omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Right. But here's a question for you and others who see it this way (and I don't necessarily disagree)... What about injury, disease, libido problems, etc.? Do they justify leaving because of the resulting lack of sex? And if not, how do we determine the root cause of the sexless situation? How do we know that the spouse who is not engaging isn't dealing with some sort of issue beyond their own choices? How do we know there isn't a chemical imbalance, a physical impairment, a mental or emotional disability, etc.?Obviously the items you have outlined do not create a valid reason for divorce. Physical/mental impairments aside what viable excuse could there be? If we go back to the OP, and I give everything we are told a 50% discount because we are only hearing one side of the story. IF and that's a big IF we assume that the OP is innocent and the spouse does not want to and has no desire to fulfill marital obligations (assuming no medical or psychological reasons) then I say the OP has a case. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Perhaps it helps to explain it's not the lack of sex that is the heart of the issue in my mind. It's the lack of effort to fulfill your partner, to enrich your marriage. Lack of libido doesn't mean she can't make reasonable compromise, and there are ways without intercourse to make a compromise. I assume there are reasonable attempts and figuring things out, counseling and etc... I assume there are reasonable attempts at compromise from both parties. Still, I have to go back to the selfish thing. If she isn't making reasonable compromises to fulfill me, to enrich me, to make me happy, me, me, me, then I'm outta here! Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that Brigham wasn't living up to his marital duties? Really? he had 55 wives, children with 16 of them and was the leader of the church and territory of Utah....Physical time constraints dictate that he could not possibly have lived up to his marital duties. However that is not relevant to the current conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Still, I have to go back to the selfish thing. If she isn't making reasonable compromises to fulfill me, to enrich me, to make me happy, me, me, me, then I'm outta here!If *he* doesn't stop beating me, doesn't stop hurting me, doesn't stop making me feel bad, then I'm outta here!I don't think that taking care of your own well being is always a selfish thing. No matter how many times you invoke the word me. auzziegirl and BeenThereDoneThat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Obviously the items you have outlined do not create a valid reason for divorce. Physical/mental impairments aside what viable excuse could there be? If we go back to the OP, and I give everything we are told a 50% discount because we are only hearing one side of the story. IF and that's a big IF we assume that the OP is innocent and the spouse does not want to and has no desire to fulfill marital obligations (assuming no medical or psychological reasons) then I say the OP has a case. The OP has a case if the OP wants to have a case. It's their choice, their agency, and their legal right to leave. Justified by God though? We simply cannot answer that. The only advise that should be given them in this case is to go to God with it and follow the Spirit. Any other advise is wrong. auzziegirl and jerome1232 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Really? Really what? I asked a question. A yes/no question nonetheless. he had 55 wives, children with 16 of them and was the leader of the church and territory of Utah....Physical time constraints dictate that he could not possibly have lived up to his marital duties. However that is not relevant to the current conversation. So...your answer is "yes". Okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 If *he* doesn't stop beating me, doesn't stop hurting me, doesn't stop making me feel bad, then I'm outta here!I don't think that taking care of your own well being is always a selfish thing. No matter how many times you invoke the word me. I'm going to discontinue this discussion with you. I say feeling unfulfilled and you turn it into getting beaten. Which means we're talking past each other. So I'm going to stop talking past you, and not respond any further to you're talking past me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Really what? I asked a question. A yes/no question nonetheless. So...your answer is "yes". Okay. Still, I have to go back to the selfish thing. If she isn't making reasonable compromises to fulfill me, to enrich me, to make me happy, me, me, me, then I'm outta here!It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who deals in absolutes. There are very, very few absolutes in this life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) I'm going to discontinue this discussion with you. I say feeling unfulfilled and you turn it into getting beaten. Which means we're talking past each other. So I'm going to stop talking past you, and not respond any further to you're talking past me. You misunderstand me. I turned it to showing how your own logic seems to dictate staying in an abusive relationship because you are caring for your own needs.Again, just because you are taking care of yourself, doesn't make it a selfish act. Edited October 30, 2014 by jerome1232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who deals in absolutes. No it's not. You say, "I think this." And the other person says, "Well I think this." And you say, "Huh. Interesting." A voila! You just had a conversation! There are very, very few absolutes in this life. I'm not sure where you get absolutes from my points. I've repeatedly pointed out that I agree in principle, but apply differently. That's not an absolute. I accept there are justifiable divorces, and have said so multiple times in this thread. However, I do tend towards absolutes. I basically disagree with you. Absolutes are the constant of life. They are the core of why we're here. Truth, the finding of which is the core of our existence, is absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think what I see in the thread is that someone will make a statement, and it is turned around on them. As being selfish, or all about me, or implying that there maybe underlying reasons for lack of fulfillment of marital duties. I agree, that you agree in principle in justifiable divorce. It seems to ME and I may be very wrong please correct me if I am, but you are viewing other statements through your prism of what is and is not acceptable and responding as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 You misunderstand me. I turned it to showing how your own logic seems to dictate staying in an abusive relationship because you are caring for your own needs. Like I said we seem to be misunderstanding each other consistently, which means we're not communicating, which means we're going in circles, which leads me to not really want to continue. omegaseamaster75 contends I'm dealing in absolutes. Yet to me, there is a clear and distinctive difference that takes wisdom and understanding to see the line where the actions of a spouse are truly dangerous and when the actions of a spouse are the typical weaknesses of mortality that require patience, long-suffering, and endurance. And it is not absolute at all. To put feeling abused because of a spouse's weak libido into the same class as a spouse punching you in the face is creating absolutes. They are different. Every circumstance is different. Every motivation is different. Every marriage is different. That is the core of my contention, which you and others seem to either not understand or are ignoring in favor of debate. All abuse is not equal. Some should be responded to with long-suffering, some should be responded to with flight, and some should be responded to with the sword. When you take my ideas and caricaturize them into absolutes, and then accuse me of dealing in absolutes and faulty logic, then how can I respond in any other than by walking away? Again, just because you are taking care of yourself, doesn't make it a selfish act. By very definition, yes it does. The question is simply, when is a selfish act acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notquiteperfect Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Physical/mental impairments aside what viable excuse could there be? Well, adultery for one. I don't think dealing with that puts a spouse in the mood! auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 I agree, that you agree in principle in justifiable divorce. It seems to ME and I may be very wrong please correct me if I am, but you are viewing other statements through your prism of what is and is not acceptable and responding as such. Of course I'm responding through my prism of what is and is not acceptable. And so are you and all others. And so is everyone who ever responds to anything. auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Like I said we seem to be misunderstanding each other consistently, which means we're not communicating, which means we're going in circles, which leads me to not really want to continue. omegaseamaster75 contends I'm dealing in absolutes. Yet to me, there is a clear and distinctive difference that takes wisdom and understanding to see the line where the actions of a spouse are truly dangerous and when the actions of a spouse are the typical weaknesses of mortality that require patience, long-suffering, and endurance. And it is not absolute at all. To put feeling abused because of a spouse's weak libido into the same class as a spouse punching you in the face is creating absolutes. They are different. Every circumstance is different. Every motivation is different. Every marriage is different. That is the core of my contention, which you and others seem to either not understand or are ignoring in favor of debate. All abuse is not equal. Some should be responded to with long-suffering, some should be responded to with flight, and some should be responded to with the sword. When you take my ideas and caricaturize them into absolutes, and then accuse me of dealing in absolutes and faulty logic, then how can I respond in any other than by walking away? By very definition, yes it does. The question is simply, when is a selfish act acceptable?would you classify lack of performance of marital duties as a form of abuse? I say yes. It implies a lack of caring for the other spouses feelings and needs. Yes needs. Everyone has needs spiritual and physical. Some would argue that abuse suffered that is not "physical" in nature is just as bad as getting slapped around by your spouse. auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 would you classify lack of performance of marital duties as a form of abuse? It is decidedly more complicated than that. This question simply cannot be narrowed down to yes/no. Let's take the sex side of things off the discussion table for a minute for clarity's sake and use a different marital duty as an example -- the duty of a husband to provide for his wife and family. Does that help in understanding how complex it is? Where is the line that classifies failure to provide? What if the husband did his best but failed? Does that mean he didn't do his duty? What if the failure is simply not his fault? If he loses his job through no fault of his own? Is the wife then justified in leaving? He's not providing any more, right? What if there are disasters or health issues that take up all the money. What if the economy crumbles? On the other hand, if the husband is sitting around playing video games all day, spending money on things he shouldn't, and letting his children starve...well...now that's a different story. But wait! What if he has diagnosable emotional or mental issues? What about A.D.D.? Bipolar? Etc? Does that alter the equation as to when and if it's justifiable to walk out on him? It's complicated! So I'm not going to reply with a yes/no answer to your question. I don't know the answer. What I do know is that I believe that favor (strong favor) should always go towards the covenants we have made, and the keeping of families together. I say yes. It implies a lack of caring for the other spouses feelings and needs. Yes needs. Everyone has needs spiritual and physical. Some would argue that abuse suffered that is not "physical" in nature is just as bad as getting slapped around by your spouse. Some would argue that a spouse failing to take the garbage out is just as bad as getting slapped around too. Like I've said, and will repeat again...each person must determine on their own what does or does not justify divorce. It is not my place to say. But as for me -- I would consider my wife daily literally punching me in the face more abusive than her refusing me sex. Connie, Backroads and MrShorty 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Right. But here's a question for you and others who see it this way (and I don't necessarily disagree)... What about injury, disease, libido problems, etc.? Do they justify leaving because of the resulting lack of sex? And if not, how do we determine the root cause of the sexless situation? How do we know that the spouse who is not engaging isn't dealing with some sort of issue beyond their own choices? How do we know there isn't a chemical imbalance, a physical impairment, a mental or emotional disability, etc.? I am reminded of a few things:1) I am reminded of an interview with Christopher Reeve and his after his accident that left him paralyzed. Somehow, the topic of sex came up and, while not revealing any details, the couple indicated that sex had not left their relationship in spite of his injuries. Clearly, one anecdote cannot be the gold standard for everyone. Each couple will need to decide for themselves exactly how they will deal with injury, illness, age, and such. What I see from sex therapists and the like is that most couple can figure out a workable sexual relationship in spite of illness or injury or age if they will make it a priority. 2) I thought Dr. Harley had an interesting discussion on it here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=36&subsublink=207 Like jerome1232, he explains that it is often more about effort and willingness than ability. It is a lot easier to deal with illness, injury, and age when you can think back and recall how you husband/wife made the sexual relationship a priority when they were able. What is difficult is remembering that he/she would not even when they could have, but now they can't. In putting this down, I think I hit on one of the things I find most frustrating about these kinds of conversations. The overall message I take away from these discussions (at least when they occur on this forum), is a sense (never said explicitly) that sex is not and should not be a priority in any marriage. Part of that is simply a hold over from the days when I really believed that was what the Church wanted me to believe. It often feels like our attitude does not leave room to make the sexual relationship a (not the only) priority in marriage. I don't know how close the OP really is to divorce, but, as I look at my own struggles and desires, sometimes what I really want is someone to acknowledge that it is ok to make the sexual side of marriage a priority -- that it is ok to actively pursue a sexual relationship with one's wife. BeenThereDoneThat and auzziegirl 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 In putting this down, I think I hit on one of the things I find most frustrating about these kinds of conversations. The overall message I take away from these discussions (at least when they occur on this forum), is a sense (never said explicitly) that sex is not and should not be a priority in any marriage. Right. Fair point. I think sex should be a priority. A high one. But priority implies it has it's place. And I think it fairly safe to say that it should not be the top priority. MrShorty, auzziegirl, Leah and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hierarchy of priorities....were should sex fall? say between 1 and 5 It is in the top 5 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hierarchy of priorities....were should sex fall? say between 1 and 5 It is in the top 5 right? Interesting question. But I'm not sure it would be valid to put it into numerical term like that. Theoretically we could come up with a huge list of important things that come before it. But that doesn't make it unimportant. It's also, as I've stated, relative. Moreover, it's relative to individuals involved, their state in marriage, etc. In other words, much higher priority for newly-weds than for a couple who's been married for 50 years. jerome1232 and MrShorty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) I have never contemplated divorce, however it is not off the plate. If my wife were to commit one of the three A's I would be gone. The three a's being? Adultery, abuse (I am assuming?), and the other? I'm sure once you tell me it will be a "well, duh!...face palm" moment for me, but right now I can't figure out what the others are. :) Edited October 30, 2014 by auzziegirl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 The three a's being? Adultery, Abuse (I am assuming?), and the other? I'm sure once you tell me it will be a "well, duh!...face palm" moment for me :) The third A is Addiction auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Which is interesting, I'd probably the consider separation and time to clean up in the case of addiction. Despite it all, I think we actually more or less agree. To use TFP example, if the man decided he just didn't really like to work and that his family just could survive on food stamps, I was considering a situation like that when I said, well maybe it could be a reason to divorce.Hopefully I am making myself clearer than mud, typing on my phone makes me brief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 This is interesting. I wonder if he was consciously and purposefully alluding to sex when he said "marriage responsibilities". I wondered the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hierarchy of priorities....were should sex fall? say between 1 and 5 It is in the top 5 right? Like TFP says, I think it is real hard to rank some of these priorities -- especially in any kind of "applies to all couples" kind of way. If you really want to rank priorities, I would probably look at a philosophy like Dr. Harley's (marriagebuilders.com ). The idea is to figure out what things are most effective at making deposits to your and your spouse's love banks and what things are most effective at making withdrawals. When you understand what your spouse's most important emotional needs are, then those things need to become your priorities. If a husband falls in line with Dr. Harley's "averages" and lists sexual fulfillment as his most important need, then a wife should probably put that somewhere near the top of the priority list. If a wife lists affection at the top of her list, then a husband needs to put those things near the top of his priority list. jerome1232 and auzziegirl 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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