"Christians" obtaining the Celestial Kingdom

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

Kinda like these?

[fancy images were here]

Yes, exactly, though I was thinking maybe a fancier font - something scripty or papyrusy.

[mordorbund]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

I like cute cat pictures as much as the next man (unless that next man is @slamjet), but this seems really incongruent with the message.

[zil]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

(... If my sig weren't already overly long, I'd probably add it on there.)

Except, as I just noticed, you don't have a sig - no one does!  (Off to be the first! Bwa ha ha haaaaaa!  Later: Drat!  Thwarted by the upgrade - or blindness - I can't see a way to have sigs now.)

[The Folk Prophet]

25 minutes ago, Vort said:

Agreed. If you read my answer carefully, I think (hope) you will see that is essentially what I said.

I got that. I was cherry picking your first "maybe" thing to add to JaG's to further a point.

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

Except, as I just noticed, you don't have a sig - no one does!  (Off to be the first! Bwa ha ha haaaaaa!  Later: Drat!  Thwarted by the upgrade - or blindness - I can't see a way to have sigs now.)

Oh, wow. I don't. Huh. That's...a real bummer. I don't think I can reproduce it.

[Jojo Bags]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:28 AM, Carborendum said:

So, my question for the forum is: What are your thoughts on people that appear to be very good by earthly standards, but don't accept the Gospel here as it is presented to them?

Turning to the scriptures is the best way to answer this.

Quote

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–76)

 

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

(Doctrine and Covenants 137:7–9)

It all depends on the person's mindset as to whether or not they would have accepted the Gospel with all their heart. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are deceived by the craftiness of men, both in and out of the Church. In the end, only our Heavenly Father will know who would have accepted the Gospel with all his heart.

[Traveler]

My father use to say – you are today what you have been working throughout eternity to become.  I am convinced that we will enter the Kingdom of glory that we desire in the very core of our being to be a part of.  Anyone that actually desires to be in the Celestial Kingdom will end up there.  I believe the reason the scripture gives qualifying explanations of the kingdoms is to give us a general idea of this very principle.  Obviously those that love adultery will not be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

This may seem odd but I believe those that love righteousness will seek out righteousness.  I believe mortality is so designed that by time we experience mortality plus a time in the spirit world – that we will have all the time and experience necessary to find exactly what we are looking for.  It is so obvious to me I do not understand why anyone thinks to argue any points concerning salvation.  Those that do not like being around Celestial types will find their happiness associating with those that they are most comfortable with.   I do not believe that our salvation is in any way like receiving a grade in school in that we may think we deserve better but just cannot qualify.  We will and are about choosing what we will be and the kingdom in which we belong.  The official word used in scripture to describe this choice that we alone will make and no one (not even G-d) will force upon us – is called Agency.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Obviously those that love adultery will not be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

The problem I have with this is that every one of us "loves" adultery at some level in our "natural man". The question is whether we put off the natural man.

[Traveler]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The problem I have with this is that every one of us "loves" adultery at some level in our "natural man". The question is whether we put off the natural man.

Hmmmmmm - I can definitely speak for myself in this matter.  The more I observe and learn of adultery the more I abhor it.  I believe you will find with a careful reading of scripture that the great purpose of this probation is to obtain a knowledge of good and evil – which will afford us an actual choice.  But perhaps you can clarify more of your view in this matter – are you saying we do not exercise our agency out of what we love and desire most?  That – that which was in our heart from the beginning is not actually made manifested through our agency during our probation?

[Jojo Bags]

17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The problem I have with this is that every one of us "loves" adultery at some level in our "natural man". The question is whether we put off the natural man.

I'm not sure where you get this, but I despise adultery.  I was the victim of an adulterous woman in two separate marriages.  My wife is also one who despises adultery.  I'm sure the GA's also despise adultery. 

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Hmmmmmm - I can definitely speak for myself in this matter.  The more I observe and learn of adultery the more I abhor it.  I believe you will find with a careful reading of scripture that the great purpose of this probation is to obtain a knowledge of good and evil – which will afford us an actual choice.  But perhaps you can clarify more of your view in this matter – are you saying we do not exercise our agency out of what we love and desire most?  That – that which was in our heart from the beginning is not actually made manifested through our agency during our probation?

I'm saying that we choose what we love and desire most. The idea that we "just do" love and desire things and that's just the way it is and that controls what we ultimately become denies agency and choice. The idea that what we love controls the exercising of our agency is backwards. The exercising of our agency controls what we love.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

I'm not sure where you get this, but I despise adultery. 

There are lots of things I despise. Open your mind a bit and see the bigger picture point here. If we give into the natural man we will embrace things that we shouldn't. It's not literally about "adultery".

Edited February 27, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There are lots of things I despise. Open your mind a bit and see the bigger picture point here. If we give into the natural man we will embrace things that we shouldn't. It's not literally about "adultery".

It is the bigger picture I am trying to understand - why would anyone give into the natural man?   Do you know of a scripture that perhaps gives us the answer?  Hint - what is the agency of man?

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is the bigger picture I am trying to understand - why would anyone give into the natural man?

Because it is our physical nature to do so.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Because it is our physical nature to do so.

I actually had an interesting thought as I was thinking about this thread. Is the "natural man" only the physical? Did we not have agency to choose between humility and/or pride, right and/or wrong, faith and/or faithlessness., etc., in the pre-existence?

The "carnal man" is certainly referring to the physical. The "natural man" may be broader than that.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is the bigger picture I am trying to understand - why would anyone give into the natural man?   Do you know of a scripture that perhaps gives us the answer?  Hint - what is the agency of man?

Let's not be cryptic please. I am well enough versed in scripture. Say what you're trying to say.

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I actually had an interesting thought as I was thinking about this thread. Is the "natural man" only the physical? Did we not have agency to choose between humility and/or pride, right and/or wrong, faith and/or faithlessness., etc., in the pre-existence?

The "carnal man" is certainly referring to the physical. The "natural man" may be broader than that.

I agree with you, but when we are talking about adultery, I think the story begins with the physical. (I don't think it ends there, though.)

[The Folk Prophet]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with you, but when we are talking about adultery, I think the story begins with the physical. (I don't think it ends there, though.)

Well, yes. With physical things the natural man is...expressed physically.

But the broad point I'm trying to get at is that I don't believe for a second that we just are who we are and accordingly we'll end up in the kingdom best suited for who we just are and that we have no ability to choose and overcome who we just are.

Edited February 27, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But the broad point I'm trying to get at is that I don't believe for a second that we just are who we are and accordingly we'll end up in the kingdom best suited for who we just are and that we have no ability to choose and overcome who we just are.

I agree with that. I was answering, perhaps very narrowly, Traveler's question about why one might follow the natural man down the path of adultery. It's all too common and all too real.

[Traveler]

26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Let's not be cryptic please. I am well enough versed in scripture. Say what you're trying to say.

 Are you well versed in this scripture?

D&C 93:30-31

Quote

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Hint - what is the agency of man?  I do not believe it is an acclivity to commit adultery.  This is what I am trying to communicate.  As I understand – the natural man is in opposition to intelligence (the light of truth) and those that pursue the “natural man” will do so – not because it is something that all (all including Jesus?) will do but something that was from the beginning - even before they were mortal.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

My father use to say – you are today what you have been working throughout eternity to become.

I believe this.  In fact, similar to (but not the same as) how God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, I believe each of us is also the same yesterday, today, and forever.  By that, I don't mean we haven't changed, nor that we don't use our agency (the above quote is clearly all about agency, from eternity past through eternity future).  What I mean is that at any given point and time you have (had) n choices.  When you pick one, it's because all your previous choices have made you* into the person who would make that choice.  And by making that choice, you then close off some options (even if only the option to not make that choice), and open up other choices.  Thus, who we were forms who we are - even when we choose to repent, return, and try to change who we are, it's because that's the kind of choice our prior use of agency has led us to make.

* For me, this is the same as saying, "I have chosen to be this person."  (It's not a passive, external entity forcing you to be something; by your history of choices, you have chosen to be someone.)

This might sound to some like a denial of agency, but to me, it is the obvious consequence of using agency: a person who chooses good, in spite of temptation, is a different person from the one who chooses to give in to temptation (not that anyone is one or the other, I'm just simplifying the point).

Does that mean that person X was condemned from the start of eternity to love adultery?  Only if they chose that path from the beginning, and never chose to get off that path.  Does it mean that person Y never loved adultery, despite the "natural man"?  I think it's certainly possible, if they chose a different path (at whatever point), and were fortunate enough in mortality that this particular temptation was not a problem for that particular individual.

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 Are you well versed in this scripture?

D&C 93:30-31

What do you think? Why are you so condescending sometimes? I could understand it if you didn't know me. But you've interacted with me enough to know darned well that I'm familiar with these concepts. Stop patronizing me.

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 Hint - what is the agency of man?  I do not believe it is an acclivity to commit adultery.  This is what I am trying to communicate.  As I understand – the natural man is in opposition to intelligence (the light of truth) and those that pursue the “natural man” will do so – not because it is something that all (all including Jesus?) will do but something that was from the beginning - even before they were mortal.

And I think your understanding is mistaken at best and entirely contrary the whole plan of salvation.

[spamlds]

I am always a bit dismayed when it takes two pages of discussions before we actually turn to the scriptures for a plain answer.  The real question to be answered is this: "Has God revealed the requirements to enter the celestial kingdom of heaven."  The answer to that is that he did, in Section 76 of the D&C, specifically verses 50 through 70.  To enter the celestial kingdom the following are required:

--Baptism by proper authority (including proxy baptism in a temple) and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (confiirmation).  It also requires remaining faithful and overcoming trials of faith.

Quote

 

 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

 

For males, ordination to the Melchizedek priesthood (which can also done by proxy for the dead) is needed:

Quote

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

And of course, all these things are dependent wholly upon the grace of Christ through his atonement.

Quote

 

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

 

Of course, none of us wish to judge another person's standing before God.  The Lord is clear about the requirements for each kingdom.  We don't know the hearts of others, but we also know from the scripture that he works according to our desires.  If a person desires the most glorious gospel blessings, the Holy Spirit will prepare his heart to receive them in this life or in the spirit world before the resurrection and judgment (D&C 137:9. 

I think this is where the differences between the celestial and terrestrial kingdom emerges among Mormons and sectarian Christians.  Their desires are shaped by what they are taught is possible.  Their creeds teach them that the best they can expect is to not burn in hell and to live in a place where they can see Jesus, living eternally in a resurrected state.  That is a good description of the terrestrial kingdom. 

When they are taught the doctrines of the Restoration--which include restoration of priesthood, celestial marriage, etc., they will either accept it or reject it.  When they accept it, these aspirations become part of their desires.  God grants them according to their desires and they receive the opportunity to receive the ordinances necessary to receive those blessings.

Those who reject the Restoration, reject those teachings and ordinances.  Those aspirations do not become part of their desires.  Since they disbelieve it or don't desire it, they won't seek those blessings and won't receive the necessary ordinances.  They will get what they desired and not one thing more.  They desired the conditions that exist in the terrestrial kingdom.  They will count themselves blessed to be there because they receive that which they desired.

What we believe and what we desire determines what we DO.  That's why our works have a role in our destiny as well as faith and grace.

I encourage everyone to read D&C 76 with that in mind--how does what we desire interact with what is truly possible?

 

[Jojo Bags]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 11:10 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm saying that we choose what we love and desire most. The idea that we "just do" love and desire things and that's just the way it is and that controls what we ultimately become denies agency and choice. The idea that what we love controls the exercising of our agency is backwards. The exercising of our agency controls what we love.

My wife is very fond of saying this simple truth: we each have a preference for either good or evil.  For that matter, we also have a preference for apathy; an "I don't care" attitude.  Ultimately, through the exercise of our agency, we do choose what we prefer: God or Satan.  I say it in this very black and white way because there is no luke warm with our Heavenly Father.  You are either progressing or regressing; there is no sitting still.

[Guest]

It is easy enough to just have faith and know that God will be just and fair in the end.  That's a simple answer.  But my curiosity just begs me to ask about the details.  I don't think it is enough that we "know not, save the Lord commanded".  I'm not setting myself up as the judge.  I just wonder.  I believe pondering these sorts of things invites the Spirit to teach us things.  If we don't receive an answer, then we don't receive an answer.  But we should try to ponder and pray about all sorts of things.  And I also believe that if we can learn more about God's judgments, it improves our own judgments.

A part of my discussion with my friend that I skimmed over was that he said that most members think that if you had a missionary knock at your door and you refused them, that was it.  You don't get another shot.

My response was.  "What does the D&C ACTUALLY SAY?"  It had been long enough that he had forgotten the specifics.  We don't know what is considered and "adequate opportunity".  Just a knock at the door doesn't necessarily mean they had an opportunity to hear the gospel.  Having been friends with a Mormon for years and even having many discussions about it may not be enough.  What is the actual requirement?  This is where we can be fuzzy on the verdict.

Part of me believes it could be different for each person.  Only the Lord really knows how much is needed for each person to "have an opportunity" to accept it.  That's why I can speculate that this man I spoke of could have the opportunity in the next life.

I just wanted to get other people's ideas.