Mental Health and Worthiness

[Vort]

I have - and there is no way I would ever deliberately do that again just because I want to blunder along in my own sense of self-righteousness that this will somehow teach them a better way.

"Blunder along in my own sense of self-righteousness", huh? Boy, I guess you got me pegged. Congrats!

 

Time for some Zeppelin.

[Treble.clef]

I know it sounds like those that don't have their own biological children are acting as "substitute mothers" for other children and it's not really comparable to being the mother of their own children... but they are very important to a young child's life.

 

I agree. How often do kids look up to an elementary or primary school teacher, regardless of whether she may have her own biological children? One of the best mothers I know could not have biological children so she adopted. She is as much a mother as anyone with biological children! Her children were also sealed to her in the temple. They are her children.

 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Treble.clef

[omegaseamaster75]

I have no issue with the importance and sacredness of motherhood being taught at church, when addressing whole groups. My problem is when people take those teachings - which are correct - and use them to belittle and hurt those who are not able to participate in that thing which is so desireable and necessary. I am thinking of several ward leaders in the three wards that my husband and I have lived in during our marriage, and many more members besides. Mothers' Day throws all of those things into sharper relief, creating opportunities for childless women feel even more lost and forgotten than they already do.  The worst of it is when the ward observes those little traditions, such as having all the mothers stand after the close of Sacrament meeting to receive a gift. Those are an awful few minutes for all non-mothers, but it usually doesn't stop there... the second and third hour meetings are often kept on the same theme. I think it is possible to show appreciation for the mothers in our lives and wards without making it about individuals. Talks, prayers, a statement from whichever Bishopric member is presiding, all these are fine by me. If a mother is not recognized properly by her husband and children at home on that day, I am sorry. But it is their job, not the ward's.

I'm calling you out on this, I have never been in a ward and I have been in many wards where mothers specifically were singled out, as previously posted ALL women over the age of 18 are asked to stand and get a small token or gift.

 

Your heightened sense of self pity however probably only allows you to see what you want to see.

[omegaseamaster75]

Do you honestly believe that it's ok to sing certain songs regardless of what the background of the Primary children might be?  Have you ever watched the face of a fatherless, fostered or abused child crumple up in hurt when certain lyrics are sung in Primary? I have - and there is no way I would ever deliberately do that again just because I want to blunder along in my own sense of self-righteousness that this will somehow teach them a better way. 

 

There are far kinder ways to teach the sacred concept of families. In fact, Primary materials from the church do tell us to be 'sensitive to the needs' of children who are in non-traditional family environments. 

Yes it's OK to sing the songs.....they are just songs. I am real sorry that little johnny feels bad because his daddy never comes home, but if we start catering to the minority we will run out of primary songs to sing.

[Treble.clef]

I'm calling you out on this, I have never been in a ward and I have been in many wards where mothers specifically were singled out, as previously posted ALL women over the age of 18 are asked to stand and get a small token or gift.

 

Your heightened sense of self pity however probably only allows you to see what you want to see.

 Ouch

[Treble.clef]

Do you honestly believe that it's ok to sing certain songs regardless of what the background of the Primary children might be?  Have you ever watched the face of a fatherless, fostered or abused child crumple up in hurt when certain lyrics are sung in Primary? I have - and there is no way I would ever deliberately do that again just because I want to blunder along in my own sense of self-righteousness that this will somehow teach them a better way. 

 

There are far kinder ways to teach the sacred concept of families. In fact, Primary materials from the church do tell us to be 'sensitive to the needs' of children who are in non-traditional family environments. 

 

I do think it is okay to sing primary songs regardless of what the background might be. I think it is good to be sensitive but we each have to draw the line for ourselves. Should the children with fathers miss out because other children are fatherless, fostered, or abused? It is a question of do you cater to the majority or minority? How could both be catered to? I don't know the answer to that. I know the following aren't near as common and not the best examples. I will say them anyways though- should we stop praying in sacrament because some people may be deaf? Should we stop eating bread at sacrament because some people can't eat anything by mouth? There are interpreters for the deaf though. Would it be possible to have some sort of "interpreter" figure work for children in broken homes regarding primary songs? I don't know. What I do know is I trust the Prophet and the apostles to receive revelation at the right time if changes need to be made. Maybe it is a problem that will initiate change in the future. Until then, I will encourage my children to belt out those primary songs that warm my heart!

[Jane_Doe]

I am cringing just reading that. Any ward I've been to on Mothers Day gives a gift to ALL women over 18, be it a flower posy or small crafted item. The message is to honor ALL women as having the potential to be mothers, even if they aren't right now.  We should be sensitive to the feelings of women who don't have children, just as we should be to those people who don't have spouses in the church, or the many little children who live with only one parent or who are in foster care. A little forethought in planning these events never hurt anyone. 

 

I understand how you feel on some level, although I'm coming at it from a different perspective to you.  When I hear those stories about fathers and mothers, I rejoice to hear about the love people have had from their mothers (and their fathers), but my feelings are always tinged with a feeling of loss as I never had parents who cared for me. My father left my teenage mother when she was pregnant, and my mother became a welfare statistic (five more children to different fathers came after me). She was an alcoholic, prescription drug addict, and violent person who exposed me to sexual behaviors no child should ever see (no, you could not make this up).  She once tried to suffocate me with a pillow as I slept, woke me another time with punches to my head while I was sleeping, threw a hammer at me and generally made it clear she hated my guts from the day I was born. When I did go searching for my biological father years later, I hoped to find some kind of 'normal' in my background, but instead I found a washed up former professional boxer who became a violent criminal and who had spent more time in jail than out of it. You name the crime, he did it - including shooting his first wife. At least he was honest with me about it when we did finally speak.  All of that is the Reader's Digest version, but you can imagine there is a bit of a void in my head when talks are given in church about expressing gratitude for being raised by loving mothers and fathers. I understand the sentiment and am happy for others, but I have never had the experience of being nurtured by loving parents.

 

Does that mean I think sacrament talks about parents shouldn't be given or that Mother's/Father's Days shouldn't be honored at church? Not at all. In fact, those ideals and experiences gave me hope for a better way of life. It was just those kinds of testimonies and the teachings in church on the subject of families and parenting, that provided me with guidance and examples about how I could raise my own children. 

 

Having said that, I do believe we can honor Mother's Day sensitively at church. Speak on the divine role of mothers for sure, but to get the mothers in the congregation to stand up and be honored over women who are desperate for, but don't have children? No way. 

 

I hope Mother's Day is better for you this year and the organizers of Mothers Day in your ward try to be a bit more empathetic to the needs of women like yourself who are in the congregation.  Maybe you could get involved yourself and make some suggestions?  They probably don't even realize that their lovely intentions my inadvertently cause hurt feelings. 

 

I'm sorry you had to go through this Lagathaaz.  

 

I have a friend who's a convert to the church, and likewise has a poor example of a father.  Because of this background, she struggles relating to a "Heavenly Father" as someone whom would remotely care about her (because her earthly dad sure doesn't).  I once heard a sermon about this type of thing:

 

"If you look at your earthly father, and try to extrapolate what God is like from that, you're doing it wrong.  God is the original Father.  All measures of earthly fathers are reflections of Him: of what a father should be (and fall short of)."  (I would then extrapolate this to Mother's as well).

 

(I know these are small words from a stranger on the internet who's never been through the things you've been through, and I know that no little words will make your pain better, but I hope that maybe they will help a tiny amount).

[mordorbund]

I taught the Eternal Marriage lesson in Sunday School (D&C 132). These are the notes for my introduction:

 

 

The 2008 worldwide leadership training, “Building up a righteous posterity”, was a follow-up to the 2006 “Supporting the Family” training. Elder Holland shared the following remarks on those themes:

 

“Now, I hope this helps you understand why we talk about the pattern, the ideal, of marriage and family when we know full well that not everyone now lives in that ideal circumstance. It is precisely because many don’t have, or perhaps have never even seen, that ideal and because some cultural forces steadily move us away from that ideal, that we speak about what our Father in Heaven wishes for us in His eternal plan for His children. 

 

“Individual adaptations have to be made as marital status and family circumstances differ. But all of us can agree on the pattern as it comes from God, and we can strive for its realization the best way we can.”

[char713]

I'm calling you out on this, I have never been in a ward and I have been in many wards where mothers specifically were singled out, as previously posted ALL women over the age of 18 are asked to stand and get a small token or gift.

 

Your heightened sense of self pity however probably only allows you to see what you want to see.

 

I'd be happy to share the street addresses and ward names, but of course there is no real proof I can offer. The first time it happened was several months before I found out that I might never bear children. The bishopric in our ward had recently changed, and the Bishop introduced the change by saying he wanted to "be more specific" in his recognition of the congregation throughout the year. He then led the congregation in a sort of game, having different "levels" of mother stand, first the new mothers, then ones with more than two children, then mothers of five or more. Then had different groups sit down until the oldest and youngest mother in the ward were left standing, and they both recieved roses. Father's Day was unusual that year in that the men are not, I think, usually recognized much at all but that time he had them stand too and receive cards made by the primary. Most recently it was in the ward we are in now, the children gave out candy leis (sp?) to every female but only the mothers were invited to stand. I remember it happening also a couple of times during my childhood/youth, but those were in military branches overseas. Those I remember because my aunt who has struggled with fertility issues was the person we were visiting, and we were there during that time of year on purpose. 

 

I'm guessing you are the kind of person who thinks that clinical depression is mostly self-inflicted, that its victims are selfish, lazy wallowers? You clearly have no patience for any degree of "self-pity" as you seem to think my problem with it to be much larger than it is. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by char713

[char713]

I do think it is okay to sing primary songs regardless of what the background might be. I think it is good to be sensitive but we each have to draw the line for ourselves. Should the children with fathers miss out because other children are fatherless, fostered, or abused? It is a question of do you cater to the majority or minority? How could both be catered to? I don't know the answer to that. I know the following aren't near as common and not the best examples. I will say them anyways though- should we stop praying in sacrament because some people may be deaf? Should we stop eating bread at sacrament because some people can't eat anything by mouth? There are interpreters for the deaf though. Would it be possible to have some sort of "interpreter" figure work for children in broken homes regarding primary songs? I don't know. What I do know is I trust the Prophet and the apostles to receive revelation at the right time if changes need to be made. Maybe it is a problem that will initiate change in the future. Until then, I will encourage my children to belt out those primary songs that warm my heart!

 

I agree that is is difficult to draw the line, to comfort all who are in pain equally. What matters is the attitude behind whatever choices leaders and teachers do make. If they are conscientious of the 9 AND the 1, they will find a way to approach both interests equally. If they more are more like Vort, and others, however, who think that the 9 are the ones who deserve the most attention and consideration because things are going right for them, and they are the best examples of living the gospel to the letter, then the problems stated throughout this thread will only perpetuate. Thoughts come before actions, therefore thoughts are what will make the most difference in how we serve one another. 

[Jane_Doe]

I think that we all need to recognize the triumphs and challenges people go through.  

 

To Christ like: If "Mike" triumphs in an area, then all should people should celebrate with "Mike", including "Steve" who may struggle in that area.  By a similar token, triumphant "Mike" should be there for struggling "Steve".  

 

Being Christ-like includes rejoicing with those that rejoice, and mourning with those that mourn, no matter what the trails may be.

[Irishcolleen]

Job had 3 so called friends who at first sat with him and mourned.  Then his friends became irritated at his unwillingness to move on, even though he lost his children, livelihood and health in a sudden and traumatic way.  These "friends" went on to suggest that Job had caused his own problems- even accusing him of great sin even though the Lord described Job as righteous. Job's response was that they were miserable comforters. And God's response to the "friends" was harsh-  saying His wrath was kindled against them.

 

We need to be careful how we treat those who are suffering or mourning.  There is a time to just listen, cry with, and empathize with, and pray for those who are burdened by sorrow and disappointment.  Probable the best response to the dear sister suffering from infertility would have been simply to say that you were sorry she has to experience that and offer to pray that she will see God's peace and provision even through sorrow.

[omegaseamaster75]

I'd be happy to share the street addresses and ward names, but of course there is no real proof I can offer. The first time it happened was several months before I found out that I might never bear children. The bishopric in our ward had recently changed, and the Bishop introduced the change by saying he wanted to "be more specific" in his recognition of the congregation throughout the year. He then led the congregation in a sort of game, having different "levels" of mother stand, first the new mothers, then ones with more than two children, then mothers of five or more. Then had different groups sit down until the oldest and youngest mother in the ward were left standing, and they both recieved roses. Father's Day was unusual that year in that the men are not, I think, usually recognized much at all but that time he had them stand too and receive cards made by the primary. Most recently it was in the ward we are in now, the children gave out candy leis (sp?) to every female but only the mothers were invited to stand. I remember it happening also a couple of times during my childhood/youth, but those were in military branches overseas. Those I remember because my aunt who has struggled with fertility issues was the person we were visiting, and we were there during that time of year on purpose. 

 

I'm guessing you are the kind of person who thinks that clinical depression is mostly self-inflicted, that its victims are selfish, lazy wallowers? You clearly have no patience for any degree of "self-pity" as you seem to think my problem with it to be much larger than it is. 

 

First what you are describing is the exception not the rule, poor leadership by that bishop and poor usage of sacrament meeting time.

 

Second WE ALL HAVE ISSUES!!!!

 

All of us, how presumptuous is it to think that your problems are greater than my problems? We can't cater to everyone or everything, its impossible....so the majority get the nod

[char713]

First what you are describing is the exception not the rule, poor leadership by that bishop and poor usage of sacrament meeting time.

 

Second WE ALL HAVE ISSUES!!!!

 

All of us, how presumptuous is it to think that your problems are greater than my problems? We can't cater to everyone or everything, its impossible....so the majority get the nod

 

What? I never said it was the rule, that my experience must be also what everyone else has experienced. How could anyone honestly suggest such a thing? I never did. It was YOU who called me out, said I was probably making it all up because of my inability to see straight, through my own pathetic self-pity. 

 

Yes, we all have issues. Some issues were chosen, some were not. Some are much more apparent than others. Some only affect the victim for a short season, others for the their whole lives. Some make an impact on the group, others are private. We can only call ourselves Christlike if we are trying to help everyone work through their issues, whether we have the knowledge or insight to know the details or not. The main way you help those who are suffering in silence is to be empathetic and cautious. In public or to large groups, you teach the truth as it is found in the gospel and champion those in the scriptures who have shown us the way to follow. You give testimony based on experiences of the ways you have seen those scriptural qualities reflected in your own personal heroes lives. Those things apply to everyone, regardless of their circumstance, because they reflect eternal truths that are necessary for the happiness and exhaltation of all. 

[Vort]

If they are conscientious of the 9 AND the 1, they will find a way to approach both interests equally. If they more are more like Vort, and others, however,

TFP, Mordorbund, Pam, any other pretenders: Read it and weep.

[omegaseamaster75]

you said "My problem is when people take those teachings - which are correct - and use them to belittle and hurt those who are not able to participate in that thing which is so desireable and necessary. I am thinking of several ward leaders in the three wards that my husband and I have lived in during our marriage, and many more members besides."

 

I called you out because I find it hard to believe that in all of the wards you have been in they followed this strange practice on mothers day that you described. I am also calling you out your leaders in your own words "belittle and hurt".

 

Perception and I'll quote you again, albeit out of context " I was probably making it all up because of my inability to see straight, through my own pathetic self-pity"

[lagarthaaz]

Yes it's OK to sing the songs.....they are just songs. I am real sorry that little johnny feels bad because his daddy never comes home, but if we start catering to the minority we will run out of primary songs to sing.

 

As someone who has served in Primary for many years,  I'm grateful for those really do care about 'little johnny' who has no father, and who sensitively approach their callings with love and compassion for the children. I can also tell you there are more than enough songs to sing. 

[char713]

I called you out because I find it hard to believe that in all of the wards you have been in they followed this strange practice on mothers day that you described. I am also calling you out your leaders in your own words "belittle and hurt".

 

Perception and I'll quote you again, albeit out of context " I was probably making it all up because of my inability to see straight, through my own pathetic self-pity"

 

Did I say "all of the wards" or did I say the three wards I've lived in as a married person? My family moved around a great deal when I was growing up, were members of 11 different wards in 8 different states and countries before I was 17. And you haven't asked me to go into details about leaders and members who have belittled and hurt me, not only me in fact but also my husband and my mother over this subject. I certainly can, I remember most of what was said at the worst times. But that's quite a bit more negativity than I would prefer to heap upon everyone here. 

 

.. But reading over your comments in this thread again, I'm beginning to suspect you are just interested in contention. I don't know what it is you have against me, or against a few of the other people you've been addressing in other threads. Perhaps you could tell me.

[omegaseamaster75]

I have sympathy for your problems I really do.

 

Please do not expect others to know or be educated about your issue. How could they know? do you wear a sign that says "infertile". Should they be on pins and needles when you are in the room because you might be offended? should they change the way that mothers day is celebrated to accommodate your sensitivities?

 

My problem is the woo is me attitude that we hear. Life is hard, we all have things to deal with...some people think that their burden is heavier than an others because of whatever..... reason, pick your hardship. I assure you that this is not the case.

[char713]

TFP, Mordorbund, Pam, any other pretenders: Read it and weep.

 

You only highlighted the phrases "if they are conscientious," and "if they are more like Vort." So forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption here, but it looks like you took it out of context. You have stated, in this thread and others (while maybe in not so few words) that your perspective is that the 9 are the first who should be thought of, and that the 1 will somehow be taken care of otherwise, or else will just learn to deal and ought not feel ignored or hurt. The phrase I used was "if they are conscientous of the 9 AND the 1, they will find a way to approach both interests equally." Are you saying now that your perspective is the opposite of what you have been leading myself (and others) to believe? That the church is for the individual, rather than the individual for the church?

 

Also, I am not presently remembering comments made by the other people you mentioned in that last post. I do remember Mordorbund's comment as it is conveniently on this very page. That comment was in reference to the way the church doctrine and policy addresses those members who are living in less than ideal circumstances. It also said that individual adaptations have to be made. That is what I am talking about. The gospel is true for everyone, whether they are experiencing every facet of it right now in their own lives or not. What we teach from the pulpits and in our homes has to be centered on that, I do not dispute it. But individual adaptation in my case would be not asking to be placed in a calling in Nursery or young Primary, avoiding church attendance on Mothers' Day in the future, and keeping my mouth shut in lessons in RS about motherhood since others get prickly about non-mothers giving insight about such things (again.. in my experience). 

[Backroads]

Backroads' thoughts.

On infertility: never personally dealt with it. Don't even know what to say about it. And I think therein lies the problem, people want to say something to fix the problem and I doubt there is anything to fit that bill. This leaves a person feeling helpless to ease another's burdens and we Mormons don't like that feeling. I've seen lists of what not to say but few on what to say. It seems we're dealing with a tender and fragile situation on all sides.

Mother's Day: I've only seen wards celebrate all women. My home ward stopped giving stuff out and just announced what was being done with the money that would have bought trinkets (still honored women).

Primary songs: there's a lot of them. If a few are awkward for a given group, don't sing them.

[char713]

I have sympathy for your problems I really do.

 

Please do not expect others to know or be educated about your issue. How could they know? do you wear a sign that says "infertile". Should they be on pins and needles when you are in the room because you might be offended? should they change the way that mothers day is celebrated to accommodate your sensitivities?

 

My problem is the woo is me attitude that we hear. Life is hard, we all have things to deal with...some people think that their burden is heavier than an others because of whatever..... reason, pick your hardship. I assure you that this is not the case.

 

I don't expect everyone to know. I wouldn't have a single friend if I did hold everyone I met up to that impossible standard. The people I have been talking about all this time are those who do know, because I do tell my Bishops and RS Presidents and VT companions (when I have them) my situation, as early as I can once we meet because it matters that much to me and in their positions, it is kind of their job to know. The hurts that happen, the ones I have spoken of, always happen after I have told them this about myself. Whether the things they said were just uninformed and well-intentioned, or thoughtless, or actually intended to hurt my feelings I usually don't know. 

 

Also, I feel the need to stress again that it is not just MY sensitivities that are being upset by the extra things (outside of words from the pulpit in Sacrament or the Primary children singing to their moms) that happen in church on Mothers' Day. It is not even just LDS women who feel this way. I haven't taken a poll or anything, but given how many forums, facebook groups, and in-person support groups that I am involved with, I'd say it is fair to assume that MOST women who have struggled or who are struggling with infertility or child loss have negative feelings about the matter. 

 

I have never said that I think my trials are greater than anyone elses. There's that saying that if we all threw our struggles into a pile and could see everyone else's, we would quickly take ours back. I try to trust that that is true. 

[Just_A_Guy]

As someone who has served in Primary for many years,  I'm grateful for those really do care about 'little johnny' who has no father, and who sensitively approach their callings with love and compassion for the children. I can also tell you there are more than enough songs to sing.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere. I wouldn't necessarily have primary kids sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home" if I know one of the kids' parents have separated in the past few months; and possibly not under any circumstances if I knew one of the kids had been--say--sexually abused by their father.

On the other hand, kids from nontraditional families are, at some point, just going to have to grapple with the fact that some other kids were luckier than they. Primaries consisting of 50+ kids can't walk on eggshells in perpetuity because of one child's prolonged failure to confront that reality. I believe it does ultimately fall back on the child's caregiver to ensure that proper coping mechanisms are being utilized.

[char713]

On infertility: never personally dealt with it. Don't even know what to say about it. And I think therein lies the problem, people want to say something to fix the problem and I doubt there is anything to fit that bill. This leaves a person feeling helpless to ease another's burdens and we Mormons don't like that feeling. I've seen lists of what not to say but few on what to say. It seems we're dealing with a tender and fragile situation on all sides.

 

I completely get what you are saying, and thank you for saying it. My mother has told me that she hates that she can't give me an easy solution. She says that "it eats at her" that she can do no more for my infertility, than for my little brother and his type 1 diabetes. There ought to be more lists on what to say. Everyone has things they wish they could hear their spouse, BFF, sibling, etc say. What I think is universally wished for is the opportunity to be listened to without judgement, so they can talk about this huge thing in their lives without needing to feel so guarded.

 

Personally, I crave candor. I wish that the people in my life would tell me if they are confused or concerned, and ask questions. In fact, even if they really have no interest I would prefer to be told that up front so that neither of us waste energy over-sharing or avoiding the topic. Where and when you have this discussion, and with what attitude are the most important things. As long as it is approached lovingly, not just in tone, but you actually express first that you love them and want them to feel safe talking to you, the rest I am sure would go smoothly. Problems arise when people make comments out of the blue, and with a prying or sometimes even accusatory tone. Worst of all if it is in public, between meetings at church or any other time when they do not have the mental capacity or emotional breathing room to craft a response, and hear from you in return. 

[Vort]

Personally, I crave candor.

Um, <ahem> well, maybe not always...