Must LBGT freedom be pitted against religious liberty?

[prisonchaplain]

America was founded, and is united, by our dedication to freedom. Pilgrim's fled religious persecution, and sought a society in which they could worship God according to the dictate's of their conscience. Today some argue freedom of religion is too costly. They say it hurts other groups, and allows hatred and bigotry. Too many Americans shed blood, for us to give in to such division. God sent Jesus to free us from sin--to set captives free. Those who would attempt to suppress faith in their name of their own freedom fall for Satan's ruse. "Take the fruit and you will be like God, knowing good from evil."

[Average Joe]

We live in the times when men call good evil and call evil good, It may seem more pronounced in our time but the war in heaven didn't cease - its right here.

[bytor2112]

LGBT freedom will be pitted against religion that still refers to their lifestyle as sin.....except of course Islam. Christianity will be seen as acceptable once it conforms to the image of the world and the liberal agenda.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Those who would attempt to suppress faith in their name of their own freedom fall for Satan's ruse. "Take the fruit and you will be like God, knowing good from evil."

 

I’m not trying to throw cold water on your sentiment, Chaplin, because I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.

I just want to address the last sentence in your post. 

 

Satan's pronouncement to Eve that "Ye shall not surely die” was obviously a lie, but his pronouncement that "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" can hardly be described as a ruse. According to God Himself, in verse 22, that is precisely what took place.

 

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…"

 

Just thought I'd point this out.

[prisonchaplain]

Capitalist, of course humanity came to know evil, because now we'd done it.  Of greater concern is the whole "being like God" part.  Despite the doctrine of exaltation, no LDS or Evangelical argues that our coming into godlikeness is to happen in this lifetime.  Yet, those who supress religion and faith, in the name of human rights, do just that.  They, believing they know good from evil, declare God unnecessary, and his followers being that need to be contained. 

[rameumptom]

Satan's purpose is to have us believe we are gods without needing God. When he said, "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil", he was stating a lie. We become as God, knowing good and evil, through Jesus Christ.  Today, as in other wicked periods of the past, people chose to be gods unto themselves, not necessarily knowing good and evil, but declaring what will be good and/or evil.

 

There will be a clash, simply because LGBT has, for many, become a religion.  Just as there are continual tensions between radical Islam and Christianity, so there is between radical LGBT and Christianity. As the radical Islamists seek to establish a global caliphate, so do the radical among the LGBT. And while the majority of these groups may be kind, generous, and patient with Christianity, the loud and aggressive ones are the ones pushing much of the agenda for the entire group.

[David13]

It shouldn't be pitted against religious liberty, but it appears that's what the pervert agenda is.  Accept the pervert agenda, or loose your religious liberty.

dc

[Laniston]

If an innumerable host of liberal phillistines, ammonites, edomites, etc is threatening to beat down my door and rob me of my religious freedom and all I have to defend myself is a stoneware jug and a flashlight, then the odds are stacked in my favour. 

[rameumptom]

But only if you are MacGyver....

[Blackmarch]

America was founded, and is united, by our dedication to freedom. Pilgrim's fled religious persecution, and sought a society in which they could worship God according to the dictate's of their conscience. Today some argue freedom of religion is too costly. They say it hurts other groups, and allows hatred and bigotry. Too many Americans shed blood, for us to give in to such division. God sent Jesus to free us from sin--to set captives free. Those who would attempt to suppress faith in their name of their own freedom fall for Satan's ruse. "Take the fruit and you will be like God, knowing good from evil."

 "take the fruit, for there is no God" or" if there is a God, he's said you are free to do so, and he loves you so no harm will happen to you", or "God gave you this fruit didn't he?"

the charms of the world will always be pitted against godliness. It was a problem in ancient israel, it was problem in israel later on, it was also a problem in ancient america.

The devil will always make Gods law and will to appear selfish, constrictive, and unpopular.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

It shouldn't be pitted against religious liberty, but it appears that's what the pervert agenda is.  Accept the pervert agenda, or loose your religious liberty.

dc

 

I don't think it costs conservatives and orthodox Mormons very much, to dispense with terms like "pervert" in these discussions.

 

That said, I think your substantive point is accurate:  Religious freedom cannot coexist with lbgt freedom, because nearly all advocates of the latter (and, probably, a critical mass of advocates of the former) simply do not want it to.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Capitalist, of course humanity came to know evil, because now we'd done it.  Of greater concern is the whole "being like God" part.  Despite the doctrine of exaltation, no LDS or Evangelical argues that our coming into godlikeness is to happen in this lifetime.  Yet, those who supress religion and faith, in the name of human rights, do just that.  They, believing they know good from evil, declare God unnecessary, and his followers being that need to be contained. 

 

I understand your meaning.

Thanks.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Satan's purpose is to have us believe we are gods without needing God. When he said, "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil", he was stating a lie.

 

The scripture ("And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...") is unambiguous. 

In addition, there are several Church manuals which expressly state that only half of Satan's claim (you shall not surely die) was a lie; the other half (ye shall be as the Gods, knowing good and evil) was true.

 

I stand by my statement.

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe I'm missing an underlying discussion.  We are like God in many ways.  One of them, thanks to Adam and Eve, is that we know good from evil.  Is this the point of discussion, ore is there disagreement over how strongly the verse ties to the doctrine of exaltation?

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think it costs conservatives and orthodox Mormons very much, to dispense with terms like "pervert" in these discussions.

 

It's an interesting thought. Is it true? Does it cost nothing to disengage reality? By softening what is harsh, does it carry no message? I wonder if maybe the message it carries to do so has been more harmful than we might like to admit.

[Blackmarch]

haven't read the whole dialogue but everything generally boils down to being for exaltation (from God, because he wants us to have every blessing that he enjoys) or being against it (from the devil, who won't ever have those blessings and hates everyone who opposed him in the battle in heaven IE you and me and every single person who's born to this world). And it's interesting to note that all (or almost all) of satan's tools are perversions of things given to us by God (both in how they are viewed and how they are used), that are originally supposed help us in some way to get to those blessings of exaltation and eternal life-

-Choice
-Strength
-Love
-Marriage
-mortality/ physicalness
-responsibility/accountability/ownership
-glory
-Children/families




the chapter in which adm and eve fell and both God an dthe Devil say that we have become like Gods has helped define what a God is for me.


Nuts outta time will finish this later


 

[NightSG]

I don't think it costs conservatives and orthodox Mormons very much, to dispense with terms like "pervert" in these discussions.

 

Takes longer to type "reprobate."

[Just_A_Guy]

It's an interesting thought. Is it true? Does it cost nothing to disengage reality? By softening what is harsh, does it carry no message? I wonder if maybe the message it carries to do so has been more harmful than we might like to admit.

 

I think English has plenty of other words that can describe the immorality of gay sexual relations, without our having to resort to a word that--through common usage or linguistic evolution or what-have-you--now tends to be associated with sexual practices that are several orders of magnitude more horrifying. 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

I think English has plenty of other words that can describe the immorality of gay sexual relations, without our having to resort to a word that--through common usage or linguistic evolution or what-have-you--now tends to be associated with sexual practices that are several orders of magnitude more horrifying. 

 

I don't disagree with anything you say here (with the, perhaps, exception being the usage of the word "resort"). What I am suggesting is that the fact that what you say is true is actually evidence of harm to society.

[prisonchaplain]

Since religious schools seem high on the list of next targets, has BYU made any statements?

[Blackmarch]

Since religious schools seem high on the list of next targets, has BYU made any statements?

not yet that i'm aware of.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps not...but the head is not in the sand:  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865632074/BYU-conference-explores-whats-next-for-religious-freedom.html

[David13]

Well, I could have said homosexual agenda.  But in truth that would not be fair to the lgbtq a and whatever other miscellaneous abominations are thrown in there.  Which, since I don't know, and don't want to know, may or may not include any or all of the other more "horrifying" abominations.

I think the real point is, is there a right and wrong any more?  And are we allowed to believe it, or not.

I guess what is being said here is, well, you said ball park, and in the ball park there are some light hitters, and some heavy hitters, and you (me) must say so, because you say so.

Well, they are all still in the ball park, and on the field and playing, aren't they?  Without regard to whether or not I use "politically correct" terms or accurate terms. 

And part of their game is to turn the churches into their little sin bin.

dc

[Syme]

The LGBT movement is based on the assumption that homosexuality = heterosexuality, and cis = trans. It's a social engineering movement which seeks to validate this assumption in the eyes of the majority. Religion (traditionally) says the opposite.

 

The problem is you cannot have it both ways. If homosexuality = heterosexuality, then religion is standing in the way of LGBT values getting to everyone. Especially children, which combined with the liberal philosophy of trusting the state instead of parents, will try to instill this ideology in schools, lest some religious "fanatic" parent teach them the "wrong" ideas.

 

If homosexality =/= heterosexuality then the LGBT movement is doing harm by promoting an unhealthy idea, and it should remain in the fringe.

 

Our only saving grace might be if there was some real scientific research on sexuality & gender. But I don't have much faith in people right now.

[AnthonyB]

If the LGBTI movement wants true (and total) equality then there are some areas where they are not fully equal and in which equality would be very difficult to enforce.

 

1) Procreation

No child can currently be born by a non hetero couple that is a genetic blend of only that couple, there must always be a 3rd person involved either for genetic material and aslo sometimes gestational input.

The creation of children is usually more expensive (IVF, surrogacy costs)

One of the primary drivers of life is reproduction, our biology is not technologically aware, so exclusively non hetero people surely have the dilemma around their inability to procreate. If I was born unable to precreate (whether it be natural or not), it would be hard not to see that as a disability.

 

2) Partnering

There is some conjecture on % but taking two commly quoted numbers.

If the % of LGBTI people is 10%, non LBGTI people have around 8-9 times the number of available partners in a population.

If % is closer to 4%, then that number increases to over 20 times and in smaller number sets they take a number from there own side of the pool. (ie At 4%, that would mean 2% of gay men (& 2 % lesbian roughly) but  in a population of 100, there would be only 2 gay men, leaving only 1 possible partner (ie each other).)

It is no easy matter for many people to find a life partner, but the % above make that seemingly a far greater challenge.

 

3)Genetic/Biological predisposition

If, as often asserted, being LGBTI is natural, then it is likely that genetic/biological markers or predisposing identifiers for this natural conditon will  be identify. Given the prevalance of gender selection through technology and reproductive choices (aka abortion), even in places were it is outlawed, it is not hard to imagine that people will choose to select away from having LGBTI children.We already dispose of surplus embreyos in IVF, it is not hard to imagine that this will take place.