Eternal Damnation In Hellfire

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>If I'm wrong about LDS teachings, look me up, Elph. I'll be happier in the Telestial than I would be in the CK anyway. I don't want lots of kids, I love coffee, I occasionally swear, loud laughter makes me feel good, I don't believe someone has authority over someone else just bc of their gender, and I loved the movie 'Knocked Up' (rated R)... oh, and I won't share my man!

Please don't anyone get angry about this... it's in good fun.

Hey Shan,

I think you're catchin' on to my drift, you know what I'm sayin' sista!

If it it turns out that Mormonism is true, I do not believe I will be punished for my inability to believe, regardless of what everybody thinks. I just cannot imagine a god that would do that.

So Shan, while I imagine you'll be a kingdom or two ahead of me, perhaps you'll at least deign to take the elevator down to come visit me! After all, sometimes Girls Just Wanna Have Fun!

Love ya,

Elphie

PS This is ridiculous that I have to repeat what Shan said, but please don't get angry about this. It's in good fun.

In all reality, I don't believe in different levels of Heaven. I think that goes against what God wants for us.

[Doctor Steuss]

In all reality, I don't believe in different levels of Heaven. I think that goes against what God wants for us.

To an extent, even the “three kingdoms” (although technically there are more than three) to me doesn’t even sit well. Justice doesn’t seem to be served by having such a definitive line drawn in the sand. And the heaven/hell dichotomy seems to take this to the extreme.

Where is the line drawn? If someone lives the life of a saint, it’s pretty sure they’ll be in the one and only heaven in the presence of G-d (which is the ultimate reward, and which is what makes heaven into a “heaven”). But, what if someone cheats on their spouse? Do they still get the ultimate reward of the one heaven? What if they cheat on their spouse, swindle a widow from their savings, and beat their children? Is that the line to where they can no longer go to the one and only heaven and are instead consigned to be tortured infinitely in “hell”? Where is the line? Why does someone who lives a less than stellar life get to be in the same one and only heaven as someone who led a life of sacrifice? Why does a mass murderer get to "accept Jesus" on his deathbed and end up in the same one and only heaven that those whom he murdered may be?

It just seems like a dichotomy that goes against the very nature of fairness and justice.

Only Sith deal in absolutes…

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>In all reality, I don't believe in different levels of Heaven. I think that goes against what God wants for us.

To an extent, even the “three kingdoms” (although technically there are more than three) to me doesn’t even sit well. Justice doesn’t seem to be served by having such a definitive line drawn in the sand. And the heaven/hell dichotomy seems to take this to the extreme.

Where is the line drawn? If someone lives the life of a saint, it’s pretty sure they’ll be in the one and only heaven in the presence of G-d (which is the ultimate reward, and which is what makes heaven into a “heaven”). But, what if someone cheats on their spouse? Do they still get the ultimate reward of the one heaven? What if they cheat on their spouse, swindle a widow from their savings, and beat their children? Is that the line to where they can no longer go to the one and only heaven and are instead consigned to be tortured infinitely in “hell”? Where is the line? Why does someone who lives a less than stellar life get to be in the same one and only heaven as someone who led a life of sacrifice? Why does a mass murderer get to "accept Jesus" on his deathbed and end up in the same one and only heaven that those whom he murdered may be?

It just seems like a dichotomy that goes against the very nature of fairness and justice.

Only Sith deal in absolutes…

Okay you guys. Am I going to hell or not? Hmph!

Elphie

P.S. I'm hoping you're feeling well Dr. S. I've been "listening' to you talk about it, and have been concerned. E.

[pushka]

Shan, I'd just like to take this opportunity, because I didn't do it in the Golden Rule thread, to thank you for your comments in both these threads, concerning me, Elphie, you and others like us.

I would love to meet you all again and hang out in our 'heaven'!! :)

[Doctor Steuss]

Okay you guys. Am I going to hell or not? Hmph!

Elphie

We are all going to Hell (sheol and hades [depending on if you're Hebrew or Greek] is but a resting place for the dead).

P.S. I'm hoping you're feeling well Dr. S. I've been "listening' to you talk about it, and have been concerned. E.

All of the "noise" in my head is making me a bit angry and irritable (and bitter), but all-in-all, I'm hanging in there. All things must pass…

Thank you for your concern E. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Here's an interesting, not longish defense of the doctrine of hell. He seems to argue from the same perspective I do.

http://apologetics.johndepoe.com/hell.html

[prisonchaplain]

PC – If you believe G-d punishes anyone in a manner that does not benefit that individual – I would be most disappointed that you would hold on to that belief and not consider that G-d does indeed have a good plan, even for those that he punishes.

The Traveler

Sometimes punishment is for the benefit of others, not the one being punished. For example, God is quite clear in the OT about approving of the death penalty. No OT person would have argued, "Well, that's so that he can have better opportunities to encounter God in Spirit-prison." Instead, they would argue that his/her punishment best served society, or perhaps more directly, the victims. The sense that there was an overall justice to the world--that good was rewarded, and evil punished--that is G-d's good plan.

[CrimsonKairos]

Good point, PC.

[prisonchaplain]

You are correct - it is a disapointment and sadness to me that you believe G-d does not have a good plan for those who he punishes. Perhaps some day you can explain the point of such punishment in light of a G-d of love and compassion that is willing to suffer and die himself for the eternal benefit beyond what is a just reward.

The point may be for us that live...not for those dead to God. The idea of justice--that good is rewarded and evil punished--is surely God-breathed into the common sense of morality that does pervade humanity.

BTW - If you believe in the fall - how can we get to heaven without death (which is the meaning of "hell") as given in scripture.

Perhaps you can explain. Jesus died for our sins. It's a gospel 7-year olds grasp. I know I am missing your point, so you'll have to spell it out for me.

Okay you guys. Am I going to hell or not? Hmph!

Elphie

Elphie's tired of philosophy and beating around the bush. So, here's my direct answer.:

No. Within the next six months you will likely have an epiphany, realize that the God of the Bible is true, that Jesus is his only begotten son, and you will then join your local Assemblies of God church, and probably start helping out with our Missionettes (girls scouting program) within a few months of that. When you are baptized in water, and asked, "How did you come to know Christ?" you will answer, "I first heard about him at LDStalk.com

[CrimsonKairos]

[Elphaba]

Elphie's tired of philosophy and beating around the bush. So, here's my direct answer.:

No. Within the next six months you will likely have an epiphany, realize that the God of the Bible is true, that Jesus is his only begotten son, and you will then join your local Assemblies of God church, and probably start helping out with our Missionettes (girls scouting program) within a few months of that. When you are baptized in water, and asked, "How did you come to know Christ?" you will answer, "I first heard about him at LDStalk.com

PC,

It's marked on my Calendar.

(That wasy very good!)

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

I would have pegged as going Lutheran, but our music is better! :-) (Sorry Maureen. LOL)

[Elphaba]

There is a common theme throughout the Abrahamic religions, including LDS: Those who seek God with a sincere heart will find Him. We find this promise in the OT, the NT, and the BoM. I would guess that it is in the Qur'an, as well. Beyond this, we have the passage in Romans 1 that declares humanity to be without excuse, since God has revealed himself through nature.

So, the dilemma is this: Is there really God? If so, is He good and just? If so, and if He promises to make himself known to those that seek Him, then we conclude that hell is a place of justice.

If you appear before God and say, "I would have gladly believed, but I could not." His answer will be one of pure justice and mercy. However, it will also be one that pierces the heart.

You do not have to justify yourself before any person of faith. We simply remain convinced that God is there to be found, and when you do see him, you will know that He has always been oh so close.

You know what, PC, I missed this earlier. So, I wanted to let you know I saw it, and that I thought it was kind. I like kind.

Elphaba

[john doe]

I've been gone for a couple days, and this thread, and others, have largely passed me by, with some barbs thrown my way. There are reasons why I seem to be here for a few days and then disappear without explanantion for a few days, none of them related to the shots aimed at me. All I'm going to do is restate my position and you can put me on ignore too if it makes you feel better.

I pity a person who refuses to look around them and then claim that there is no way God, or any god, did not have a hand in building this system. I don't buy the whole 'I just don't see it, I can't believe it' routine. I see it as a refusal to acknowledge God, or any higher power than ourselves. I see it as arrogance to believe that there is not a power stronger than man in the universe. This earth didn't just happen by chance. The more I learn about our universe, the earth, our solar system, it is plain to me that the way things are, are not by happenstance. Something put these things here in the right way to make it happen. If you refuse to see it, I truly feel sorry for you. I pity you for not seeing it.

No matter what others might say here, no one will spend eternity in the presence of Jesus and God without first acknowledging that they exist. If that concept offends you, so be it. Why should you care? You refuse to believe in them anyway. It's a meaningless argument to be offended when someone says you will be cast out of the presence of someone whom you refuse to acknowledge. Most people whom I have seen who don't believe in any god also don't believe in an afterlife. If you don't believe in it, why all the gnashing of teethe at being told you will go to a place better than this one? You don't believe it anyway. Or do you? Maybe it's all an act, and you DO believe, you just want to be rebellious against God?

[a-train]

We all have the promise that we can know if there be any God or not.

If anyone wants to know this great question, if there be any God, this is what the prophet Aaron, the son of Mosiah said:

'If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.' (Alma 22:16)

It was the words of James that got Joseph Smith asking questions: 'If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.' (James 1:5)

The Saviour's words to the Jews who questioned the authority of his doctrine (and ultimately it's truthfulness) were: 'If any man will do [God's] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.' (John 7:17)

But the most well known teaching is that given in the Sermon on the Mount: 'Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.' (Matt 7:7-8)

Among all the witnesses given that there be a God, no man can get any better knowledge than that revealed directly by God in answer to honest prayer. For as Paul put it: 'no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.' (1 Cor 12:13)

-a-train

[Adomini22]

I've been gone for a couple days, and this thread, and others, have largely passed me by, with some barbs thrown my way. There are reasons why I seem to be here for a few days and then disappear without explanantion for a few days, none of them related to the shots aimed at me. All I'm going to do is restate my position and you can put me on ignore too if it makes you feel better.

I pity a person who refuses to look around them and then claim that there is no way God, or any god, did not have a hand in building this system. I don't buy the whole 'I just don't see it, I can't believe it' routine. I see it as a refusal to acknowledge God, or any higher power than ourselves. I see it as arrogance to believe that there is not a power stronger than man in the universe. This earth didn't just happen by chance. The more I learn about our universe, the earth, our solar system, it is plain to me that the way things are, are not by happenstance. Something put these things here in the right way to make it happen. If you refuse to see it, I truly feel sorry for you. I pity you for not seeing it.

No matter what others might say here, no one will spend eternity in the presence of Jesus and God without first acknowledging that they exist. If that concept offends you, so be it. Why should you care? You refuse to believe in them anyway. It's a meaningless argument to be offended when someone says you will be cast out of the presence of someone whom you refuse to acknowledge. Most people whom I have seen who don't believe in any god also don't believe in an afterlife. If you don't believe in it, why all the gnashing of teethe at being told you will go to a place better than this one? You don't believe it anyway. Or do you? Maybe it's all an act, and you DO believe, you just want to be rebellious against God?

John...I agree that it is hard to see the work of a creator in all things around us. All things, in my humble opinion, testify of a higher being. Nevertheless, why pity someone for it? Let it be. Your comments are directed towards those that either choose not to believe, or just dont. So be it. I think God will reveal himself to all anywayz. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess............... Time will tell. No hard feelings necessary.

[CrimsonKairos]

I've poked John Doe's feelings with a stick...they're not hard.

[john doe]

[

John...I agree that it is hard to see the work of a creator in all things around us. All things, in my humble opinion, testify of a higher being. Nevertheless, why pity someone for it? Let it be. Your comments are directed towards those that either choose not to believe, or just dont. So be it. I think God will reveal himself to all anywayz. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess............... Time will tell. No hard feelings necessary.

My point is what I bolded in your post, they choose not to believe. I have no hard feelings, just pity for those who choose not to see God. I feel sorry for them.

I've poked John Doe's feelings with a stick...they're not hard.

LOL!

[Elphaba]

I've been gone for a couple days, and this thread, and others, have largely passed me by, with some barbs thrown my way. There are reasons why I seem to be here for a few days and then disappear without explanantion for a few days, none of them related to the shots aimed at me. All I'm going to do is restate my position and you can put me on ignore too if it makes you feel better.

Obviously your post is directed at me. I have no reason to put you on ignore.

As far as shots or barbs aimed at you, what are you talking about? There was only one time I wrote an inappropriate comment directed at you, and I apologized for it. Did you see my apology? You didn't acknowledge it, so I'm assuming you didn't.

I must ask, why in the world are you taking my posts so personally? You initially chose to respond to a post I had written, not the other way around. It was your decision to engage me in my conversation in the first place! You popped in, explained the gospel, (which I already knew), and then popped out angrily when I didn't immediately accept your belief system (which I had already lived with for 20+ years). Did you really think you were going to re-convert me in a thread on a message board?

I have gone back through the thread, and am baffled that you see me getting offended. I wasn't ever offended. I was confused, because you mentioned hell, and being raised Mormon I didn't think there was such a thing, or at least not the way you described it. So I asked you to clarify. What was wrong with that?

Additionally, I see nothing in those posts I have written that should have offended you. You explained your belief, and I responded with mine, which I am as entitled to as you are. Using your choice of languge I could have said something like "It is arrogance to believe there is a power stronger than man in the universe," but I would never do such a thing! It would never occur to me--I only thought of it now after reading your post tonight.

However, you think nothing of belittling my beliefs with such language. And before you think I'm offended again, I'm not. I'm curious. I don't understand what I have done to you that would make you so angry that you would do such a thing.

Back to the other thread, I think you may have gotten the idea I was angry after you wrote: "You should be happy with the prospect of going to hell. It's where you'll be most comfortable."

If you recall I asked you if this was doctrine or if you were being mean. I truly did not know. I couldn't imagine someone actually writing such a mean statement. But you never responded, so I let it go.

This is the only comment I can think of where you got the idea I was offended or angry; however, I wasn't. If I'm right, and this was it, please understand it was not, and let go of the idea now.

I pity a person who refuses to look around them and then claim that there is no way God, or any god, did not have a hand in building this system.

Somehow "pity" is not what I'm feeling from you.

I don't buy the whole 'I just don't see it, I can't believe it' routine. I see it as a refusal to acknowledge God, or any higher power than ourselves. I see it as arrogance to believe that there is not a power stronger than man in the universe. This earth didn't just happen by chance.

Are you saying you think I am lying when you say you don't by the "routine"? Why can't you just accept it is what I say it is? You don't think it's possible for someone to believe differently than you, to have had completely different experiences than you? Is that what is so frightening to you?

If you refuse to see it, I truly feel sorry for you. I pity you for not seeing it.

Once again, I don't "refuse" to see it. I don't see it. Do you "refuse" to see "Zeus?" Do you "refuse" to see "Odin?" Do you refuse to see "Loki?"

You see, everyone is an atheist in some way. You too. You can no more make yourself "see" those gods, believe in those gods, than I can make myself believe in yours.

And contrary to what you say, it is not a choice. Tell me, when did you choose not to believe in Santa Claus any more? When did you choose not to believe in the Easter Bunny? When did you choose not to believe the sun came up and went down every day by magic? You think I'm mocking you, but I'm not! This is exactly how it feels to me. Exactly.

No matter what others might say here, no one will spend eternity in the presence of Jesus and God without first acknowledging that they exist. If that concept offends you, so be it.

Again, why do you keep saying it offends me? Go back and read what I actually wrote! I said if I was in the presence of Jesus I would accept him. What part of that says I would be offended? Your overreactions are keeping you from reading what I actually wrote.

Why should you care? You refuse to believe in them anyway. It's a meaningless argument to be offended when someone says you will be cast out of the presence of someone whom you refuse to acknowledge.

It is not a refusal, and you are the one making this an argument, unnecessarily. And if you say I'm going to be offended one more time I. Will. Scream.

Most people whom I have seen who don't believe in any god also don't believe in an afterlife. If you don't believe in it, why all the gnashing of teethe at being told you will go to a place better than this one?

LOL Please point out where I gnashed my teeth. Or, lacking that, point out where I was upset at being told I will go to a place better than this one. I'm sorry, but do you hear yourself?

You don't believe it anyway. Or do you? Maybe it's all an act, and you DO believe, you just want to be rebellious against God?

Why in the world would I do such a thing?

I have no wish to argue with you. Please understand you are taking my words far to personally. Try very hard to let go of your anger towards me, and then go back and read what I wrote. I think you'll see I didn't say anything to warrant your animosity.

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

An analogy: There are those silly pictures that have certain images imbedded in them. If you look long enough, or at the right angle, then you can see the "hidden image." I'm generally terrible at those things. Somebody can yell at me all day long: SEE? SEE? DON'T YOU SEE IT? COME ON, IT'S RIGHT THERE!!! All that will happen is, I'll get frustrated. Then, some minutes later--usually when nobody is saying anything, and I'm not trying so hard, "Oh...there it is. Of course, it's right there...bright as day." Now I can't not see it. But, I still remember when I couldn't.

Are we not discussing faith, here? We who believe can look at creation and see the hand of God in it, quite easily. However, for those who do not believe (is it really legitimate for us to believe we know why???) there is science and there is the unknown.

If we have the hearts of evangelists (as we believers should), then we live godly lives, and we testify to what we know and have experienced. We let the Holy Spirit spur conversion.

Hope this makes sense.

[shanstress70]

I can see your point, John Doe, about being frustrated when someone can't acknowledge that there was a creator of some type. I minored in biology, and although I believe in evolution, I find it totally absurd that everything just got started by some amino acids in a pond. And even if so, where did the amino acids come from? And where did water come from? Where did all the elements come from? Something absolutely HAD to set it all into motion. I always go back to the old watch analogy: Even if you had all the parts to a watch, could it just go together and work perfectly? No way! And a watch is nothing compared to what it takes to make a human body function.

I can also see Elph's point. Some people just don't get slapped upside the head with a booming message from God that He is the creator and sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. A-train said that anyone can know the truth if they just bow down and sincerely ask. Not true. I've done it so many times and have had nothing more than a good feeling. I have never gotten a clear answer from God. Does He just not want to answer me? Am I unworthy of an answer? Am I just deaf to it? Can't be... I want that answer more than anything.

Regardless of all this, I do believe. I believe that there is a creator, and I believe that is God. I also believe that Jesus walked on this earth because of things I've read in the Bible. So I hold on to that and I consider myself a Christian. However, I can understand why someone can't just make themselves believe. Even if I'm wrong to believe what I do, it certainly doesn't HURT to believe as long as I: 1) don't put myself above someone who doesn't believe, and 2) live my life fully in case I'm wrong and there isn't anything else. I probably have an easier time dealing with death than someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. I was there for a while and I was depressed as heck.

So Elph, regardless of what it is, I do hope you eventually come to have some belief that there is more than just this life.

[Iggy]

Articles of Faith

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Doesn't this also mean to allow them to NOT beleive if they so wish???

I think that verse 13 is important here too- along with definitions of some key words.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Honest:

1. honorable in principles, intentions, and actions; upright and fair: an honest person.

2. showing uprightness and fairness: honest dealings.

3. gained or obtained fairly: honest wealth.

4. sincere; frank: an honest face.

5. genuine or unadulterated: honest commodities.

6. respectable; having a good reputation: an honest name.

7. truthful or creditable: honest weights.

8. humble, plain, or unadorned.

9. Archaic. chaste; virtuous.

Chaste:

1. refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous.

2. VIRGIN.

3. not engaging in sexual relations; celibate.

4. free from obscenity; decent: chaste conversation.

5. undefiled or stainless: chaste, white snow.

6. pure in style; not excessively ornamented; simple.

Benevolent:

characterized by or expressing goodwill or kindly feelings: a benevolent attitude; her benevolent smile.

2. desiring to help others; charitable: gifts from several benevolent alumni.

3. intended for benefits rather than profit: a benevolent institution.

Virtuous:

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life.

2. chaste: a virtuous young person.

Lovely:

charmingly or exquisitely beautiful: a lovely flower.

2. having a beauty that appeals to the heart or mind as well as to the eye, as a person or a face.

3. delightful; highly pleasing: to have a lovely time.

4. of a great moral or spiritual beauty: a lovely character.

–noun

6. any person or thing that is pleasing, highly satisfying, or the like: Every car in the new line is a lovely.

–adverb

7. Nonstandard. very well; splendidly

Praiseworthy:

Meriting praise; highly commendable.

My point being - are we all emulating these in our posts to others?

[sixpacktr]

Yes, people have the free will to not believe if they wish. I don't believe that anyone would or should think otherwise. However, there are still consequences to actions. It is not up to US to dish out those consequences, but there are consequences none the less. To believe otherwise is naive to the nth degree...

[pushka]

I'm happy to see that some of the tension is being removed from this thread now...I hope it continues :)

PC and Shanstress, thank you for your posts and analogies. Even tho I call myself an unbeliever at present, there is hardly a day goes by when I question my current stance. Yes I do see the beauty of this world and the people, animals and flowers etc. in it. I do question whether or not this could have come about without the work of a 'creator', and often I think not. However, once I acknowledge that there may be a creator, higher being, god...I start to have a whole other set of questions about where that person originated from...generally Christians (non LDS) say that he is eternal, and LDS Christians I think also say he is eternal, but acknowledge the existence of previous Gods...Grandfather God etc. Please let me know if I've got that wrong. Therefore, there are too many unanswerable questions for me to believe entirely in a creator/higher being/god...and I can't just go off the Bible and other holy books to make me believe. As all have said, it is just a matter of faith. I could easily begin going to church tomorrow, regardless of my doubts, and just hope that by doing so, and by being a 'good' person in general I will be received in Heaven, but as I still doubt his existence, and question some of the ways in which we are to worship him, I think I would be a hypocrite to do so...

[Elphaba]

Yes, people have the free will to not believe if they wish. (emphasis mine)

It is not my wish not to believe. Once again, I did not choose not to believe, any more than you chose to no longer believe in leprechauns.

Elphaba