Earth Life, a proving ground for who?

[NeedleinA]

So I've been thinking about one of the answers that is commonly given for "Why are we here (on earth)? What is the purpose?". One of the common answers that comes to mind..."So we can be tried & tested to see if we will do the things that HF asks us to do".  Kind of like, prove ourselves to him. Hum... double hum... why not a triple hum. 

Does HF know us, really truly know us individually? In addition does HF know everything? If he knows everything and knows us, does that mean he already knows which kingdom we will inherit? If he already knows which kingdom we will inherit and it is no surprise to him, then... wouldn't it seem logical that we are not here to prove anything to HF, but rather... we are here to prove to "ourselves" what we are made of. Earth life feels more like a place where we come to work things out with ourselves, so that once we do receive a kingdom, we will know in our heart of hearts that we received the correct kingdom. 

I know a little wish washy in my explaining, but how about the core idea?

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Jojo Bags]

16 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

So I've been thinking about one of the answers that is commonly given for "Why are we here (on earth)? What is the purpose?". One of the common answers that comes to mind..."So we can be tried & tested to see if we will do the things that HF asks us to do".  Kind of like, prove ourselves to him. Hum... double hum... why not a triple hum. 

Does HF know us, really truly know us individually? In addition does HF know everything? If he knows everything and knows us, does that mean he already knows which kingdom we will inherit? If he already knows which kingdom we will inherit and it is no surprise to him, then... wouldn't it seem logical that we are not here to prove anything to HF, but rather... we are here to prove to "ourselves" what we are made of. Earth life feels more like a place where come to work things out with ourselves, so that once we do receive a kingdom, we will know in our heart of hearts that we received the correct kingdom. 

I know a little wish washy in my explaining, but how about the core idea?

 

I've said this same thing to other people and have discussed it with my wife.  God is God because he has all knowledge.  He knows what we will do, but as you've pointed out, we have things to prove to ourselves. 

[The Folk Prophet]

32 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

So I've been thinking about one of the answers that is commonly given for "Why are we here (on earth)? What is the purpose?". One of the common answers that comes to mind..."So we can be tried & tested to see if we will do the things that HF asks us to do".  Kind of like, prove ourselves to him. Hum... double hum... why not a triple hum. 

Does HF know us, really truly know us individually? In addition does HF know everything? If he knows everything and knows us, does that mean he already knows which kingdom we will inherit? If he already knows which kingdom we will inherit and it is no surprise to him, then... wouldn't it seem logical that we are not here to prove anything to HF, but rather... we are here to prove to "ourselves" what we are made of. Earth life feels more like a place where we come to work things out with ourselves, so that once we do receive a kingdom, we will know in our heart of hearts that we received the correct kingdom. 

I know a little wish washy in my explaining, but how about the core idea?

 

I think your using the word "prove" in a different way than it is used in the scriptures and conflating the usage to create a logical fallacy.

[NeedleinA]

I'm all ears to hear correction. If the word "prove" is the hold up, could we substitute something in its place? Again, I openly admit that my explanation might have been "wishy washy", however... is the core idea logical fallacy? If so, I'm all ears and here to learn.

[Jojo Bags]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think your using the word "prove" in a different way than it is used in the scriptures and conflating the usage to create a logical fallacy.

I understood exactly what he was trying to say.  He might not have used the word in the same way another might, but it was very logical to me.  Great minds think alike.

[zil]

@NeedleinA I believe Abraham 3:25

Quote

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

"Prove" likely means "try" or "test" (as indicated in footnotes of various other verses), but "prove" in the modern meaning works just as well here.  The verse doesn't say to whom.  There's also the verse about "working out our own salvation" - I also believe we are here to learn for ourselves, not only who we really want to be (already are), but also how to be that person* (mortality being necessary for both); and perhaps also so we can't argue we were never given a fair shake - this is the fairest of shakes.

I also wonder, as I've mentioned elsewhere, if the glory of God's presence (however we experienced that as spirits) wasn't nearly overwhelming (clearly not entirely or Satan wouldn't have had such success), and that's why mortality is necessary - some wouldn't believe it if told who they really were, all need mortality to gain mastery of who they really are.

Personal opinions / thoughts, subject to change upon receipt of further light and knowledge.

*Later Edit: "how to continue to improve ourselves and be the best us we can be" (or, I suppose, in some cases, how to continue to not improve, or how to continue our descent).

Edited February 27, 2016 by zil

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

So I've been thinking about one of the answers that is commonly given for "Why are we here (on earth)? What is the purpose?". One of the common answers that comes to mind..."So we can be tried & tested to see if we will do the things that HF asks us to do".  Kind of like, prove ourselves to him. Hum... double hum... why not a triple hum. 

Does HF know us, really truly know us individually? In addition does HF know everything? If he knows everything and knows us, does that mean he already knows which kingdom we will inherit? If he already knows which kingdom we will inherit and it is no surprise to him, then... wouldn't it seem logical that we are not here to prove anything to HF, but rather... we are here to prove to "ourselves" what we are made of. Earth life feels more like a place where we come to work things out with ourselves, so that once we do receive a kingdom, we will know in our heart of hearts that we received the correct kingdom. 

I know a little wish washy in my explaining, but how about the core idea?

At some point, the "life as a test" model fails. In our common speech, a "test" is a highly artificial demonstration of our knowledge. The best tests try to be practical, but in most academic settings a test is little more than a chance to explain, or regurgitate, classroom knowledge. The test itself is not designed to teach us anything; it is designed solely to determine whether we can recall what we are supposed to recall.

Life is not like that. Life is a part of our eternal existence. It is a "test" in the sense that we are tried, but our growth actually lies in those trials. The "tests" are the purifying furnace, the molding force that shapes us. We aren't trying to "show God" something he doesn't already know, or even something he does already know. We are learning, or else failing to learn, to be obedient to the Father and do all things whatsoever we are commanded.

[NeedleinA]

33 minutes ago, zil said:

 also believe we are here to learn for ourselves, ... so we can't argue we were never given a fair shake - this is the fairest of shakes.

This really is the gist of where I was trying to go previously. We will have learned for ourselves that once we inherit a kingdom, that it is fair. Not simply because HF says it is fair, but we will know it ourselves in our heart that it was fair. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by NeedleinA

[NeedleinA]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

We aren't trying to "show God" something he doesn't already know, or even something he does already know. We are learning, or else failing to learn, to be obedient to the Father and do all things whatsoever we are commanded.

Yes. Now if I could combine what Zil & Vort said into my original post, that would have sounded more educated than my chop-chop version. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by NeedleinA

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said:

I understood exactly what he was trying to say.  He might not have used the word in the same way another might, but it was very logical to me.  Great minds think alike.

That's not what I'm saying, oh great minded one.  I'm saying he's using the word differently than it's used in the scriptures.

[Guest]

Another definition of prove:

the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial:

Trials are to help us learn and grow.  My sister once caught me in a logical twist.  I told her she could not play the flute.  She said,"Yes, I can. I just haven't learned how yet."

The fact is that as we were in pre-mortality we simply didn't have the growth and learning to do certain things.  So, we had to come here to develop those traits required to do all that we could.  

God knows all things as they are and as they are to come.  He knew we were not the beings that could do A, B, or C.  But He knew that with the right training, we could do them.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think the story of Job is a good example of what it means to be proven in this life.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@NeedleinA I love your pst, and agree. One of the main indictators, for me, that the proving is for US is in the truth behind the joke "I know the Lord won't give me more than I can handle, but I wish he didn't trust me so much." 

The Lord clearly knows better than we do what we are capable of. This life appears to be evidence that we need to learn what we are capable of. 

[Blackmarch]

I agree quite a bit with the idea in the OP a lot of the test will be finding out and proving ourselves more for the benefit of us rather than the benefit of God. But the merit of knowledge or foreknowledge does not outweigh the requirements of Justice. Even if we knew with perfectness how we would behave in every single situation and pressure in the future we would still have to go through with this.

[Traveler]

It appears that some responding really have not pondered or thought much on this subject.  Obviously there are a lot of spirits that come to this life and do not "prove" anything to anyone and certainly not what many think is necessary as a proof.  Let me give a couple of examples - a newborn that takes one breath and dies.  Someone with sever mental disabilities that is never accountable for anything.

 

From scripture we should learn that is is necessary to have an "earthly" experience for the following reasons:

1. To gain a physical body

2. To participate in the fall

3. To learn (by experience) the good from the evil.

4. To express our agency.

 

As near as I can determine there are the fundamental reasons we experience mortality.  A few things I would add to the questions going on concerning our probation:

1. Despite what seem to be the tenor of many of the responses - our probation does not begin with our earth life.  Therefore, I believe that attempting to isolate any proof of who or what we are by considering just that which we experience between birth and death is a fallacy that will only lead us to false conclusions.

2. Despite what many seem to think - our probation does not end with our physical death.  Also - part of our probation experience is a spiritual death.  It would appear that many are not taking this into account and seem to think we are expected to behave as if we really are not in a spiritually dead condition - for example thinking that it is somehow possible to even come close to keeping all G-d's commandments.  In essence there is very little that is good that can be proven to G-d, ourselves or anyone else as fallen beings.  Those that are at in a "rush" to judge themselves or others while in this fallen state - are making a very silly mistake.

3. There is nothing that we can do (prove) during our probation that will exclude us or qualify us from or for any eternal blessing or opportunity.  Rather we need to Humble ourselves to beg and plead for Mercy (repentance) and accept G-d's love and mercy as extended through the Atonement of Christ.  Those of you that think you are capable of doing anything in and of yourselves to prove or qualify anything are nuts, on the wrong track and are not paying attention - to life experience or scripture.

 

The Traveler

Edited February 29, 2016 by Traveler

[NeedleinA]

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It appears that some responding really have not pondered or thought much on this subject... 

Those of you that think you are capable of doing anything in and of yourselves to prove or qualify anything are nuts, on the wrong track and are not paying attention...

I'm not even sure you're referring to me and I'm offended.

If you could, please explain what any of your post above has to do with understanding the word "prove" as it was presented in the OP.

[Traveler]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not even sure you're referring to me and I'm offended.

If you could, please explain what any of your post above has to do with understanding the word "prove" as it was presented in the OP.

I do not think we experience mortality to "prove" anything to anybody.  Not to G-d nor to ourselves.  For example I think and believe G-d knows everything that can or will happen to us and how we will or can respond to what can or will happen to us.  And I do not believe that G-d is a being of the nature to force anyone to blindly come to earth without a clue of how things will or can turn out.  I believe we made a choice to come to earth will full knowledge (not in ignorance) of what our experience here would involve.  I do not believe we chose to follow G-d only to be surprised by the outcome of which we had no foresight into or inclining of.

 

I think it is quite possible that we were involved in planning every detail of our mortal experience.  I see no reason to believe that we were not involved and so engaged but somehow kept "in the dark" concerning anything.  Rather I believe we were beings of light and truth as sons and daughter of G-d and had a full and complete understanding of what we would be getting ourselves into should we elect to have a fallen mortal existence.  The proof of what we are was established and known before we came to mortality. 

 

The Traveler

Edited February 29, 2016 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

not paying attention - to life experience or scripture.

It's humorous to have you say such a thing immediately after saying other things that are contrary to scripture.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think we experience mortality to "prove" anything to anybody...

I'll try again with this: Abraham 3:25

What do you think "prove" means in this verse?

[The Folk Prophet]

The point of being proven is to be tested, not to provide unknown knowledge, and the reason we must be tested in spite of the fact that God already knows the outcome is because God is, and must remain, perfectly just. 

[Guest]

That was directed at Traveler, not you, FP.

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That was directed at Traveler, not you, FP.

I wasn't responding to you either. Just happened to follow your post.

[Guest]

okie-dokie.  Or is it okey-dokey?  Honkey-Dorey?  Milli-Vanilli?          Ratta-tat-tat and a magpie stew?

Shave and a haircut ... Two Bits.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

I don't think being here is about proving anything to ourselves so much as it's about learning.  If there's an eternal progression, then this is us learning, gaining wisdom so we can handle it.  This is why we have Salvation.  If we successfully learn what we need to know here, then we passed the course, and it doesn't make much difference in the final grade whether we were living according to the rules from day 1, or whether we learned later in life and came to Christ.