Wayne May — Book of Mormon Archaeology in North America

[Traveler]

1. I assume you mean “Hagoth” rather than “Hagar”.

2. What evidence is there that Hagoth had to be a Nephite? There were probably hundreds of thousands of full blooded Lamanites living among the Nephites by 55 B.C. Who knows, perhaps Hagoth was one of them?

 

P.S. I agree with you regarding the Jaradites. 

 Sorry about Hagar and my Viking background.

 

I have long felt we should drop the Lamanite handle for Lehights - but then that is even a little problematic because the Mulekites were Jews and not of the house of Joseph.

[Vort]

We call the surviving Lehite remnant "Lamanites" because the Book of Mormon calls them that. There are great promises made to the Lamanites, so despite the bad rep the term may have from Book of Mormon usage, the Book of Mormon itself makes crystal clear that the Lamanites will be blessed and prospered enormously. If I were of aboriginal American ancestry, I think that I would very proudly call myself a Lamanite.

[rameumptom]

After years of looking at the evidence, I'm convinced that the central story of the Book of Mormon occurred in Mesoamerica.  There are several key things missing for it to have happened in North America (not to mention it pushes millions of Jaredites up into Canada). 

That said, I'm convinced that Hagoth and others traveled northwards and elsewhere and affected the peoples already there.  Having studied Incan stories, I know there is a connection.  However, I do not see enough internal BoM requirements present to believe that the Nephites lived in the Andes or Brazil.  More likely one of the following two things occurred: 1) there were other Israelites that came over, and/or 2) Nephite traders and travelers intermingled with other groups.

[rameumptom]

Must making sure - are you saying that an attitude of discovery and quest for truth for the sake of truth is actually not important?  Or are you suggesting only the truth you personally care about is actually important?

 

I think he was saying that different truths are of varying levels of importance.  Truths can also be interpreted differently. Are we interpreting what the BoM says from our own perspective, or from the perspective of Nephi or Joseph Smith? Or God?  World views differ depending on how a person defines her world.

 

For me, Zion and "Promised Land" are all of North and South America, because that is what Joseph Smith told us. 

[mrmarklin]

I tend to agree that the promised land(s) are the American continents.

While touring the ruins of Tiwanaku in Bolivia about 10 years ago with a member of the church, that person stated that he heard that Spencer Kimball (while traveling in Boliviia) said that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in part in Bolivia.

I agree that MesoAmerica is a very likely location, since they of all the native peoples had writing. I consider that fairly indicative. But then there are other problems with the location..

[rameumptom]

As for modern day "Promised Land", we need look no further than the stakes of Zion.  The stakes of Zion and temples are intimately connected, Zion prepares the people to enter into the presence of the Lord, which occurs symbolically (and sometimes literally) in the temple.

 

The BoM noted that those cast out of the Promised Land were "cut off from the Presence of the Lord".  Yet, the Nephite Promised Land changed at least 3 times, from Lehi's first landing, to the Land of Nephi, to Zarahemla.  The Jaredite Promised Land was further north, and for the Nephites was considered the Land of Desolation, not the Land of Promise.  So the Promised Land can be a moving/shifting thing, fully dependent upon whether the people are righteous.

 

Joseph Smith stated that Zion is all of North and South America.  I would add that Zion is wherever there is a stake of Zion, whether in Utah, Missouri, Bolivia (where I served my mission), Japan, or Africa.  BTW, Spencer Kimball DID say that Bolivia was in the center of the BoM lands - but he was sharing his opinion as one who believed in the Hemispheric Model for the Book of Mormon.

[Grunt]

Just to resurrect an old thread, I've been watching his videos the last few days.  Very interesting.

[Rob Osborn]

On 5/17/2015 at 3:03 PM, mrmarklin said:

The problem for any north American model, including Meso-America, is that if we accept the Joseph Smith statement in Teachings that Lehi landed near Valpariso, Chile is how did the Nephites etc get to North America?

The strait of Darien (Panama) has always been impassible. There's no way a major population could have migrated north.

I'm a fan of South America as a base for the BofM activities. Certainly high civilizations lived there.

Of course the problem with that is how did the plates get to NY?

Maybe a small group of surviving Nephites could have gone that far.

I believe that Panama is the key to it all. It meets all the requirements for the narrow neck. Its impassability also made it a natural barrier for why the Jaredites were hedged up for hundreds of years by the poisonous snakes and also why they never migrated their population into South America. In Nephite times the reason why Hagoth built ships was to bypass the impassable jungles in Colombia and Panama to get into the land northward (North America). It appears though that eventually they made paths through the jungle for on foot journeys as attempts were obviously made-

23 And now he did not tarry in the land of Zarahemla, but he did march forth with a large army, even towards the city of Bountiful; for it was his determination to go forth and cut his way through with the sword, that he might obtain the north parts of the land (Helaman 1:23)