The Gay Appreciation Thread

[Just_A_Guy]

It's a good PR move. Sort of the same thinking behind mormons.org, and this website for that matter.

I don't mean this to sound combative; I'm just thinking out loud (so to speak), but . . .

How is a thread like this--assuming it plays out as Anatess intended--really different than the standard "I have many gay friends" line that is almost universally blown off these days?

(Anatess, I'm sorry if it feels like I'm jumping all over you. I really don't mean to; I'm just wondering--when a gay person already mistrusts our motives, what does it take for a thread like this to come off as being sincere?)

[carlimac]

Ok, here's my thought on this. I have a friend who happens to have same gender attraction who is now married to his ..uh, "husband?" Whatever. He is funny and talented and intelligent. You know what I love about him? He is funny and talented and intelligent. You know what I dislike about him? He makes it a point to flaunt that he's totally consumed with his sexual orientation and immersed in the lifestyle. I don't care for his lifestyle and I feel it has hampered our friendship. But he's still funny and talented and intelligent.

I have friends of all orientations, races, genders, nationalities. I love them for their good qualities. I empathize with them that they struggle with weaknesses. I struggle, too. I very much dislike when they or anyone else pigeon-holes them into a label, a title that brands them for life.

So for that reason, I very much dislike labeling anyone "gay" or anything else. They should just be "human beings" who happen to be on this life journey with me and I appreciate that I'm not on this journey alone.

Edited January 23, 2014 by carlimac

[NeuroTypical]

I enjoy a higher quality marriage, to a gay guy my wife worked with before we got married. He was bitter, depressed, and sometimes suicidal. His partner/roommate was dying of aids. The partner was dealing with his own impending death better than this guy.

My wife and this guy had a series of incredibly deep conversations about the meaning of life, the nature of God, what is worthwhile and what is ultimately worthless. She tells me both of them came away with altered worldviews. Those conversations helped him gain a little more peace about things, and helped my wife lay a foundation that has been built on to include a temple sealing, a marriage in it's 2nd decade, faith, and children.

I never met him, but I owe him.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[The Folk Prophet]

I still believe that my friend in elementary school wouldn't be the intuitive guy that can work through my feelings if he wasn't gay.

Respectfully, that is nonsense and typical of the gay agenda. Being sensitive has NOTHING to do with desiring sex with someone of the same gender!

I, for example, love musical theater. Oh no! I must be gay! As pointed out in another thread, I cry at silly things. Oh no...I'm sensitive. That must mean I want sex with men.

Ridiculous!

This is the type of "logic" that is being pushed onto our children that makes me mad. Sensitive and Intuitive = gay? This is an absolutely false equation and should be aggressively squelched at every turn.

Sincerely, I think your intentions are good. But we need to face these serious issues with truth. This kind of thing is harmful and does no one any good.

I am, I believe, "reproving" you. So hopefully, per our previous post interactions, you know I appreciate your p.o.v. and love you (to be clear, platonic love.... I have no romantic feelings for you).

[carlimac]

The entire approach of the thread is well intended, and I applaud you for that. But it is mistaken -- as mistaken as Mormons marching in the gay pride parade.

Homosexual feelings may not be a sin in and of themselves, but that doesn't mean it is okay in any regard to have them. It is not okay. Just as it is not okay to struggle with feelings of anger, or sexual attraction to a dog (per the previous, semi-flippant, joke about appreciation for that), or the struggles of addiction, or the struggles of a kleptomaniac. These things need to be seriously regarded as enemies of happiness. I do not appreciate things that are certain to bring sorrow upon my brothers and sisters if not overcome.

I highly recommend you read the book Voices of Hope by Ty Mansfield. These are diligent and faithful members of the church who have unwanted, unsolicited feelings of homosexuality. They work everyday to overcome those feelings. They may have to work at it everyday of their lives. Those feelings just are part of them. Who knows where they came from but they didn't choose to have them. So to say "but that doesn't mean it is okay in any regard to have them." It actually IS ok for them to have those feelings. It just isn't OK to nurture and feed those feelings or to act on them. They may not be feelings someone is ever able to just simply "overcome". For some, yes, they can. But other's that can't but who still go on living pure and righteous lives are no righteous less of a person than those who do overcome and get rid of the feelings. It's not the feelings that are the problem. Just like my craving for chocolate cake for every meal isn't the problem.

Edited January 23, 2014 by carlimac

[Guest]

I have a gay cousin who is talented and fun and makes a genuine effort to be kind to everyone he comes across. Even though his family is LDS, he chooses to focus on the talents and fun and love and kindness that they have in common, as do they; and thus, they have have a very close and loving relationship.

[The Folk Prophet]

I highly recommend you read the book Voices of Hope by Ty Mansfield. These are diligent and faithful members of the church who have unwanted, unsolicited feelings of homosexuality. They work everyday to overcome those feelings. They may have to work at it everyday of their lives. Those feelings just are part of them. Who knows where they came from but they didn't choose to have them. So to say "but that doesn't mean it is okay in any regard to have them." It actually IS ok for them to have those feelings. It just isn't OK to nurture and feed those feelings or to act on them. They may not be feelings someone is ever able to just simply "overcome". For some, yes, they can. But other's that can't but who still go on living pure and righteous lives are no righteous less of a person than those who do overcome and get rid of the feelings. It's not the feelings that are the problem. Just like my craving for chocolate cake for every meal isn't the problem.

Respectfully, I disagree.

I've had this conversation before though. Part of it comes down to what we mean by "okay". Is it okay to be imperfect? Well, yes...and no. We should always be struggling to be perfect. If we aren't there yet, as long as we're trying, it's okay. But it's not okay. Just depends on what you mean.

So it is with this subject. Is it okay? Yes. But no. We should always be struggling to overcome things that are not in accordance with God's plan for us. The fact that we may struggle with them our entire lives is okay, that we may never entirely overcome them is okay, etc. But that doesn't mean it's okay to just accept them as who we are or that we'll never, in all eternity, be able to overcome them.

It is not a good thing to have homosexual feelings, regardless of whether it is a sin or not.

Compare it to a porn addiction. It may never go away. We may always struggle with it, always have to be careful about alone time at the computer, always struggle with keeping images from popping into our heads, etc. The fact that we have this struggle is okay. The fact that we desire to look at explicit images is NOT.

That is the point: Struggling with homosexual feeling is okay. Having homosexual feelings is not. Denying this is highly problematic.

I think Ty Mansfield's entire p.o.v. is messed up, btw.

[NeuroTypical]

This thread is not the thread to discuss gay marriage or gay sexual relationships.

Anyone able to give the OP a little love here?

[Smeagums]

I would like to know why the Church's gay website says that having gay thoughts and feelings are okay as long as they aren't acted out but Christ in the New Testament said that when someone lusts after another they have already committed adultery in their heart.

[Guest]

Respectfully, that is nonsense and typical of the gay agenda. Being sensitive has NOTHING to do with desiring sex with someone of the same gender!

I, for example, love musical theater. Oh no! I must be gay! As pointed out in another thread, I cry at silly things. Oh no...I'm sensitive. That must mean I want sex with men.

Ridiculous!

This is the type of "logic" that is being pushed onto our children that makes me mad. Sensitive and Intuitive = gay? This is an absolutely false equation and should be aggressively squelched at every turn.

Sincerely, I think your intentions are good. But we need to face these serious issues with truth. This kind of thing is harmful and does no one any good.

I am, I believe, "reproving" you. So hopefully, per our previous post interactions, you know I appreciate your p.o.v. and love you (to be clear, platonic love.... I have no romantic feelings for you).

I don't think sensitive and intuitive = gay. I think sensitive and intuitive is a common female trait. There are boys who are sensitive and intuitive but it is not a common trait in boys. Just like there are females who are combative (me included, I was your classic tomboy) but combative is not a common trait in females. But, GENERALLY, sensitive and intuitive is a female trait and combative is a male trait. Therefore, an effminate boy - like my friend - is sensitive and intuitive precisely because he is effiminate. Do you see the difference with this logic from your statement - he is sensitive and intuitive so he is gay?

It's like saying - boys like GI Joe. Well, I like GI Joe. I'm not a boy. But, generally, boys like GI Joes, girls like Barbies. So, when you see a boy playing with a GI Joe, people will say - of course he likes GI Joe! He's a boy!

Now, not all gays are effiminate. My husband's best friend (who was my college classmate) is not effiminate. At all. We didn't know he was gay until he told us. He's not the sensitive and intuitive type.

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think sensitive and intuitive = gay. I think sensitive and intuitive is a common female trait. There are boys who are sensitive and intuitive but it is not a common trait in boys. Just like there are females who are combative (me included, I was your classic tomboy) but combative is not a common trait in females. But, GENERALLY, sensitive and intuitive is a female trait and combative is a male trait. Therefore, an effminate boy - like my friend - is sensitive and intuitive precisely because he is effiminate. Do you see the difference with this logic from your statement - he is sensitive and intuitive so he is gay?

It's like saying - boys like GI Joe. Well, I like GI Joe. I'm not a boy. But, generally, boys like GI Joes, girls like Barbies. So, when you see a boy playing with a GI Joe, people will say - of course he likes GI Joe! He's a boy!

Now, not all gays are effiminate. My husband's best friend (who was my college classmate) is not effiminate. At all. We didn't know he was gay until he told us. He's not the sensitive and intuitive type.

How is it that we're saying the same thing and disagreeing? :)

The implication of your statement "I still believe that my friend in elementary school wouldn't be the intuitive guy that can work through my feelings if he wasn't gay" is that he is a better person because he is gay, based on how intuitive he is. So I read that as you mean he is intuitive because he is gay. I say nonsense.

Moreover, effeminate does not mean gay either (though the world will sure try and convince you that it must).

Let's be very clear here. Being gay is about sexual attraction to a specific gender, not about other traits. You have said as much in this latest post. So wherein, logically, does his gayness make him more capable of intuition? Logical fallacy at play here.

I also reject the theory that sensitive and intuitive is a uniquely female trait. I call sexist on that one. :)

[Guest]

Okay, back to topic:

Another gay guy from my high school. I owe him this weapon in my "come back arsenal":

How dare you insinuate that I could tolerate such a diabolical insolence from a scrap of humanity such as you.

LOL! Good times, good times.

[Guest]

How is it that we're saying the same thing and disagreeing? :)

The implication of your statement "I still believe that my friend in elementary school wouldn't be the intuitive guy that can work through my feelings if he wasn't gay" is that he is a better person because he is gay, based on how intuitive he is. So I read that as you mean he is intuitive because he is gay. I say nonsense.

Moreover, effeminate does not mean gay either (though the world will sure try and convince you that it must).

Let's be very clear here. Being gay is about sexual attraction to a specific gender, not about other traits. You have said as much in this latest post. So wherein, logically, does his gayness make him more capable of intuition? Logical fallacy at play here.

I also reject the theory that sensitive and intuitive is a uniquely female trait. I call sexist on that one. :)

You're probably right.

All the guys that I have ever known in my life who are effiminate are gay. But, you're right, I can't really say all effiminate guys are gay because, as Hugh Grant says in Two Weeks Notice: That's nonesense! Have you met all <effiminate guys> in the world?

[Guest]

And... one more:

My high school table tennis coach is gay. I stuck with table tennis because at his insistence - I was in varsity volleyball but the last female table tennis player he had graduated the previous year, so, because I was best friends with the table tennis men's team, I got to play a lot of table tennis... and... not only did we win the Catholic Athletics Association Championship Trophy in volleyball, I - ME - MYSELF, won the CAA Championship Trophy for Table Tennis! I was pretty popular. LOL!

[Guest]

I'm going to persevere...

In the Philippines, there's a niche for effiminate gay people in several areas. My town, for example, has a Gay Pageant every year where gay people dress up in evening gowns and show off a talent and have a question and answer portion and they crown Miss Gay. These are celibate gays (Catholic town - you won't pass requirements for the pageant unless you're "morally upright").

And I tell you - they are super duper awesome fun! They are all successful in the community - mostly owning high-end beauty salons or dressmakers or decorators or dance studios (seems to be the most common occupation of effiminate gay people in the Philippines). And they are highly respected!

[Guest]

And one more:

In the Philippines where majority are devout Catholics, gays are encouraged to become priests or nuns. The gay priest in my college is a terror (very strict disciplinarian!) but he is so well loved by so many for his awesome Religous Education class.

[carlimac]

Respectfully, that is nonsense and typical of the gay agenda. Being sensitive has NOTHING to do with desiring sex with someone of the same gender!

I, for example, love musical theater. Oh no! I must be gay! As pointed out in another thread, I cry at silly things. Oh no...I'm sensitive. That must mean I want sex with men.

Ridiculous!

This is the type of "logic" that is being pushed onto our children that makes me mad. Sensitive and Intuitive = gay? This is an absolutely false equation and should be aggressively squelched at every turn.

Sincerely, I think your intentions are good. But we need to face these serious issues with truth. This kind of thing is harmful and does no one any good.

I am, I believe, "reproving" you. So hopefully, per our previous post interactions, you know I appreciate your p.o.v. and love you (to be clear, platonic love.... I have no romantic feelings for you).

My husband is very sensitive and works through my feelings just fine. He's a good listener and communicator. He has absolutely no same gender attraction!

[Bini]

Shout out to my nephew who came out awhile ago. He is a wonderful young man and I wish him only the best as he makes his journey through this life. I know that while the world might shun him, there are those of us that love him dearly and that the Lord is always with him.

Another shout out to my husband's best friend who is a 40-something year old gay man that has never married but goes far and beyond himself to help others. Also a special shout out to our dear friends, L and L, that have been in a loving lesbian relationship for many years. Both these women are amazing, hard working, and don't define themselves by their sexuality. They also raised their children as single mothers prior to meeting and have done a fabulous job with that.

Lots of endless love to these special people in our lives. We love you for you, not because you're gay, because you are you! We appreciate you as human beings and hope that one day the GLBT community will have many of the same freedoms that my husband and I have.

[Quin]

As a child I told myself I would have fought the Nazi's and marched with Dr. King.

As an adult, I can do no less.

And WHEN did it okay on this forum to call people swine, coons, or dog rapers to marginalize their humanity???

Q

[carlimac]

Respectfully, I disagree.

I've had this conversation before though. Part of it comes down to what we mean by "okay". Is it okay to be imperfect? Well, yes...and no. We should always be struggling to be perfect. If we aren't there yet, as long as we're trying, it's okay. But it's not okay. Just depends on what you mean.

So it is with this subject. Is it okay? Yes. But no. We should always be struggling to overcome things that are not in accordance with God's plan for us. The fact that we may struggle with them our entire lives is okay, that we may never entirely overcome them is okay, etc. But that doesn't mean it's okay to just accept them as who we are or that we'll never, in all eternity, be able to overcome them.

It is not a good thing to have homosexual feelings, regardless of whether it is a sin or not.

Compare it to a porn addiction. It may never go away. We may always struggle with it, always have to be careful about alone time at the computer, always struggle with keeping images from popping into our heads, etc. The fact that we have this struggle is okay. The fact that we desire to look at explicit images is NOT.

That is the point: Struggling with homosexual feeling is okay. Having homosexual feelings is not. Denying this is highly problematic.

I think Ty Mansfield's entire p.o.v. is messed up, btw.

You're splitting hairs in such a way that makes it hard to tell what you're really saying. How can you struggle to control something if you don't "have" it in the first place? No one knows the source of these feelings. They're just there. The problem isn't that the feelings exist. The problem is cultivating and focusing on the feelings.

Really? You think Ty Mansfield's point of view that aligns squarely with the Church's is messed up? How? Have you even read his books?

[The Folk Prophet]

And WHEN did it okay on this forum to call people swine, coons, or dog rapers to marginalize their humanity???

But it is okay to compare those who think homosexuality is a sin to Nazi's?

Interesting logic.

Not to mention that what you are accusing never happened.

[carlimac]

You're probably right.

All the guys that I have ever known in my life who are effiminate are gay. But, you're right, I can't really say all effiminate guys are gay because, as Hugh Grant says in Two Weeks Notice: That's nonesense! Have you met all <effiminate guys> in the world?

I know several effeminate guys. One is an interior designer. Another a talented musician. Another loves to shop for clothes. All married to women and have fathered children. Perhaps they have SSA but haven't made it public. But as far as I know ( and I don't really want to know more) they are not gay.

[Suzie]

I thought the OP was clear :

So, if you have any positive experiences with gay people in your life, or if there's anything you are doing that is benefitting the gay community, please share it here.

This thread is not the thread to discuss gay marriage or gay sexual relationships.

Why hijack the thread?

Anyhow, going back on topic my best friend is gay. I love her to pieces! She has been a great influence in my life, a wonderful human being and amazing friend. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

Not to mention that what you are accusing never happened.

I think Quin was probably alluding to this post of Vort's.

Now, I agree that technically Vort did not call anyone a dog-rapist or anything else. On the other hand, he did imply very strongly that he believes gay sex to be a sin, and to be just as much of a "perversion" (his term) as bestiality.

Technically, Vort has not crossed the line of "hating the sin, loving the sinner"--except insofar as he has used strong language to convey just how grave of a sin he thinks gay sex is. But he's still in hot water.

I find that interesting. It may be a bit of a threadjack, but I find it at least semi-topical because the purpose of this thread seems to be to show that we can love the sinner while still hating the sin. But exchanges like the above do sort of beg the question of whether, in the minds of gay-rights advocates, such a thing is even possible or desirable anymore.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

The guy who hired me for my first-ever professional writing gig, a really friendly and nice person, had some effeminate mannerisms. I was privately convinced he was gay, until one day he mentioned something about his wife. Oops. So much for stereotypes. The same scenario played out years later (a year or so ago) with another work colleague.