**SPOILERS** If The Force Awakens, why was I going to sleep?

[Guest]

When you include the entire Star Wars universe everything doesn't seem too petty because it all gets fleshed out in minute detail beyond the 2 hour (or 14 hours) screen time.

 

First:  As bytebear mentioned, the original Star Wars script was carefully patterned after the mythical archetypes of Bastian/Jung that Campbell used in his book The Hero With a Thousand Faces.  The archetypes follow the War In Heaven where Lucifer and Jesus have the same purpose to fulfill God's plan but Satan accomplishes the purpose through force, Jesus through sacrifice.  A third of hosts followed Satan, the rest followed Jesus and they become forever locked in battle.  The archetypes continue with the Mentor, the Oracle, the Prophecy, etc. etc.  The entire thing is called the Hero's Journey and Bastian posited that all mythical stories follow this same pattern.

 

Lucas sought out Campbell to flesh out his initial script as well as the expansion into Episodes V and VI following the Hero's Journey.  The Wachowski brothers used the same archetypes in The Matrix and Harry Potter has a lot of the same elements.

 

So, Star Wars:

The archenemies are Siths and Jedis.  They started out brothers with the same purpose - to bring peace, order, and justice to the universe.  The Siths loosely follow Satan's way of doing it - by stripping choice.. The Jedi loosely follow Jesus' way of doing it - by self sacrifice.

 

So, the Siths are trained to desire to be the most powerful force in the universe so nobody will dare to engage in war.  The Jedi are trained to desire to be the universe' teachers, mentors, police, and protectors so peace can be maintained.  The Force is said to remain in balance if a trained Jedi remains to control the Sith.

 

Over a thousand years prior to the Clone wars, the Jedi managed to destroy the Sith except one - Darth Bane.  Bane realized that the quest for power instilled in all Siths led to the Siths becoming weaker as they fought each other due to jealousy or greed.  Therefore, he decided to change the Sith training method to the Rule of Two - a Master to teach the next generation of Sith and the Apprentice to challenge the Master.  The Apprentice goes through several steps in the training - the first of which is to destroy all attachments to loved ones.  This isolates the Apprentice and focuses all his loyalty to the Master.  The last step is for him to eventually become more powerful than the master by finding his own apprentice and killing his master thus beginning the next cycle of Two.

 

After the destruction of the Sith (nobody knew Bane survived), the Jedi was able to maintain peace and order in the galaxy but then they started getting corrupted when fear overtakes them or love for their family and friends make them exercise poor judgment, etc.  Master Yoda, in his quest to purify the Jedi Order, decided to instill rules in Jedi training such as - sending out living force scouts that will identify force-sensitive children, separate them from their families and send them to grow up in the Jedi temple for training.  They are then forbidden to form attachments, they are trained to control fears, etc. etc.  Lots of Yodaisms... well, Yoda's line in Episode III kinda says it all when it comes to his method - Failed, have I.  But, in the movie it seems that he simply gave up fighting the Emperor and then went into exile.  There's a lot more to why that moment when he fell off the pod led him to believe that the Jedi failed because of his training.

 

Anyway... so Darth Vader:

Yes, if you just go by the movies, it seems like his killing of younglings and his blowing up of Alderaan are a lot of dark that got redeemed by one spark of light - saving his son.  It's a lot more than that, between Episodes I and III, he saved so many lives and worlds even as an apprentice under Obi-Wan and as a Jedi Knight himself.  Him and Obi-Wan were revered as the greatest of Knights and both of them are always called to deal with the most important missions - like rescuing Palpatine.

 

On the surface, Anakin had no attachments except his mother and the Jedi Order.  He lost his attachment to his mother because of the requirements of Yoda's training.  He became an Apprentice in the Rule of Two when he killed the last of his attachments - the Jedi Order, especially the Younglings which he had the most affinity to.  But Anakin's love goes deeper than those.  He loved Padme, he loved Palpatine, he loved the people he met, fought for, saved, saved him, etc. in all the worlds he has been to.  He even loved the clones.  He loved easily and deeply and so he ended up feeling like a failure as a Jedi under Yoda's rules.  Qui-gon referred to this as a strong connection to the Living Force - a good thing - so Anakin has always felt this contradiction between Qui-Gon and Yoda battling inside him.

 

Now, in the movie, it wasn't really clear why he chose to be an Apprentice - it was too rushed, I think.  The driving force to that was his love for Padme.  He became aware of a way to save people from death when Sidious told him about Darth Plageous finding a way to transfer one's living force into another body.  The tomes that teach of this living force are locked in the Jedi archives and the only way you can get to them is if you're a Jedi Master.  Well, he got appointed to the Council but was never given the rank of Master so his desperation led him to anger against Obi-Wan and the Council.  But, he loved the Jedi as well, especially Obi-Wan, so he was desperately torn.  He was feeling guilt because his forbidden attachment to Padme is leading him to anger against the Order - the exact thing that Yoda warned him against.  But he couldn't let go of Padme.  In the end, when Windu was on the verge of killing Sidious, Anakin's love for Palpatine (who he considered one of his mentors) and his fear that the knowledge to save people from death will be lost to him, a rash decision led him to cause the death of Windu.  The despair and guilt he felt when this happened led him to believe he is unredeemable - his failure is complete.  So he clung to the only thing he knew that still wanted him - Sidious - who also could help him save Padme.  He had to accomplish his first step in Apprenticeship - kill his attachment to everyone he loves - starting with the Jedi Order.  Well, in the end, he wasn't able to save Padme.. and he wasn't able to kill his love for Obi-Wan.  His desperate cry in the end - I hate you! -  was a desperate plea to prove to himself he doesn't love Obi-Wan (that's why Obi-Wan decided to die instead of be killed by Vader in Episode IV so that Vader won't finish what Anakin couldn't do).   And when Sidious told him he killed Padme (to kill off the last of his attachments), his hope for redemption died with it because he thought if only he has Padme, he can overcome the dark side.  And it has been pain, death, and destruction since then.  It's quite moving reading about Vader putting on his mask everyday and reliving the same feeling of love and failure everytime he puts it on, then get up and try to kill that love by destroying things.  Because, even as a Sith Apprentice, he felt like he was failing at that too because he still feels love.

 

So then, fast forward to him realizing his children survived... it sparked his feeling of hope for redemption again even by a tiny bit.  He thought, if only he could bring Luke in as his Apprentice, then they can finally kill Sidious and then they can rule the galaxy the way Padme wanted.  Well, it didn't quite pan out that way.  Instead, he had to do a very Jedi thing - self-sacrifice.

 

Now, his redemption wasn't because he saved his son.  His redemption was because he kept balance in the Force.  Luke was the last of the Jedi.  Yoda was dead, Obi-Wan was dead.  Luke was about to die.  That would have been the end of the Jedi.  Instead, Vader sacrificed himself - ended the Rule of Two - to keep the Jedi alive.

 

Now:  The New Movie.

Yes, it follows the same formula as Episode IV because they followed the same archetype.  Now, Disney kept a lot of the universe even as they changed a lot of things - Like Han's kids were twins Jacen and Jaina and a younger son, Anakin Solo.  Chewbacca dies saving Anakin which brought Han to a cycle of depression which kinda triggered Jacen's journey to become Darth Caedus.  Ben Skywalker is Luke's son.  But that's all changed now.  Now Ben Solo is Kylo Ren and they didn't tell us why he turned dark - there's always a trigger, we don't know what yet... we have to wait for the next movie (or a book if they still do that).

 

Anyway, they kept the Jedi Academy... so... Luke, the last of the Jedi, opened up a Jedi Training Academy.  This time, he changed Yoda's rules and made his own.  So Jedi training still starts out from younglings but they're not separated from their parents anymore - they go to Jedi Academy in the same way they go to school - they can go home.  Jedi can have attachments - Luke got married.  Etc. etc.  The movie showed that somehow, this method failed (we don't know how or why) which led to Ben Solo turning to the dark side - and causing Luke to disband the Academy and go into exile.  I'm thinking Rey was dropped off on Jakku when this happened - so she might have something to do with this.

 

So, we see in the movie Ben Solo qualify for Sith Apprenticeship by killing Han Solo (insider tidbit:  Harrison Ford has been begging Lucas to kill off Han and Lucas refused... Disney granted his wish... so he's been telling everyone how awesome this new movie is.).  I don't know if they kept the Rule of Two - in the old universe, this ended with the death of Sidious and Vader - so wanna-be-Siths were popping up left and right after that... dunno the back story of how Snoke became Sith.  This is the frustration of the buy-out - it's cool that we get new directors that are better than Lucas (in my opinion), but then those of us fangirls that have been following this thing since we were little kids, are disoriented... trying to figure out which is still true and which is now sunk into the abyss.

 

 

 

 

Man, I can write for days about this topic.

[Just_A_Guy]

To answer the question, Anakin Skywalker apppeared with Yoda and Obi-wan in their "glorified" state.  Vader was dead, and Skywalker was restored (i.e. saved).

 

And I don't think it's morally bankrupt at all.  Repentance and forgiveness are not prohibited by time or past acts (save denying the Holy Ghost.  Mark 3:28-29).  I believe there is a lot of discussion on whether Hitler could be saved.  I do find it interesting that his temple work was done, and never revoked.  I believe this follows this commandment: 

 

• Doctrine and Covenants 64:10

  10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

So, it is required that we forgive all men, and provide all opportunity for their forgiveness and salvation from the Lord.

 

Then why are we taught that David irretrievably lost his exaltation?

[Backroads]

Anatess, I already had to listen to about the same thing from my husband on the car ride home. Star Wars book readers. Sheesh. Though it was me who provided the Campbell stuff.

The movie.... I've seen it twice. Quite enjoyed it as long as we don't worry about planets with implausible geography.

And nothing else intrigues me this holiday season.

[Guest]

In the end I really enjoyed it and will happily shove money down Disney's throat for more.

 

Parts that bugged me: get more new characters! Sure it was nostalgic to see the same fish guy (General Ackbar) in the exact same setting but I could have just watched the older movie for that. Same with Nien Nunb (another fish looking guy). 

 

 

I actually liked that they did a nod to the old characters in the movie... it's the first movie of the new universe.  Showing the old characters gives us an idea of what is still true.  So, this first movie gives the message - we kept all the movies but junked the rest.  It's a smart move (although I'm not yet sure I like it) - because then both fan people and moviegoers start off on the same footing with this new universe.  Lots of fan people feel dissed, but I'm fairly certain lots more feel just fine about the shift even as they grumbled at first.

 

 

I actually felt bad for Kylo Ren that he, a trained sith, was beaten by someone so new to the force. Sure Rey knew how to fight, but what did she really know about the force? She was an infant, yet took Kylo to town. I don't mind at all that she kicked some but, but it just didnt seem she was ready for an all out battle like that. 

 

He wasn't a trained Sith yet, I don't think.  I'm assuming they followed the old rules of Sith apprenticeship.  Your apprenticeship training starts after you kill your attachments to loved ones (like Vader killing Jedi at the temple).  It's interesting that Kylo Ren is trying so hard to kill the light in him... he wanted so badly to be a Sith (reason not divulged yet).  He said Thank You to his father as he killed him... as he knew it is what he needed to finally start apprenticeship.  Snoke then told General Hux to go get Kylo Ren because he has training for him...

 

We are to assume, of course, that Hux managed to get Kylo off-planet before it blew up.

 

I'm not quite sure what the significance is of Snoke and Kylo not carrying the title of Darth...

[Guest]

Anatess, I already had to listen to about the same thing from my husband on the car ride home. Star Wars book readers. Sheesh.

 

And animated series watchers... and graphic novel readers... and...

[Guest Godless]

 

I actually felt bad for Kylo Ren that he, a trained sith, was beaten by someone so new to the force. Sure Rey knew how to fight, but what did she really know about the force? She was an infant, yet took Kylo to town. I don't mind at all that she kicked some but, but it just didnt seem she was ready for an all out battle like that. 

 

Fan theorists didn't miss that. A couple of the more interesting theories I've heard:

 

1) Kylo Ren is a self-appointed sleeper assassin for the Rebellion. That's why there's still some light in him, and that's why killing Han was so hard for him to do, but necessary for him to get close to Snoke. If this were the case, he might not be inclined to kill Rey as well.

 

2) Rey was one of the Jedi trainees under Luke. She has no memory of it, but her training has remained in tact (albeit dormant). That's why she was able to harness her power so quickly once she realized she had it.

 

These are just theories, obviously. I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff. I can't wait to see what the next movie has in store.

[Ironhold]

I actually felt bad for Kylo Ren that he, a trained sith, was beaten by someone so new to the force. Sure Rey knew how to fight, but what did she really know about the force? She was an infant, yet took Kylo to town. I don't mind at all that she kicked some but, but it just didnt seem she was ready for an all out battle like that. 

Remember, Ren was already badly injured by the time Rey got to him. Chewie got him with the bowcaster, then Finn got him a few times as well. Between his injuries and the likely loss of blood, he wouldn't have been anywhere close to full power. 

[Guest]

I was wondering if Finn is force-sensitive.  The first time I watched it, I thought... nah... if he was force-sensitive, R2D2 would have lit up when he got to the base.  But then, the second time I watched it, I thought... hmm... maybe R2D2 lit up not because Rey is force-sensitive but because.... Rey is related to Luke.  The 3rd time I watched it I thought... hmm... maybe R2D2 lit up not because Rey is related to Luke but that Luke left specific instructions to R2D2 to only divulge his location to Rey specifically.

 

Ugh.  Yes, yes... next movie can't come soon enough.  And yes, I realize I'm getting to be as old as Princess, erm, General Leia.

 

And yeah, my sister told me Princess Leia is now a Disney Princess...

[Vort]

I was wondering if Finn is force-sensitive.

 

 

And yeah, my sister told me Princess Leia is now a Disney Princess...

 

Ugh. That's disturbing.

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

BWAAAAHAHAHAHA!

[Vort]

BWAAAAHAHAHAHA!

[Guest]

 

UGH!  I don't know how I can un-see that.

 

I don't know why this remains popular with my kids.  I don't know why they like One Punch Man too.  I blame all of it on Princess Bubblegum! 

[beefche]

I was wondering if Finn is force-sensitive.  The first time I watched it, I thought... nah... if he was force-sensitive, R2D2 would have lit up when he got to the base.  But then, the second time I watched it, I thought... hmm... maybe R2D2 lit up not because Rey is force-sensitive but because.... Rey is related to Luke.  The 3rd time I watched it I thought... hmm... maybe R2D2 lit up not because Rey is related to Luke but that Luke left specific instructions to R2D2 to only divulge his location to Rey specifically.

 

Ugh.  Yes, yes... next movie can't come soon enough.  And yes, I realize I'm getting to be as old as Princess, erm, General Leia.

 

And yeah, my sister told me Princess Leia is now a Disney Princess...

 

 

Rey is related to Luke, methinks. In fact, I think she is his daughter. Notice how she lived on a desert planet, had a landspeeder, dressed like Luke, and has the Force aplenty. I think it is foreshadowed in this movie that she is his daughter. I think he left her for the same reason why he was hidden. I have no clue who her mother is, but I think we'll find out that the final battle will be a family affair--cousin vs. cousin. 

Ren wasn't fully trained. First, he left his Jedi training early and then Snoke says to the general guy to bring him Ren to complete his training. And I think Rey went to town on him because 1) Ren was wounded and tired from his earlier fight and 2) she had experience fighting with that pole thing. Not the same thing as a saber, I get that, but she used some of the same moves with the saber as she did with her pole thingy.

What I would want to see is Ren not gaining salvation. I didn't get the feeling that he was actually conflicted about killing his father. I understand that as he prayed to his grandfather, he stated he felt the Light pulling him. But, when his father showed up and offered to help him, Ren saw his opportunity to reject the Light and took it--no hesitation. And although I know that his mother can and will forgive him, if he is redeemed at the last, then it WILL be another rewrite of Episode IV. There's no doubt the Good will overcome Evil--I liked that foreshadow in the Ren vs. Rey fight in this movie, but I'm just so mad at Ren for killing his father and one of the best characters of all time. HE DESERVES TO ROT IN SITH HELL!  

 

[Anddenex]

I actually felt bad for Kylo Ren that he, a trained sith, was beaten by someone so new to the force. Sure Rey knew how to fight, but what did she really know about the force? She was an infant, yet took Kylo to town. I don't mind at all that she kicked some but, but it just didnt seem she was ready for an all out battle like that. 

 

Indeed, this is one part I felt was a little off base, especially after their first meeting (she was put fast asleep, and all he had to do was the same force move).

[The Folk Prophet]

In the end I really enjoyed it and will happily shove money down Disney's throat for more.

 

Parts that bugged me: get more new characters! Sure it was nostalgic to see the same fish guy (General Ackbar) in the exact same setting but I could have just watched the older movie for that. Same with Nien Nunb (another fish looking guy). 

 

I actually felt bad for Kylo Ren that he, a trained sith, was beaten by someone so new to the force. Sure Rey knew how to fight, but what did she really know about the force? She was an infant, yet took Kylo to town. I don't mind at all that she kicked some but, but it just didnt seem she was ready for an all out battle like that. 

 

Isn't the clear point that Kylo Ren was A) only partially trained and B) quite severely injured?

 

I had a bigger problem with the forceless Finn standing agains Kylo for so long.

[Ironhold]

Isn't the clear point that Kylo Ren was A) only partially trained and B) quite severely injured?

 

I had a bigger problem with the forceless Finn standing agains Kylo for so long.

Never underestimate what things like "pure adrenaline" and "raw fury" will do to / for a person. 

 

Trust me on this one.

 

Finn had just seen Ren cut his own father down in cold blood, and now it appeared that Rey was severely injured, if not dead. Finn was out for vengeance at that point, and only went down when he sustained enough damage to completely shock his system (thereby overpowering whatever was keeping him going); that he was hit in the back also raises the prospect of damage to the muscles in his back or even his spine, which would make it hard for him to move anyway. 

[EarlJibbs]

Isn't the clear point that Kylo Ren was A) only partially trained and B) quite severely injured?

 

I had a bigger problem with the forceless Finn standing agains Kylo for so long.

I just thought that even a partially trained sith that could stop a laser beam mid shot and one that could basically suck your thoughts/memory out of your head would be stronger in battle. Perhaps these manifest what his strengths are only, but not even Vader used the force to get the information he wanted, didn't he use torture? 

 

One question I want to pose to this group, since I have only been a huge fan of the movies and have not read any of the books regarding the Star Wars Universe; If you have the force, why don't they use it more often? For example, you can run fast, jump high, stop lasers, force push.... but they do not use it, it's more sparingly. Does it drain their energy? Perhaps it is more prevalent in the books? 

[The Folk Prophet]

Never underestimate what things like "pure adrenaline" and "raw fury" will do to / for a person. 

 

Trust me on this one.

 

Is this really relevant against the fictional theory of someone who has the force? Is rage really the Force's equivalent?

[The Folk Prophet]

I just thought that even a partially trained sith that could stop a laser beam mid shot and one that could basically suck your thoughts/memory out of your head would be stronger in battle. Perhaps these manifest what his strengths are only, but not even Vader used the force to get the information he wanted, didn't he use torture? 

 

I agree with this and find it moderately problematic to the show. Kylo had just exerted enough Force power to throw Rey across the forest, but then can't exert the same Force power to stop Finn?

[Guest]

I just thought that even a partially trained sith that could stop a laser beam mid shot and one that could basically suck your thoughts/memory out of your head would be stronger in battle. Perhaps these manifest what his strengths are only, but not even Vader used the force to get the information he wanted, didn't he use torture? 

 

One question I want to pose to this group, since I have only been a huge fan of the movies and have not read any of the books regarding the Star Wars Universe; If you have the force, why don't they use it more often? For example, you can run fast, jump high, stop lasers, force push.... but they do not use it, it's more sparingly. Does it drain their energy? Perhaps it is more prevalent in the books? 

 

Force-sensitive folks can have certain "talents" that comes easier to them than others.  Anakin, for example, is skilled at technical doodads and piloting anything that moves, Qui-Gonn is skilled at identifying force sensitivity in others, Palpatine is skilled at strategical planning, etc.

 

But Vader has shown he can read minds - he's been able to read Luke's mind without having to wave his hands over his face.

 

Leia, although untrained, is also force-sensitive.  As a daughter of Bail Organa who is a founding member of the rebellion, as well as a "hiding in plain sight" daughter of Anakin, she was specifically trained to resist torture and interrogation.  Her force-sensitivity enhanced this skill.

 

Now, stopping a laser beam in midflight... BOOM.  Unheard of force powers... never been done before (at least not in canon - maybe it's in a video game somewhere).  And then being able to hold it while doing something else... the force is strong with that one.

 

Using the force requires focus and concentration and yes, the more focus it requires, the more energy it expends as well and vice versa.  For example, because Yoda is a tiny fella, having to move a starship or stop a falling machine requires more focus and energy so much so that he couldn't do anything else simultaneously (don't ask me why he didn't just move Obi-Wan and Anakin instead, hah hah).  Anakin's favorite past time is to sit in the training room for younglings (where they were asked to find the missing planet) and let the player machine thingy run multiple narratives of planets and systems and technical stuff simultaneously and he would isolate each narrative separately in his head by splitting his brain's focus.  When his entire brain is completely focused and occupied, then he is at peace.

Edited December 29, 2015 by anatess

[Ironhold]

I just thought that even a partially trained sith that could stop a laser beam mid shot 

Ren was so busy watching Han fall to his death that he didn't notice Chewie lining up his shot. 

 

Kinda hard to block when you don't even see it happening.

[The Folk Prophet]

Ren was so busy watching Han fall to his death that he didn't notice Chewie lining up his shot. 

 

Kinda hard to block when you don't even see it happening.

 

Of course, by the Force (if attuned) you should "feel" it happening. Seeing shouldn't really be super relevant. It is indicative, methinks, and rightly so, that Kylo was powerful in the Force, but not completely trained yet -- and this was more than implied when Snoke says to bring Kylo to him so he can complete his training.

[Guest]

Ren was so busy watching Han fall to his death that he didn't notice Chewie lining up his shot. 

 

Kinda hard to block when you don't even see it happening.

 

 

Of course, by the Force (if attuned) you should "feel" it happening. Seeing shouldn't really be super relevant. It is indicative, methinks, and rightly so, that Kylo was powerful in the Force, but not completely trained yet -- and this was more than implied when Snoke says to bring Kylo to him so he can complete his training.

 

We are talking about Chewie's crossbow-looking-thingee.  Not some plain old laser blaster.  It's been shown repeatedly in the movie that it is one powerful thingamagig making ragdolls out of storm troopers.  It's a completely different thing to stop that blast with the Force.  BUT... Kylo is such a mean sucker that he was not only able to survive a gutshot from that crossbow, he walked it off!

 

The force is really strong with that one...

[bytebear]

I got the impression that Ren was sliding by, a poor student with limited skills, and so I had no problem with him being a poor fighter against Rey who had a lot of real world experience fighting with her staff.  Neither were using their light sabers in formal fighting standards for sword play (as the Director of the film revealed was specific and purposeful).

[Guest]

I haven't seen it yet.  And I don't really see any real spoilers here that aren't being blabbed about all over the place.

 

I'm getting a really bad impression about this film from what a lot have written.  I mainly want to know the following:

 

1) Was the acting good?

2) Was the scripting good?  We had so many really bad lines from E I - III.  It almost hurt to listen to them.

3) Were special effects used at the appropriate level?  E IV, I'd argue had too few.  E I - III were WAYYYY overboard.  E V and VI were just right.

4) Was there good choreography in the fight scenes?  E IV was good for its time.  E V was ok.  E VI was better.  I - III sucked.  The fight scenes were choreographed like a 12 year old had put it together.  I could have done a better job myself.

5) Were the space fight scenes entertaining or were they just a blur of eye candy?

 

If these are good, I can forgive a lot of the useless plot and so forth. At the end of the day, it is just a movie.