lagarthaaz Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Silly, extreme examples are okay. Silly and extreme are YOUR opinions that other people may not agree with. Maybe those examples really helped other people that aren't participating on this thread. Maybe it was an example that someone really needed to read. Good for Leah for expressing what she wished. It's 'silly and extreme' to be mindful of the varied needs of children in Primary? You can't be serious. No-one is suggesting that we don't teach about families or sing mommy or daddy songs - just that on occasion we may need to consider the circumstances of our children. Holy cow, this is 'dealing with children 101' - there is nothing controversial or difficult to understand about this concept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lagarthaaz Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I don't agree with your view on opinions. I think everyone has a right to their own opinion, whether or not they have experienced the same thing. I think no one has the right to declare that someone else does not have a right to their own opinion. You have a right to your opinion regardless of whether you can relate to something or not. I don't actually care if you agree with me or not - quite honestly. 'Say what you wanna say, yeah' as the song goes. I will clarify my comment to Jane, since you decided to comment on it. What I didn't express terribly well, was that people (especially those from relatively sheltered backgrounds) do find it hard to know what to say if I ever reveal my childhood experiences to them. For this reason, I don't talk about it much. I am ok with that discomfort, I get it, I understand it - and I'm also ok if anyone wants to tell me what they think. What I meant when I said that most people 'can't relate or have an opinion on' my experience, was that most people feel uncomfortable and don't know what to say - not that I don't think they can have an opinion. The wording came out wrong. Some people are also quite the opposite, they are interested and curious, and empathetic and loving. Either way I'm ok with what anyone has to say to me. The only reason I brought it up my experience on this thread was because of the comments I was reading that were directed to our sister here who has suffered hurt feelings from those who consider just the 99, to the exclusion of the one. For me, caring about 'the one' is a tenet of basic human kindness, of showing Christlike love and 'mourning with those who stand in need of comfort'. char713 and Treble.clef 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lagarthaaz Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) The problem with this thread is that we're only talking about "don't do this, don't teach this, don't sing this" because it hurts whoever... Nobody - especially those who are the "hurt" - is saying what SHOULD be done, taught, sung.So, I have a brilliant idea. Mother's Day is fast approaching. I strongly encourage those who are infertile, etc... let me call y'all out - char173, Eowyn, lagarthaaz, Mrs. TFP, who did I miss?.. to go approach your RS/YW Presidents and tell them you want to teach the lessons for the day. Then approach your Bishopric and tell them you want to plan out the "Recognition of Mothers" during Sacrament Meeting and even assign you a talk during Sacrament Meeting.I'm sure the ward could learn from y'all. Go.... bonus: Share with us here what you intend to do/teach/etc. That is something I would do if I felt there was a need. But as I stated at least a couple of times in this thread, I haven't seen the extremes of singling out mothers and women with no children in my ward. My local leaders weren't born and raised under a rock, and nor was I, so things are handled pretty well on Mother's and Father's Days where I live. We still have sacrament talks honoring those roles, we make cards for parents in Primary (and if there is no significant parent in their lives, we get the children to draw a picture for a man or woman who is important to them), and so on. I know that this is not the case for all wards - and obviously char has had to deal with some less than sensitive people on occasion. Edited March 21, 2015 by lagarthaaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 No-one is suggesting that we don't teach about families or sing mommy or daddy songs On the contrary, char suggested exactly that: It is not an uncertainty or possiblity that celebrating and exhalting the role of motherhood or fatherhood is hurtful to infertile couples. It is certain that it does. If celebrating and exalting the role of parenthood will certainly hurt infertile couples, of which by char's estimate there are several in every ward, then the obvious conclusion is that we should not celebrate parenthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treble.clef Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) lagarthaaz- have you talked to your Bishop and Primary President about your feelings regarding your primary? It might help you feel better. It could initiate a change for your primary kids. Maybe you and your fellow church leaders can come up with something to do for the kids that feel left out, unloved, etc. You could ask parents for suggestions too. Edited March 21, 2015 by Treble.clef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treble.clef Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 It's 'silly and extreme' to be mindful of the varied needs of children in Primary? You can't be serious. You were calling both mine and Leah's examples silly and extreme. What I am saying is, examples (in general) are okay, even if other people think they are silly, extreme, or whatnot. Vort 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) I just love when Mormons focus so much on being right rather than understand the obvious fact that people who are going through serious challenges in life speak through their pain. And heck yes, you are clueless about what char713 is going through, I know am completely clueless. As a mom of several children with special needs, I always get unwanted "opinions" "advice" from "experts" who don't have a clue about the things I go through on a daily basis. And yes, I wish you would just shut up to be honest because I could care less about your *ihavenocluebutihaveatongueandthatswhyitalk*"opinion". Char 713, to be honest I am speechless about some of the things I read on this thread. I can only say that I am sorry about the things you are going through, I have challenges of my own and I work on a daily basis with people who are going through a lot of pain in their lives. Do you have anyone to talk to? Like a therapist? Edited March 21, 2015 by Suzie lagarthaaz, Treble.clef, Bini and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lagarthaaz Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 lagarthaaz- have you talked to your Bishop and Primary President about your feelings regarding your primary? It might help you feel better. It could initiate a change for your primary kids. Maybe you and your fellow church leaders can come up with something to do for the kids that feel left out, unloved, etc. You could ask parents for suggestions too. My Primary is just fine - we love and care for the kids and take their individual circumstances into account as much as possible. Our bishop is mindful of the needs of the ward members. And the kids are wonderful and a lot of fun, I'd much rather hang out with them than adults on any day of the week Treble.clef 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lagarthaaz Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 On the contrary, char suggested exactly that: If celebrating and exalting the role of parenthood will certainly hurt infertile couples, of which by char's estimate there are several in every ward, then the obvious conclusion is that we should not celebrate parenthood. I didn't get that from char's comments at all. In fact, it seems to me that anyone struggling with infertility feels that way because they DO value parenthood, perhaps even more than most for whom parenthood has come easily or as a natural progression of life. She's simply asking for some understanding of her struggle, and some sensitivity in how the church approaches holidays like Mother's and Father's Day. That's not detracting from any major doctrines about the sanctity of family and parenthood, but rather it expands on the edict to 'love one another' and 'bear one another's burdens'. I do agree with her that we do not need to have entire blocks of church meetings devoted to 'mothers' or 'fathers' - the subject is amply covered in our regular church curriculum anyway. And regardless of what one's opinion is on the matter - adding to a person's pain when they have related deeply personal feelings of hurt about an issue like infertility is just not ok. Bini, Suzie and char713 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 This discussion actually strikes me as a good example of something that borders black and white and is a gray issue. Is it wrong to celebrate something good? No! It's good to celebrate something good. Is it wrong to compassionately avoid upsetting people? No! It is good to be compassionate.What happens if they come into conflict? lagarthaaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char713 Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) I thought I might finish up with one last response, but reading over all the most recent posts again it seems it make take me a couple of tries. Firstly. TFP, thank you for sharing your thoughts and I am sorry that you had such a prolonged struggle. My husband and I have been going through this for about seven years now. The most traumatic and stressful period of my life thus far, without a doubt. (And no, Omegaseamaster75, quite the contrary. I was wondering when/if other people with similar experience would come out and say so, statistically I knew there had to be at least a few.) TFP, I can't say I'm surprised that you weren't offended at all by Anatess' much earlier comment. It is easier to hear things like that from friends, and when you have heard them for as long as you probably have given your 18 years of difficulty. I am sorry if that is too great or rude of an assumption for me to make. My sister says the same kind of thing to me that Anatess did on a fairly regular basis, but because I know her and she knows me so well, it has never hurt and is usually one of the ways she lets me know she cares. But coming from a stranger, I rarely know what to say in response. I am usually just aghast that they had the nerve to suddenly give me any instruction (that I did not explicitly ask for) about how to deal with the private inner workings of my own body. (Or the emotional/social ramifications thereof.)Also, when have I ever said that the ideas themselves are hurtful? They usually aren't at all, they're usually coming from truth anyway. It is entirely about the delivery.. who, how, when, where, and why. You say you and your wife have never been persecuted, but that people have said insensitive things. And that you choose to forgive, which is great. But whatever you choose to do, the way you react to something insensitive said by another person, that choice does not modify the original act. Forgiveness helps you, and sometimes the other person to feel better. Doesn't change the fact that their comment was in fact an act of persecution, however minor or great. Since you (and others) seem to think I am hallucinating or fabricating things... here are a couple of the gems I have heard from church members in the past year: I visited my parent's ward at Christmastime last year, the ward that I lived in from age 16 until I married my husband. The people there know me fairly well, I had callings in Primary, Sunday School, and Relief Society once I graduated from Young Womens. I was one of 8 active laurels, a really great group. I hadn't been back to visit the ward in four years. So, at that time the Relief Society president had been in her calling for almost a year, and my mother is her first counselor. She greeted me warmly as most of the ward members did, and there were two other of the laurels I had graduated with who were there visiting their parents, with young children in tow. This sister, the RS president, walked with me to sunday school and on the way told me the following, (paraphrased slightly): "It's so great that you're visiting your mom, it's like you almost never left! (I said it had been a while, yes, but it was good to be back.) She said, "Well you know how Jamie and Elise (the two of my peers also visiting) both have kids, well we always thought you'd beat them to it, and you don't even have one? It's so disappointing to all of us, and your mom too, that you have let all of us down like that. You were raised right by your leaders in this ward and it hurts us that you've thrown that all away, and that you ignore Heavenly Father's commandment to have children. Please think about it, maybe a good new years resolution to consider!" And at this point we had arrived at Sunday School, she quickly pulled me in for a second hug and walked away quickly. No exaggerations here. I had to spend the next few minutes in the ladies room to compose myself. The second non-imagined experience was in the ward we are in now. We had only been there a few weeks, but I had been talkative enough in RS lessons and such for most of the sisters to know what my husband does for a living, what I do, and that we had been married for a few years. Every week before the lesson we have a "good news moment" where we share news and such... obvs. I raised my hand and asked if people might keep my husband in mind and in their prayers, that he was up for a big promotion at work. A sister who to this day I do not know her name, its possible she has since moved or is inactive, she tapped me on the shoulder and whispered. "My favorite church quote from President McKay is a great reminder, that no other success can compensate for failure in the home." It is possible that I misinterpreted her meaning, but how likely is it that I did? These are two of many similar comments and pieces of unsolicited advice, most of the others are too personal for me to share here. I am still working on forgiving both of these ladies. But I don't think I will ever be able to look back on these memories and convince myself that their words or their tone were kindly ment. The reality, char713, is that it is not the church's or the culture's responsibility to change because you are suffering. It is your responsibility to change. And that is true for every person who ever lives. It is our own responsibility to humble ourselves and to forgive and forget, to love and to serve, and to trust in the Lord and His kingdom and methods implicitly. God will take care of His church. Your job, as with all of us, is to forget yourself and go to work. And that is the only answer. Your agency, your salvation, your eternal reward, is up to you and you alone. People can be insensitive. People ARE insensitive. In response, we should smile, love, and serve them more. Focusing inwardly, being centered on self and individual trials and hurt is not what we are called to do. Judging other's instead of working to improve ourselves is exactly the wrong response to trials. Whatever trials we happen to face, we get up and we lift where we stand to the best of our ability, and we love others and do our best to uplift and help them. That is OUR responsibility individual, and we have no right to judge other's based on our interpretation of their failures. You are tending towards severe over-sensitivity. I suggest you stop worrying about others mourning with you and worry more about mourning with others -- and not just those who share in the same trial you do. And finally, I suppose I ought to be thanking you for the lesson in humility, self-sacrifice, obedience, and remembering baptismal covenants and all that. I guess if anyone here has the right to tell me to get over myself its someone who has been through something similar. Definitely not coming to you for emotional counseling though, but I'm sure you don't mind. Edited March 21, 2015 by char713 Treble.clef and lagarthaaz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char713 Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Anatess, my bishop and RS president are already aware (have been for some time) of my situation and my ideas. They're really on top of meeting planning so talks have long been assigned for that week, but I have been invited to give a "spiritual thought" kind of thing before the start of RS. We'll see what happens. A big "thank you" to Suzie, Eowyn, and Lagarthazz for their most recent posts. Yes, Suzie I have a great therapist who specializes in this sort of thing. Very interesting question, Crypto. I think this thread might be one answer, obviously not ideal. lagarthaaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I visited my parent's ward at Christmastime last year, the ward that I lived in from age 16 until I married my husband. The people there know me fairly well, I had callings in Primary, Sunday School, and Relief Society once I graduated from Young Womens. I was one of 8 active laurels, a really great group. I hadn't been back to visit the ward in four years. So, at that time the Relief Society president had been in her calling for almost a year, and my mother is her first counselor. She greeted me warmly as most of the ward members did, and there were two other of the laurels I had graduated with who were there visiting their parents, with young children in tow. This sister, the RS president, walked with me to sunday school and on the way told me the following, (paraphrased slightly): "It's so great that you're visiting your mom, it's like you almost never left! (I said it had been a while, yes, but it was good to be back.) She said, "Well you know how Jamie and Elise (the two of my peers also visiting) both have kids, well we always thought you'd beat them to it, and you don't even have one? It's so disappointing to all of us, and your mom too, that you have let all of us down like that. You were raised right by your leaders in this ward and it hurts us that you've thrown that all away, and that you ignore Heavenly Father's commandment to have children. Please think about it, maybe a good new years resolution to consider!" And at this point we had arrived at Sunday School, she quickly pulled me in for a second hug and walked away quickly. No exaggerations here. I had to spend the next few minutes in the ladies room to compose myself. Clearly this woman was out of line, but how could she know you struggled with fertility.....Even if you didn't struggle with it she was out of line, but we run into people like that everywhere. Dealing with those kinds of people is a part of life. The second non-imagined experience was in the ward we are in now. We had only been there a few weeks, but I had been talkative enough in RS lessons and such for most of the sisters to know what my husband does for a living, what I do, and that we had been married for a few years. Every week before the lesson we have a "good news moment" where we share news and such... obvs. I raised my hand and asked if people might keep my husband in mind and in their prayers, that he was up for a big promotion at work. A sister who to this day I do not know her name, its possible she has since moved or is inactive, she tapped me on the shoulder and whispered. "My favorite church quote from President McKay is a great reminder, that no other success can compensate for failure in the home." It is possible that I misinterpreted her meaning, but how likely is it that I did? You misinterpreted her meaning she wasn't attacking you for not having children. You don't know what her financial situation is, how could you? just like she couldn't know by looking at you that you have fertility issues how could she? No one likes a bragger, and your passive brag about your husband being up for a promotion might have struck a cord with her that really hurt so in typical woman fashion she took a jab at you, quite frankly you probably deserved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 No one likes a bragger, and your passive brag about your husband being up for a promotion might have struck a cord with her that really hurt so in typical woman fashion she took a jab at you, quite frankly you probably deserved it. Please explain how exactly asking sisters in the Church to pray for your husband because he is up for a promotion at work is bragging or passive brag as you call it and I am more interested in finding out why you thinks she deserved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Welcome to the forum, Char! And Suzie, you are spot on! Couldn't agree more with the whole I'm-not-in-your-shoes-but-I-can-tell-you-what-your-problem-is mentality. Just because you have an opinion, and you're free to spout that opinion off, doesn't make it automatically right to give it. Believe it or not, there are situations where one should sit down and shuddup. Now, if the other party asks for insight on their circumstances, that's a different story. But for goodness sake, when someone is dealing with a very personal and very difficult issue, and you have not been in their shoes, take just a minute to consider how or even IF to respond. Infertility is a devastating reality for so many and also embarrassing for so many. The very least someone can do who's looking from the outside in, is to be nice about it, and not a butt. I remember finally opening up and talking about bulimia, and nobody really understood what the heck I'd gone through, but would make ridiculous comments like "I had an eating disorder in high school my sophomore year and always skipped meals. Then I realised how unhealthy that was." SERIOUSLY? When you're battling an eating disorder, you don't just one day 'realise' that you're sick, in fact, you're in major denial that you are. In addition, skipping meals hardly sits in the same arena as a full blown ED (though it can start there). My body was so weak during those really rough times, I bruised easily, lost chunks of hair, and had even been hospitalised once. It's a plague that still takes a toll today but fortunately, with therapy and support, it is far far less serious. Suzie, lagarthaaz and char713 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Please explain how exactly asking sisters in the Church to pray for your husband because he is up for a promotion at work is bragging or passive brag as you call it and I am more interested in finding out why you thinks she deserved it. People do it all the time, mostly subconsciously it's extremely annoying: Passive bragging: Behavior characterized by a statement that insinuates one’s own awesomeness in an unassuming, detached or even self-deprecating manner - i.e. bragging while trying not to seem like you're bragging. AKA my super cool husband who works for "fill in the name of big time company" is up for a promotion. Please pray for him. Done during the "good news" moment in relief society. It's not good news because he hasn't gotten the promotion yet so why share it? If he did get it I still wouldn't share it unless someone specifically asked, and how would they know unless they were close family or friends.......so yeah total passive brag. We talk about being sensitive to others feelings, how do you think that the people who have husbands who are struggling with employment felt? Not only is my husband gainfully employed but we are looking at a promotion aka more $$. Suzie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 People do it all the time, mostly subconsciously it's extremely annoying: Passive bragging: Behavior characterized by a statement that insinuates one’s own awesomeness in an unassuming, detached or even self-deprecating manner - i.e. bragging while trying not to seem like you're bragging. Are you annoyed easily? I know what passing bragging is but thanks for taking the time to post the definition. Having said that, asking sisters to pray because your husband is up for a promotion( in my view) isn't bragging or passing bragging and in the end, is about intention. The fact that you told the poster that you think she probably deserves it (the jab/insult she got), means you assumed that kind of intention on her part when in reality and as far as I know (please, correct me if I am wrong), you do not know her personally (do you?) therefore assuming such a thing and reaching that sort of conclusion (and posting it) is unmerited. char713 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Are you annoyed easily? Not really but I can spot a passive brag when I see one. The fact that you told the poster that you think she probably deserves it (the jab/insult she got), means you assumed that kind of intention on her part when in reality and as far as I know (please, correct me if I am wrong), you do not know her personally (do you?) therefore assuming such a thing and reaching that sort of conclusion (and posting it) is unmerited.It's not unmerited it's a learning opportunity, take note she said in RS they were having a "good news" moment. Not a "I would like your help moment." So it was inappropriate to mention her husbands promotion at that time and place. Did Char deserve it I don't know was she aware of her passive bragging? Either way it struck a cord with at least one person. Most people are unaware of their passive bragging....and this ties in to the posts about insensitivity, Char couldn't possibly know about the economical circumstances of other individuals in that room, nor could they know about her infertility issues unless she told them. So the rule is be self aware, ease up on the passive bragging, and unless your asked keep your opinions to yourself. As far as the lady that responded to Char in the way that she did....cattiness she's a woman it's typical Edited March 21, 2015 by omegaseamaster75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 So. . . when char is insulted by someone, she's too sensitive and shouldn't assume ill intent, even when what was said to her is clearly rude, AND char should watch what she says and how she says it so she doesn't hurt anyone's feelings? Pick a side, man. cattiness she's a woman it's typical Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Are you annoyed easily? I know what passing bragging is but thanks for taking the time to post the definition. Having said that, asking sisters to pray because your husband is up for a promotion( in my view) isn't bragging or passing bragging and in the end, is about intention. The fact that you told the poster that you think she probably deserves it (the jab/insult she got), means you assumed that kind of intention on her part when in reality and as far as I know (please, correct me if I am wrong), you do not know her personally (do you?) therefore assuming such a thing and reaching that sort of conclusion (and posting it) is unmerited. If someone gets up and talks about mothers and the importance of having kids and a family... Are those who struggle with infertility and find the words and stories hard to hear... Annoyed so easily. If we can grant that maybe being more aware of the childless, (or fatherless or motherless) then why is is so hard to extend that consideration to the income/employment challenged? (Or just about any other struggle people might have) omegaseamaster75 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 So. . . when char is insulted by someone, she's too sensitive and shouldn't assume ill intent, even when what was said to her is clearly rude, AND char should watch what she says and how she says it so she doesn't hurt anyone's feelings? No she shouldn't assume that it relates directly to her infertility....because it probably didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Maybe you shouldn't assume she was bragging. . . because she wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 It is unmerited because you do not know her, therefore the assumption you are making could be completely erroneous. Why take the chance and post that she deserves it when you could be so wrong about her bragging? An unwise course of action in my view. As far as the lady that responded to Char in the way that she did....cattiness she's a woman it's typical Hmmm stereotyping much? Sounds very chauvinistic/sexist if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 If someone gets up and talks about mothers and the importance of having kids and a family... Are those who struggle with infertility and find the words and stories hard to hear... Annoyed so easily. If we can grant that maybe being more aware of the childless, (or fatherless or motherless) then why is is so hard to extend that consideration to the income/employment challenged? (Or just about any other struggle people might have) I am not arguing we shouldn't. We should all extend consideration to everyone. My point was about the assumption that Char bragged and that she deserved the jab she got. Unmerited and uncalled for, in my view. Unless we know Char or we were there, none of us can know if she was bragging therefore since we are all clueless about it, why not do as grandma used to say when we were kids "If you don't have anything nice to say...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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