowledge that such fruit provides. What is ironic is that many associate suffering with evil - but I believe that it is through suffering (specifically the G-dly suffering given as example through Christ in the atonement). The only possibility of good overcoming evil, as best as I understand, is through the suffering of the righteous because of the sins (evil) of others. Without the goodness of such suffering - evil will triumph. Jesus showed us the way that we must follow and suffer with him.

The Traveler

[Finrock]

Good Morning Traveler. I hope you are well! :)

The only possibility of good overcoming evil, as best as I understand, is through the suffering of the righteous because of the sins (evil) of others. Without the goodness of such suffering - evil will triumph. Jesus showed us the way that we must follow and suffer with him.

I appreciate this comment. I had not considered this thought in exactly this fashion before. If the scriptures are to be believed then the closer to God one becomes, the more suffering they will endure for the sake of Christ. It is a refining and saving process. We can know we are on the right path when we are suffering for Christ's sake.

I like how you pointed out that when the righteous are suffering because of the wickedness of others, they are only emulating the Savior.

-Finrock

[Traveler]

Good Morning Traveler. I hope you are well! :)

I appreciate this comment. I had not considered this thought in exactly this fashion before. If the scriptures are to be believed then the closer to God one becomes, the more suffering they will endure for the sake of Christ. It is a refining and saving process. We can know we are on the right path when we are suffering for Christ's sake.

I like how you pointed out that when the righteous are suffering because of the wickedness of others, they are only emulating the Savior.

-Finrock

Thank you for your response. I believe this to be a critical and important point in understanding the nature of our Father in Heaven. It is because of righteous suffering that I believe Lucifer rejected the Father and became Satan. Anyway it is the only point that makes sense to me as to why a third part of heaven, with full knowledge of what would come to be, would reject the Father. I also believe that because goodness requires the "eternal" suffering of the righteous that many will opt out of Celestial Glory and desire something else.

The Traveler

[Connie]

Another thought, since I have recently gone through 2 Nephi 2 in my scripture study. In verse 23 of that chapter Lehi refers to Adam and Eve in their Edenic state being "in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery" and they would have remained in that state had they stayed in Eden. And then of course two verse later he famously says "men are that they might have joy." But according to this verse in order to have joy one must first be well acquainted with misery. So I thought that was interesting and wanted to add it to the conversation.

Thanks Finrock for starting the thread. It's been interesting to see the different responses. Hope you are doing well.

[Traveler]

Another thought, since I have recently gone through 2 Nephi 2 in my scripture study. In verse 23 of that chapter Lehi refers to Adam and Eve in their Edenic state being "in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery" and they would have remained in that state had they stayed in Eden. And then of course two verse later he famously says "men are that they might have joy." But according to this verse in order to have joy one must first be well acquainted with misery. So I thought that was interesting and wanted to add it to the conversation.

Thanks Finrock for starting the thread. It's been interesting to see the different responses. Hope you are doing well.

Very good insight - may I make one small point to your fantastic insight? That is that joy comes through divine suffering - which is the righteous way to deal with evil. It is my belief that Satan and his followers are miserable because they refuse to suffer.

The Traveler