a scenario

[Guest]

It comes down to a question of scriptural interpretation...

 

 

 

While I go to great lengths to tell the truth at all times (including the Jolly Fat Man) I also recognize things called tact and politeness.  The great sin that those verses refer to are more about spiritual things than anything else. 

 

Are you lying to get them to disbelieve revealed truth?

Are you lying to get someone to do something wrong?

Are you lying to destroy someone's faith in Christ?

Are you lying to them to hurt them?

Are you lying to get gain?

 

I hope you see the pattern.

 

While I don't encourage lying even about trivial things, I have a hard time believing that you're going to hell just because you told a fish story.

 :)

BTW, I once really did catch a trout that was almost 2 feet long.

[mordorbund]

 

BTW, I once really did catch a trout that was almost 2 feet long.

 

 

2 feet - bah! how about 4?!

 

[theSQUIDSTER]

2 feet - bah! how about 4?!

 

I have 2 fish that walk on four feet, meow, and hate water.

[BeccaKirstyn]

But we can, by principle, clearly state that those who procrastinate the day of their repentance will lose the opportunity to repent if they die in their sins.

 

 

I would love for you to expand upon this. We know, from scripture, that this life is the time to repent. To procrastinate repentance is a sin of itself. We also know that every single person, except the Sons of Perdition, will be saved and will enter into a specific kingdom. We know that all must repent of their sins before they enter into whichever kingdom they will reside. So are you referring to the Sons of Perdition? Because I'm not sure what you're referring to. 

 

[beefche]

Becca, read Alma 11 and 12 where it talks about people being saved "in their sins" and goes into more details.

[BeccaKirstyn]

O

 

Becca, read Alma 11 and 12 where it talks about people being saved "in their sins" and goes into more details.

So we're referring to Alma 12:16-18? (also Alma 11:41). 

I guess if someone would like to explain this in a "Gospel Principles" sort of way I would appreciate it. What I see here is the exact thing I was saying: No one can be saved in sin. Repentance is necessary to be saved. I see these verses as those who deliberately deny the gospel of Christ. But from what I've been taught (and maybe I've understood it wrong) is that EVERY person, besides those who qualify as sons of perdition and will reside in outer darkness, will inherit a kingdom of glory. I don't remember that there's any other place individuals go besides the 3 glories or outer darkness. So if these people who die in their sins, as The Folk Prophet states, will lose the opportunity to repent of their sins, then they have no place to go. From my understanding of what I've been taught, these individuals are given the opportunity again in Spirit Prison to accept the gospel and repent (even though the process is much harder in that state). 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

O

 

So we're referring to Alma 12:16-18? (also Alma 11:41). 

I guess if someone would like to explain this in a "Gospel Principles" sort of way I would appreciate it. What I see here is the exact thing I was saying: No one can be saved in sin. Repentance is necessary to be saved. I see these verses as those who deliberately deny the gospel of Christ. But from what I've been taught (and maybe I've understood it wrong) is that EVERY person, besides those who qualify as sons of perdition and will reside in outer darkness, will inherit a kingdom of glory. I don't remember that there's any other place individuals go besides the 3 glories or outer darkness. So if these people who die in their sins, as The Folk Prophet states, will lose the opportunity to repent of their sins, then they have no place to go. From my understanding of what I've been taught, these individuals are given the opportunity again in Spirit Prison to accept the gospel and repent (even though the process is much harder in that state). 

 

It's possible you are correct (if I'm reading you right) that they must repent to inherit even the Telestial glory. It is also possible that they do not. I'm not sure there is any concrete understanding of this in the church. I don't see it as particularly meaningful to what matters, however. If everyone must repent to make it to any degree of glory, then sure...they can repent. But what difference does it make if they've lost their exaltation? Isn't the point here, really, exaltation? Isn't that the point of repenting in this life? Surely we don't repent here to gain the Telestial glory. So if repenting after this life gains us nothing more than not repenting in this life did, then what is the point of the debate?

 

As to the specific question -- if repentance is required for the kingdoms of glory and there are only 3 glories and outer darkness (which we agree on), then isn't the obvious answer outer darkness for those who don't repent at all? Of course that is contingent upon the idea that repentance is requisite for the glory kingdoms. Logically, that makes no sense to me. Repentance means to change. To become righteous. To become clean. And yet the whole point here is that no unclean thing can dwell with God. If they are able to become clean, then why couldn't they be in the Celestial glory?

 

Like I said. It's possible you are correct in that regard. It just strikes me as problematic.

Edited October 8, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[BeccaKirstyn]

Well I have heard this quote before by Joseph Fielding Smith: 

 

Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth. 

They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world.In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received" (D&C 88:32). [Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22]

 

 

But yes of course, the purpose of repentance is to gain exaltation. That should always be our ultimate goal. From my understanding, outer darkness is only for those who deliberately deny Christ after having been a witness to all his glory. Not for any one else under any other circumstance. So then if there are those who have been a witness of Christ, and then deny him, and refuse to repent, then they qualify for outer darkness. But not those individuals who just die in their sins. 

 

Repentance is required for every kingdom. Like you said, no unclean thing can dwell with God. But there are many more requirements than just repentance to enter Celestial glory. And God wants ALL His children to inherit this glory, and makes it possible so that we can do so (ex: repentance after you die), but it is also contingent upon receiving all of your ordinances, being faithful and worthy and enduring to the end in righteousness. 

[The Folk Prophet]

From my understanding, outer darkness is only for those who deliberately deny Christ after having been a witness to all his glory

 

Doesn't that pretty well perfectly describe those who would refuse to bend their knee upon that day?

 

Repentance is required for every kingdom. Like you said, no unclean thing can dwell with God. But there are many more requirements than just repentance to enter Celestial glory. And God wants ALL His children to inherit this glory, and makes it possible so that we can do so (ex: repentance after you die), but it is also contingent upon receiving all of your ordinances, being faithful and worthy and enduring to the end in righteousness. 

 

Honestly I think this is getting into a bit of semantics here, which tends towards less useful in these discussions. I accept that from one perspective of what it means to repent, yes, all must repent. From another perspective, and the only one really meaningful to us, then I very much disagree that there is more to exaltation than repentance. Doing all that is asked of us is the requirement for exaltation. Not doing all that is asked of us is sin. Changing and doing all that is asked of us is repentance. What more can their be than this for exaltation. You name me one thing that we need to to beyond repentance that isn't a sin not to do and doesn't require repentance if not done and I'll buy you a Twinkie -- or alternatively your choice of delicious Hostess snack.

 

So I have to feel that, as stated, there are, as with many things in the gospel, different meanings to different words in different contexts.

 

So rather than continuing down a rather useless semantic debate of what it means to "repent". How's about we focus on the actual issue?

 

If a man does something wicked in the last moments of his life, after having lived a good and honorable life, does he forfeit his exaltation thereby?

 

Is that not the real question?

 

Obviously needing to and/or being able to repent in order to gain the Telestial kingdom is irrelevant to the matter.

[BeccaKirstyn]

 

 

If a man does something wicked in the last moments of his life, after having lived a good and honorable life, does he forfeit his exaltation thereby?

 

 

 

Only person who gets to decide that is God. I'm gonna leave that up to Him. (Kind of why I didn't like this thread in the first place, but some things were mentioned that caught my attention that I wanted to understand). 

 

I agree, too much semantic debate, not enough focus on the basics. I will not win that Twinkie (or other delicious Hostess snack) because "doing all that is required of us" involves all the things I stated that qualify us for exaltation. I would call that a trick question! 

[askandanswer]

From my perspective, this has been a very thought-provoking and instructive discussion and I thank you both for your well considered input. I understand the issues and the scriptures involved much more than I did when I first asked the question. It seems, as Bec has suggested, that the safest answer is to leave it in the hands of God, although that still leaves open the question of how to interpret those scriptures that seem to suggest other options. And probably the answer to that question is to let the Spirit supplement our logic and reasoning. 

[askandanswer]

From my perspective, this has been a very thought-provoking and instructive discussion and I thank you both for your well considered input. I understand the issues and the scriptures involved much more than I did when I first asked the question. It seems, as Bec has suggested, that the safest answer is to leave it in the hands of God, although that still leaves open the question of how to interpret those scriptures that seem to suggest other options. And probably the answer to that question is to let the Spirit supplement our logic and reasoning. 

[The Folk Prophet]

the safest answer is to leave it in the hands of God, 

 

Leave other's salvation in the hands of God. Our own salvation is ours to work out with fear and trembling. (Mormon 9:27)

[omegaseamaster75]

If a man does something wicked in the last moments of his life, after having lived a good and honorable life, does he forfeit his exaltation thereby?

 

Is that not the real question?

 

 

I'll bite, it depends on how wicked he was, did he not tell his wife that she looked fat in a dress? Them no he has forfeited nothing.

 

Did he kill his wife with his dying breath then yes.

[The Folk Prophet]

Leave other's salvation in the hands of God. Our own salvation is ours to work out with fear and trembling. (Mormon 9:27)

 

Just to prove I'm an equal opportunity debate-monger, I will now argue with myself:

 

Since part of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling involves preaching the gospel, loving our neighbor, mourning with those that mourn, etc., the above statement is not entirely true.

Edited October 8, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[askandanswer]

Only person who gets to decide that is God. I'm gonna leave that up to Him. (Kind of why I didn't like this thread in the first place, but some things were mentioned that caught my attention that I wanted to understand). 

 

 

 

This conclusion, and the related idea that we don't really know how it will turn out, raises the possibility that we don't really know the principles and procedures and "criteria" by which we will be judged. That is such a contrast to the way temporal courts and judgements operate, where all the rules and procedures are set out in great detail. Now I'm starting to wonder a little bit about the justice of being judged by a system that is not transparent and only partly understood.

[The Folk Prophet]

we don't really know how it will turn out,

 

Incorrect.

 

we don't really know the principles and procedures and "criteria" by which we will be judged.

 

Also incorrect.

 

a system that is not transparent and only partly understood.

 

Also incorrect.

[omegaseamaster75]

Consider the following scenario:

 

A young man completes an honourable mission. A year or two later he is married in the temple. Some time later, after having served as an Elders Quorum President, he is called as a bishop. A short time after being released as bishop he is called as a Stake President. Shortly after retiring from work, he and his wife go on a mission. Not long after they finish their mission, they become temple workers. Finally, he is called to his last calling, as stake Patriarach. One day, while he and his wife are preparing to go to a mission reunion, she turns to him and says “do I look good in this dress”? She doesn’t but as he has said a thousand times throughout their marriage, he says she looks beautiful. On the way to the reunion, he is killed in a car crash.

 

Consider the following scriptures:

 (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:34)

34  Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 82:7)

7  And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:31)

31  For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

(Old Testament | Ezekiel 18:24)

4 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?  All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

Having stated an untruth to his wife shortly before he died, something that he has done repeatedly throughout his life, and not having repented of it, what will be the fate of this humble, obedient servant of God in the next life? Was it a sin to tell his wife something that he knew was not true in the hope that she would believe it? Did he lie? Will God overlook it? Can he repent in the next life of things done here? Is it the case, as D&C 82 suggests that that by repeating an action that may be sinful that he has done repeatedly throughout his life, that his formers sin shall return, and as Ezekiel suggests, will all his righteousness not be mentioned? What will happen to this man?

This topic has gotten out of control, the question as posed by the OP is silly. We are not talking about major sin, we are not even talking about minor sin. 

 

There was no sin or malice as such no judgement in this scenario should be placed. By all accounts in this scenario the man in question is a good and righteous person.

 

The fact that there has been so much discussion about nothing is a little mind boggling 

[Guest]

This topic has gotten out of control, the question as posed by the OP is silly. We are not talking about major sin, we are not even talking about minor sin. 

 

There was no sin or malice as such no judgement in this scenario should be placed. By all accounts in this scenario the man in question is a good and righteous person.

 

The fact that there has been so much discussion about nothing is a little mind boggling 

 

STOP THE PRESSES!  I actually agree with Omega!  :)

 

Yeah, the OP scenario was terrible.

 

But the gist of the question is - having lived your entire life in righteousness, you failed to endure to the end such that your last act is that of unrighteousness right before death... how fair thee in judgment?  Answers of course in the hypothetical because only God has the power to judge.

[omegaseamaster75]

 

 

But the gist of the question is - having lived your entire life in righteousness, you failed to endure to the end such that your last act is that of unrighteousness right before death... how fair thee in judgment?  Answers of course in the hypothetical because only God has the power to judge.

You fair well in the final judgement, how could you not. Gods grace will cover the little stuff.

 

We miss the mark when we concern ourselves with the minutia of what if scenarios.

[Guest]

You fair well in the final judgement, how could you not. Gods grace will cover the little stuff.

 

We miss the mark when we concern ourselves with the minutia of what if scenarios.

 

I agree with the "miss the mark in the minutia".

 

But as far as final judgment... I believe death is not the end of repentance.

[omegaseamaster75]

I agree repentance does not end with death

[Guest]

I agree repentance does not end with death

 

Red Letter Day!

[mordorbund]

Red Letter Day!

 

Did someone commit adultery?

[Guest]

Did someone commit adultery?

 

Mordorbund.  I forgive you because you're male (uhm, you're male, right?).  My husband doesn't distinguish between the generic red and the qualified scarlet either.  I would be just happy if he can distinguish between purple and lavender...

 

 

 

Okay, okay, I'm lying.  My husband is very good with distinguishing shades of colors.  He just can't name them.  :)

Edited October 9, 2015 by anatess