Future of an Ex-communicated Member.

[Guest MormonGator]

I am not saying I know what the leaders will do for an individual.  I am saying that if there is a individual who is complaining (or people complaining on their behalf) that the church will not accept their attempt at re-baptism.  And they are throwing around term like Un-Christ-like and Forgive 70 times 7 and all the other things that have come up in this thread.

 

I am not going to buy it.  Instead I am going to accept as a given that the Church leaders are being Christ-like and the individual in question simply isn't ready.  No matter how much they might proclaim (or others on their behalf) otherwise.

Well, that was me about the 70 times 7 thing. I stand by it too. Forgiveness is by far the best thing about being a Christian. That and eternal life. 

I'm also not complaining about church leadership. Like I've said many times, I totally support them. 

 

I wasn't arguing for anyone. I've never been excommunicated and hopefully that time won't come. In fact, when someone get excommunicated recently for the "female in the priesthood issue" I was openly supportive of the church,100% 

Edited December 30, 2015 by MormonGator

[estradling75]

Well, that was me about the 70 times 7 thing. I stand by it too. Forgiveness is by far the best thing about being a Christian. That and eternal life. 

I'm also not complaining about church leadership. Like I've said many times, I totally support them. 

 

 

I wasn't arguing for anyone. I've never been excommunicated and hopefully that time won't come. In fact, when someone get excommunicated recently for the "female in the priesthood issue" I was openly supportive of the church,100% 

 

Now swing back to the question of the thread.  Why don't certain people get certain calls?  If we believe that "A man must be called of God, by prophecy..."  Then the question should be a non starter.  Or one should get down on their knees and ask.  Thus the question itself shows a lack of understanding and/or a lack of faith in how Christ has instructed his Church to operate

[Guest]

Whenever something difficult or challenging is thrown in someone's lap, my MIL calls it an "opportunity". 

[askandanswer]

 Yes, even if you have your name removed and then come back later, that annotation survives.  Which means the church maintains a list of removed names.  

 

 

 

If this is true, then it doesn't seem to be consistent with Doctrine and Covenants 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. From what I recall, this verse is frequently quoted in talks on repentance and forgiveness and the forgetting of the sin is held out as one of the blessings of forgiveness. Does this mean that the Lord forgets but His church remembers? Perhaps the existence of a list of removed names suggests a lack of confidence in the ability of local leaders to not call a convicted child rapist to serve in nursery. If the calling is prayed about by the local bishop and a confirmation is received, (however surprising that might be) shouldn't that be enough? And if it is enough, why then does the church need to retain a list of removed or annotated names?

[NeuroTypical]

The Lord doesn't keep a database, and the fact that we do, don't hinder His ability to forgive and remember sins no more.  We humans that run His church, that are humanly responsible for human efforts to protect the flock, do keep records.  Our work is to judge righteous judgment.  It totally precludes judging a soul's state in the eyes of God, but totally includes judging a person's actions and behaviors when considering which calling to offer them.  Local unit leadership does such judging constantly, annotation or not.

 

We're commanded to forgive, regardless of another's repentance or lack thereof.  The Lord promises to forgive and remember no more after one repents.  Different.  (And for the record, nowhere are we commanded to sacrifice our children at the altar of forgiving someone who may or may not have repented.  Forgiveness doesn't mean ignoring reality, or putting our innocents at risk of serious harm.)

 

Again - the practical reality of the situation: For every truly repentant former pedophile who is now totally forgiven and fully engaged in the work of the Lord, there are a handful of sexual predators who are more than happy to move around from stake to stake looking for new victims.  They'll exploit any angle, including getting rebaptized as a way to gain access to underage children.  They are often charismatic, warm, friendly, and good with kids.  The church would be doing the members a disservice if it didn't have defenses against such people.  Let them be an EQ instructor, or work in the library, or be a membership clerk, or what have you.  No reason to ignore recidivism rates, not to mention the feelings of past victims, and make them Cubmasters.  If the church had a liquor cabinet, how many recovering alcoholics would be given the calling of stocking it?

Edited December 30, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[The Folk Prophet]

Why are people insistent on applying principles of personal behavior and morality to the church as an organization? The church isn't a man. It doesn't have the requirement to forgive 70 times 7 or forgive and forget in the ways that individuals do.

[askandanswer]

 Why? Shouldn't we forgive people the famous 70 times 7 that Jesus said? 

I'm not sure that even 70 times 7 would be enough for a lover of punk :) 

[askandanswer]

 

Also, ex-communication and reinstatement is recorded.  The reason is that if a person is ex-communicated twice, that's it.  There's no third baptism.

 

Is this true? So the church has a two strikes and your out - for eternity - rule? If this is true, that would seem to place some limits on God's mercy that I was previously unaware of. Of course, there always have been such limits, but this two strikes and your out rule seems to be a new one. 

[Guest]

Not exactly about excommunication, but about the two strikes thing.

D&C 42:24-26

D&C 132:27

 

Excommunication is a serious business.

 

Now, I'll have to admit that this is what I was told as a kid.  Church policy may have changed since then.  I'll look up some more on the matter if I can find anything.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[Vort]

D&C 42:24-26

 

So, then, that would mean that no, you do not have any evidence other than a scriptural gloss. Correct?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Vort

[Guest]

Ok.  This is apparently a myth.  I've done a bunch of searching and I'm finding many people mentioning coming back twice (that is, being baptized three times total).  I'm not finding anything on people being baptized a fourth time.  But I guess it doesn't matter.

 

So, sorry.  I was wrong.  It was what I was told when I was a kid.  And I've never tried to verify it since then.  It just seemed to make sense to me at the time.  I guess it's just a matter of getting more and more difficult each time.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[bytebear]

I have found that on just about every policy there is a caveat that you can take it to the First Presidency for review.  I interpret that as being, the local leaders do not have authority to circumvent current policy and must comply, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the policy. 

[bytebear]

I have found that on just about every policy there is a caveat that you can take it to the First Presidency for review.  I interpret that as being, the local leaders do not have authority to circumvent current policy and must comply, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the policy. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm not sure that even 70 times 7 would be enough for a lover of punk :)

LOL! That's awesome

Edited December 30, 2015 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

Is this true? So the church has a two strikes and your out - for eternity - rule? If this is true, that would seem to place some limits on God's mercy that I was previously unaware of. Of course, there always have been such limits, but this two strikes and your out rule seems to be a new one.

We do not know what will happen before the pleasing bar of Christ, but I asked specifically in the Temple about people who were excommunicated and died without coming back into the Church. The sealer (who solicited our questions) said that these people could not be re-baptized by proxy for the dead.

Not quite the same thing, but it seems to have some relevance here.

Lehi

[Vort]

I asked specifically in the Temple about people who were excommunicated and died without coming back into the Church. The sealer (who solicited our questions) said that these people could not be re-baptized by proxy for the dead.

 

I totally, absolutely, and unconditionally disbelieve this. Either you misunderstood the sealer or he misspoke. I will believe this if an apostle tells me, or someone who I am confident speaks for the apostles in such matters. Otherwise, huh-uh.

[LeSellers]

I totally, absolutely, and unconditionally disbelieve this. Either you misunderstood the sealer or he misspoke. I will believe this if an apostle tells me, or someone who I am confident speaks for the apostles in such matters. Otherwise, huh-uh.

Very nearly certain I did not misunderstand. He went on for at least five minutes on the matter.

You might ask your Temple President, or the bishop or stake president.

Lehi

[Vort]

You might ask your Temple President, or the bishop or stake president.

 

I might do that, if I remember to. But this is so hard for me to believe that I'd be a bit embarrassed to ask it.

[LeSellers]

I might do that, if I remember to. But this is so hard for me to believe that I'd be a bit embarrassed to ask it.

Blame it on me.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

Blame it on me.

Lehi

Good rule of thumb in life: When something goes wrong, blame LeSellers. 

I got arrested for robbing a bank once, and the cops let me go after I blamed LeSellers. 

Heck, Bill Cosby should try it too. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by MormonGator

[Palerider]

We do not know what will happen before the pleasing bar of Christ, but I asked specifically in the Temple about people who were excommunicated and died without coming back into the Church. The sealer (who solicited our questions) said that these people could not be re-baptized by proxy for the dead.Not quite the same thing, but it seems to have some relevance here.Lehi

Did this Sealer say this was the Gospel or this was his Opinion ? I'm curious

Edited December 31, 2015 by Palerider

[Just_A_Guy]

I totally, absolutely, and unconditionally disbelieve this. Either you misunderstood the sealer or he misspoke. I will believe this if an apostle tells me, or someone who I am confident speaks for the apostles in such matters. Otherwise, huh-uh.

 

As of 2009, at least in theory they needed 1st Presidency approval per CHI Book 1.  (Secondary source)

 

That said, I have no idea how you would enforce that since I don't think FamilySearch automatically cross-references with the LDS Church's own membership records.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[David13]

Nope. 

 

What I am saying is we should be very careful about closing the door. The person we excommunicate today might be the leader of the church tomorrow. You don't know what you might be missing because you can't see into the future. 

 

What we might be missing?  Like, maybe we might be missing 'the New Morality'? 

There are easy churches out there, that don't care what sins you continue to commit.

dc

[Guest MormonGator]

What we might be missing?  Like, maybe we might be missing 'the New Morality'? 

There are easy churches out there, that don't care what sins you continue to commit.

dc

Oh I don't think anyone is missing anything, it's just a different perspective. 

And I didn't join the church because I thought it would be "easy". I was looking for truth. But never confuse "truth" with "I have a license to be cold, dogmatic, cruel and ignore how hard it is to be LDS."  

We are all brothers and sister is the end. What unites us is the glorious Book of Mormon. To me, the rest is gravy. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

Just by way of interjection on the temple sealer as expert thing...um...not. They're just brethren in the church who have been called as sealers, which, of course, they must be worthy for, but it doesn't make them one bit more educated, intelligent, or otherwise qualified as any sort of expert witnesses on much. I mean, I gotta tell you, some of the stuff I hear various ordinance worked talking about is pretty off the wall sometimes. Some are smart and well educated. Some are dumb as rocks. Some are dumb as rock and think they're smart and well educated.

Edited December 31, 2015 by The Folk Prophet