Republican vs Democrat

[Guest MormonGator]

To me, the Book of Mormon isn't political. If you agree that the Book of Mormon is inspired scripture (and I do, fully) you are a Mormon in someway, shape, or form. The political stuff is for you, your conscience and your bishop in rare matters. 

 

I'm in the middle. I'm a libertarian with some liberal views (anti-war, civil liberties) and some conservative views (second amendment, pro-life). So...do I pass the test? Can I be a legit, believing Mormon? 

 

I think I do just fine. 

[estradling75]

Then I apologize to you and everyone else who has responded. What you accuse me of was never my intention.    

 

 

Here is a progression that I can imagine. 

 

The church tells me to vote for whom I think is the best.  Lets say I find myself voting constantly democrat because I am following that council.

 

The church tell me to be active, involved, and engaged in our communities (including politics).  Because of the way I vote it makes all kinds of sense to be a Democrat.  By this affiliation I stand a better chance of helping the group go in ways I deem desirable, and maybe counteract the things about it I do not like.

 

Thus in this example I have faithfully followed the church council to the best I know how and I am affiliated with the Democratic party.

 

Then my temple recommend interview comes around...  And I get the question you keep asking about...  Since I got to where I was by following Church council it doesn't even ping on my awareness that someone might consider the Democratic party to what this question is talking about. I know that I don't.  So I answer the question honesty and truthfully.

[Palerider]

Perhaps it wasn't the case 20 years or more ago, but I firmly believe that today it's impossible to be a "good" Mormon and a "good" Democrat at the same time. 

Frankly, when it comes to question #6 for a Temple Recommend, I don't understand how a "good" Democrat can honestly answer the question with a "no"?

Based off this....if you were a Bishop and a member of your Ward was before you for a Temple Rec and you knew they were a Good Democrat....your not signing their Reccomend ?? due to your interpretation of question 6 ???

[The Folk Prophet]

...it doesn't even ping on my awareness that someone might consider the [such-n-such organization] to what this question is talking about.

 

For what it's worth: Maybe this is the problem. I'm fairly non-political, so I don't have a strong view on the specific debate, but there sure do seem to be a lot of people out there all innocently not-even-considering such things.

[Guest]

Wrong. I'm not a registered republican, nor do I routinely vote for them.

 

Great!  Then the discussion becomes easier... I'm not an American citizen so I can't be affiliated with either.

 

So, let's address your question... "Do you affiliate with groups that teach things contrary to the Church?"...

 

Why a registered Democrat can say NO...

 

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give to God what is God's.  From Lucifer's failure to understand the will of God we learn that his plan was to COMPELL people to do good things.  There was not gonna be a choice.  It was gonna be forced upon the people.  This was rejected because God puts great value on Free Will (that and He saw through Lucifer's desire to give glory unto himself).  So that, instead of removing the bad choice, God places the opposition right in the path of our spirits so that we can choose to go right or left.

 

An LDS Democrat, therefore, when it comes to things such as Abortion or Gay marriage - is affording the people (who are not all covenant children of God) a preservation of the original choices that God gave man to exercise Free Agency.  Removing the choice by threat of Ceasar's reprisal is Lucifer's plan.  And we all read in the NT that Jesus - when asked if one should pay Ceasar taxes - clearly states that you give to Ceasar what is expedient to the law of non-covenant people AND you give to God your soul.  Therefore, just because you allowed OTHERS the benefit of choice in Ceasar's government doesn't mean that YOU yourself is going to make that bad choice.

 

Why this is easier to explain to somebody who is not registered Republican?   I don't have to explain then why the opposite (removing Free Agency through force of government) position attached to Republicans is STILL compatible with gospel principles.

Edited February 11, 2015 by anatess

[Windseeker]

Great!  Then the discussion becomes easier... I'm not an American citizen so I can't be affiliated with either.

 

So, let's address your question... "Do you affiliate with groups that teach things contrary to the Church?"...

 

Why a registered Democrat can say NO...

 

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give to God what is God's.  From Lucifer's failure to understand the will of God we learn that his plan was to COMPELL people to do good things.  There was not gonna be a choice.  It was gonna be forced upon the people.  This was rejected because God puts great value on Free Will (that and He saw through Lucifer's desire to give glory unto himself).  So that, instead of removing the bad choice, God places the opposition right in the path of our spirits so that we can choose to go right or left.

 

An LDS Democrat, therefore, when it comes to things such as Abortion or Gay marriage - is affording the people (who are not all covenant children of God) a preservation of the original choices that God gave man to exercise Free Agency.  Removing the choice by threat of Ceasar's reprisal is Lucifer's plan.  And we all read in the NT that Jesus - when asked if one should pay Ceasar taxes - clearly states that you give to Ceasar what is expedient to the law of non-covenant people AND you give to God your soul.  Therefore, just because you allowed OTHERS the benefit of choice in Ceasar's government doesn't mean that YOU yourself is going to make that bad choice.

 

Why this is easier to explain to somebody who is not registered Republican?   I don't have to explain then why the opposite (removing Free Agency through force of government) position attached to Republicans is STILL compatible with gospel principles.

 

 

If this is the case then those who voted for Barabbas to be released and Christ to be crucified while crying "Let his blood be upon us and upon our children." are not accountable because it was Pilate who did the deed. 

 

I brought up this topic before and I firmly believe we will be held accountable for who/what we vote for. You seriously think I wouldn't be held accountable if I voted to legalize (allow OTHERS the benefit of choice) snuff films or cannibalism?  Is that rendering unto Ceasar?...lol

[prisonchaplain]

There is an argument to be made that allowing people liberty on social issues (including marriage) might make the choice more spiritual.  "All things are lawful, not all things are wise."  I am willing to see Caesar nod in favor toward the Judea-Christian ethic that has prevailed in the U.S.  On the other hand, the tide seems to be turning, and I can see the day when Caesar will enforce a kind of secularism that will infringe upon those of us with rigorous spiritual practice.  It may be that liberty was the right choice after all.

 

I could also see that if bishops chose to follow their own opinions (perhaps believing God had directed them to their wisdom), they could bar Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, pro-choicers, pro-lifers, etc.  Even those who believe that liberty should prevail, could then argue that Republicans often deny liberty by trying to enforce moral codes (tradtitional marriage, abortion restrictions, etc.).

 

My perception remains that the TR question was meant to be interpreted narrowly.  I'm sure there are current or former bishops here that could answer the question better than most of us.

[skalenfehl]

When I get asked during my temple recommend interview if I affiliate with people, etc, etc not in views with the church (however it's worded), I simply smile and reply, "Republicans and Democrats."  :)

[Palerider]

When I get asked during my temple recommend interview if I affiliate with people, etc, etc not in views with the church (however it's worded), I simply smile and reply, "Republicans and Democrats."  :)

I will say when I got to do interviews for Temple Rec I was sometimes pleasantly surprised by answers I was given.

[Guest]

If this is the case then those who voted for Barabbas to be released and Christ to be crucified while crying "Let his blood be upon us and upon our children." are not accountable because it was Pilate who did the deed. 

 

I brought up this topic before and I firmly believe we will be held accountable for who/what we vote for. You seriously think I wouldn't be held accountable if I voted to legalize (allow OTHERS the benefit of choice) snuff films or cannibalism?  Is that rendering unto Ceasar?...lol

 

You keep on forgetting... We're not talking about VOTING.  We're talking about "Registered as" in relation to question #6 in the TR interview.

Edited February 12, 2015 by anatess

[Capitalist_Oinker]

I finally have some time to visit again and I'd like to start off by apologizing once more to all of you. Estradling75's censure got me to thinking, which thinking led me to believe that he was probably right. Hopefully I can do better in the future.

 

I'd like to respond to a few subsequent posts, and rather than a separate post to each response I’ll just include them all in one.

 

estradling75 wrote:

"Here is a progression that I can imagine…."

 

I probably don't imagine it as easily as you do, but it is plausible. Thank you for a real answer to my question.

 

MormonGator wrote:

"I'm in the middle. I'm a libertarian with some liberal views (anti-war, civil liberties) and some conservative views (second amendment, pro-life). So...do I pass the test? Can I be a legit, believing Mormon?"

 

The question was never whether one could be a legit, believing Mormon; the question was simply how someone could answer a particular question with a "no". They are almost certainly "legit" and "believing" if they're there for a temple recommend.

 

Palerider wrote:

"Based off this....if you were a Bishop and a member of your Ward was before you for a Temple Rec and you knew they were a Good Democrat....your not signing their Reccomend ?? due to your interpretation of question 6 ???"

 

Yes, I would sign the recommend (and in fact, did); I thought I made that perfectly clear in a previous post.

 

Anatess wrote:

"An LDS Democrat, therefore, when it comes to things such as Abortion or Gay marriage - is affording the people (who are not all covenant children of God) a preservation of the original choices that God gave man to exercise Free Agency."

 

I understand the sentiment. I'm about as far right on the political spectrum as is possible without being an anarchist, so my inclination is to always err on the side of agency. But for me, when the Prophet and Apostles have spoken, that is the end of the argument no matter what my personal feelings.

 

Windseeker wrote:

"…I firmly believe we will be held accountable for who/what we vote for."

 

I firmly believe you’re right.

"We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them…"

(D&C 134:1)

[paracaidista508]

Easy decision as far as demo vs rebub.

If you support abortion you are a democrat or should at least vote that way. I mean lets face it- the democratic party is all about abortion.

 

Everyone else- republican/ conservative.

no push- thats just the way it is.

[Guest]

 

Anatess wrote:

"An LDS Democrat, therefore, when it comes to things such as Abortion or Gay marriage - is affording the people (who are not all covenant children of God) a preservation of the original choices that God gave man to exercise Free Agency."

 

I understand the sentiment. I'm about as far right on the political spectrum as is possible without being an anarchist, so my inclination is to always err on the side of agency. But for me, when the Prophet and Apostles have spoken, that is the end of the argument no matter what my personal feelings.

 

 

Capitalist, I don't understand this post.  I agree with you that when the Prophet/Apostles speak that's the end of the argument.  I just don't see how this applies to registering as a Democrat.  The Prophet/Apostles hasn't spoken that one should not register as a Democrat because they do not make laws to ban Abortion and Gay Marriage.

[Guest]

Easy decision as far as demo vs rebub.

If you support abortion you are a democrat or should at least vote that way. I mean lets face it- the democratic party is all about abortion.

 

Everyone else- republican/ conservative.

no push- thats just the way it is.

 

It's posts like these that make it really difficult for non-Republicans/non-Conservatives to be members of the Church.

 

The Democratic Party is not all about abortion.  And besides - the LDS Church do allow abortion.  They're not Catholics.

[Latter Days Guy]

This has been an interesting thread, as I don't really know much about the political system in the US.  Here in the UK the Democrats and the Republicans are often seen as two sides of the same coin only with one being slightly more extreme than the other!  I've also hear them described as right wing and extremely right wing by some people I know.  I think that on the whole I would vote Democrat, I think Obama has been a pretty good president, I was reading in the UK press that he's been one of the most financially sound president for a long time.  Nobody it would seem liked president Bush much over here, though I have read his autobiography and found it a great read, giving a much fuller understanding of the why and what for behind his decision making.  The only other Republican I can think of by name is Sarah Palin and other than thinking she's quite attractive I don't really know what she stands for.

We're in the count down to a general election in the UK, and most people are very disillusioned with the two main political parties, there has been an upswing in the popularity of smaller parties of which I'm thinking of voting for one of them.  Would you say that was true in the US?  Are Americans getting disillusioned with the main parties?  Are there any alternatives to those parties, because if there are we never get to hear about them over here in the UK!

[Latter Days Guy]

It's posts like these that make it really difficult for non-Republicans/non-Conservatives to be members of the Church.

 

The Democratic Party is not all about abortion.  And besides - the LDS Church do allow abortion.  They're not Catholics.

 

I agree, you can be a member of something or vote for a party but not agree with every single policy they hold to.

[paracaidista508]

W

 

It's posts like these that make it really difficult for non-Republicans/non-Conservatives to be members of the Church.

 

The Democratic Party is not all about abortion.  And besides - the LDS Church do allow abortion.  They're not Catholics.

You may want to read the democratic party platform. Heres a quote:

Protecting A Woman's Right to Choose. The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman's decision to have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.

Link: http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform#greater-together

 

You are right...its not all about abortion, but this paragraph makes it very clear they wholeheartedly support it for whoever wants it.

Yes the church allows it in some very rare and extreme circumstances---not for general birth control though.

 

[Palerider]

This has been an interesting thread, as I don't really know much about the political system in the US.  Here in the UK the Democrats and the Republicans are often seen as two sides of the same coin only with one being slightly more extreme than the other!  I've also hear them described as right wing and extremely right wing by some people I know.  I think that on the whole I would vote Democrat, I think Obama has been a pretty good president, I was reading in the UK press that he's been one of the most financially sound president for a long time.  Nobody it would seem liked president Bush much over here, though I have read his autobiography and found it a great read, giving a much fuller understanding of the why and what for behind his decision making.  The only other Republican I can think of by name is Sarah Palin and other than thinking she's quite attractive I don't really know what she stands for.

We're in the count down to a general election in the UK, and most people are very disillusioned with the two main political parties, there has been an upswing in the popularity of smaller parties of which I'm thinking of voting for one of them.  Would you say that was true in the US?  Are Americans getting disillusioned with the main parties?  Are there any alternatives to those parties, because if there are we never get to hear about them over here in the UK!

It's going to take a lot for one of the smaller parties here to win a Presidential Election.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Capitalist, I don't understand this post.  I agree with you that when the Prophet/Apostles speak that's the end of the argument.  I just don't see how this applies to registering as a Democrat.  The Prophet/Apostles hasn't spoken that one should not register as a Democrat because they do not make laws to ban Abortion and Gay Marriage.

 

Maybe I didn't understand you correctly. I thought you were suggesting that democrats are honoring agency by opposing governmental restrictions on abortion and gay marriage. 

My response wasn't in regards to registering as a democrat; it was primarily in regards to the gay marriage issue. (Abortion is a lot more complicated).

As I said, my inclination is to always err on the side of agency hence I would normally not be in favor of the government prohibiting it. But since the prophet and apostles have made their feelings clear (they are opposed to legalizing it) and since I believe that when they agree in unison they are expressing the will of the Lord; I set my feelings aside and join with them in opposing it. 

Does that make a little more sense?

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Here in the UK the Democrats and the Republicans are often seen as two sides of the same coin...

 

Very wise, you Englanders. I'm impressed!!

 

"I think Obama has been a pretty good president."

 

Ohhhh, and there you had to go and ruin it! 

 

"Are Americans getting disillusioned with the main parties? Are there any alternatives to those parties, because if there are we never get to hear about them over here in the UK!"

 

I can't speak for all Americans but I know there are a great many of us who can't stand the donkeys or the elephants. And yes, there are alternatives, but they aren't really viable due to one primary reason. 

 

You see, many (most?) republicans, while they may be disillusioned with the party, KNOW  the democrats are MUCH worse. And they know that a vote for a 3rd party (the name we give to all those other alternatives) is a throw-away vote and will only help elect those miserable democrats.

On the other hand, many (most?) democrats, while they may be disillusioned with the party, KNOW the republicans are MUCH worse. And they know that a vote for a 3rd party is a throw-away vote and will only help elect those miserable republicans. 

So both sides go on electing either republicans or democrats each year because fear and loathing of the other party prevents them from doing anything else.