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Sunday21

Sunday21

Posted
Posted

Oh no. The worst, the mind boggling worst is Montreal. Driving in Montreal is an experience never to be forgotten. Montreal drivers are the reason that they invented the subway - pure fear forces you underground. It is either be buried 6 feet under or descend into the subway. I had a favorite curry house on the second floor of a busy street with a big window. My friends and I would   eat and watch the drivers. It is not just the drivers but the pedestrians. They launch themselves into traffic with a death wish that is bone chilling to behold. One summer when I was there, the city had the police cadets try to persuade the pedestrians not to jaywalk. No effect whatsoever although the poor boys did try!

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Vort
Vort

Actually, I would argue that Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard are not taken seriously precisely because they are hypocrites (of the hypocritical kind). They are the latest version of Jim and Tammy Faye

The Folk Prophet
The Folk Prophet

I think the only real answer to what Jesus would do if He were in our shoes in our time, etc., is to follow the Spirit. I think many people (including myself) just do things because everyone does and

The Folk Prophet
The Folk Prophet

Quite the contrary. It was because they were not obedient. Sure, they were obedient to their man made laws. But they disregarded God's laws. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they obeyed --

Guest MormonGator

Guest MormonGator

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Oh no. The worst, the mind boggling worst is Montreal.

Sunday, you made my night. I grew up in northern NH, so I used to drive to Montreal all the time. I grew up surrounded by Boston Bruins/Red Sox fans, so naturally I became a huge Expos and Canadians fan. You Quebecers got nothing on Boston

Edited by MormonGator
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Sunday21

Sunday21

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7 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Gator, Seriously? Boston is worse than Montreal? That is a high standard of mania! I bow in respect to the insanity of Boston drivers. They must be truly devilish. I will have to make a trip to see this mania. Not by car! Maybe a bus trip!

Forgot to quote Gator! Answer above!

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The Folk Prophet

The Folk Prophet

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Good thought. To perhaps extend the thought -- All else being equal, so safety and other "spirit of the law" things are equally met at the speed limit, at 10 under, or at 10 over, how does the sinless Savior of the world treat laws like speed limit laws? Exact obedience unless there is a good reason to go 10 over (ox in the more kind of thing)? Or whatever He feels like at the time?

I am reminded of this discussion:

To quote Anddenex quoting Elder Scott (post #6 in the linked thread):

How does this apply to things like traffic laws?

I still maintain that you cannot live the letter of the law without living the spirit of the law. You can live the letter of "a" law without living the spirit of "the" law, I suppose. But to live, "the law", as in the full law of God, one must live the spirit of the law as well, as we are, indeed, commanded to do so, and not doing so is breaking the law, so to speak.

Of course none of that is relative to speed limits. Concerning that...if it were perfectly safe to drive faster than a posted speed -- covering the spirit of the law -- would it then be okay to break the letter?

*shrug*

I know there's a stop sign at the bottom of the hill I live on that was only there for the future through road that did not exist. Pretty much everyone ran it in the neighborhood. I didn't. I came to a complete stop every time and told myself when doing so, "We believe in honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law..." Now that they've put the through road in, I'm glad I'm in the habit. :) Of course I'm not in the habit of looking both ways once I do...and I pulled out in front of an oncoming car the other day. Luckily nothing happened buy my shame (and likely some anger from the other driver). Whoops.

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zil

zil

Posted
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NOTE: The questions in this post are to invoke self-reflection more than conversation.

I think we sometimes tend to think too linearly about obedience, especially to things like traffic laws (but also anything which could be considered a temporal rule, even church rule), though not only to such laws / rules.

Why did the Lord give us a scripture which says "...he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land."?  Why did he give us other scriptures and an article of faith about being subject to government and law?

What's wrong with breaking the speed limit (for example)?  Is there anything right about it?  If so, what?  What blessings come from obeying the speed limit?  Are they all vehicular?  Are they all temporal?  What are the consequences of breaking it?  Are they all legal, financial, and temporal?

Why does one break the speed limit?  I don't believe for a minute that the actual reason is "because it's safe" - I believe that's a justification we sometimes use, not the motive.  I believe that for most people, that's a difficult question to answer in full honesty, because it requires spending more time, and examining oneself more deeply than most people are willing to.

The real question isn't whether it's sinful to break the speed limit under any given conditions.  The real question is whether it's sinful to allow ourselves to be driven by the motives which drive us to break the speed limit (for example).

(Drive pun not intended... :) )

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mirkwood

mirkwood

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Maybe slightly off topic.  But I am curious.  In all seriousness...

Mirk,

If it was 5:00 AM with virtually no traffic.  And you clocked someone doing 60 on a major artery (but not a freeway) where the posted speed limit is 50*, would you turn your lights on and go after him?

*I was mistaken.  The posted limit there was actually 55 mph.  But the question would be more pressing at 50 mph.

Probably not.

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Guest MormonGator

Guest MormonGator

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Gator, Seriously? Boston is worse than Montreal? That is a high standard of mania! I bow in respect to the insanity of Boston drivers. They must be truly devilish. I will have to make a trip to see this mania. Not by car! Maybe a bus trip!

Boston has very narrow streets that were built for horses, not cars. Combine that with the agenda of rage driver that Bostonians are, and like the Music Man says,  you've got trouble.  

:-) 

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askandanswer

askandanswer

Posted
Posted

I believe that demonstrating and increasing our willingness to be obedient to law is one of the main purposes/objectives of mortality. This idea is supported by the teaching that obedience is the first law of heaven. (https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-17-obedience-a-law-of-heaven?lang=eng) I also think that every time we obey law we both demonstrate and increase our willingness to obey law, and every time we disobey, we lessen or weaken, or show less willingness to obey law. I think that Christ would, and would want us to, always do that which increases our willingness to obey law. I think that Christ’s attitude towards obeying the law is well demonstrated by His willingness to provide financial support to a cruel and despotic government, as recorded in Matt 17:27, simply because that is what the law of the time required.

On another matter, I note that the acronym WWJD is one of those acronyms that takes longer to say ( 8 syllables) than does the whole phrase what would Jesus do (5 syllables

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Blackmarch

Blackmarch

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Posted
10 minutes ago, zil said:

@Blackmarch Are you suggesting I shouldn't question Carb and Gator's witchhood?  Or just observing that if we consider the commandment to love one another, it will help us answer any question of obedience?  (An excellent observation, BTW, especially when you try to apply it to the example that started this thread - the speed limit.)

XD

Question everything...... General rule of thumb :P

 

 

 

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mrmarklin

mrmarklin

Posted
Posted
On March 5, 2016 at 5:38 PM, zil said:

Have you driven in Salt Lake?  Apparently Mormons think the world will end if you get there before they do.  Some of them think it's their job to keep you from exceeding the speed limit.  Some think marriage is the only allowable form of merging.  And most of them would prefer to tailgate rather than use the next lane over to pass you.  Those who will use the next lane to pass you seem to enjoy first tailgating, then jerking into the next lane, passing you, and then jerking back in front of you (all while you're the only two people in sight).  And a surprising number of them seem confuse "singing at the top of your lungs in the car behind them" with "threatening to blast them into outer darkness from the car behind them". :)

All true in my experience.  The corridor between Salt Lake and Provo is exceedingly hazardous. 

 

Re:. LA. IMO mostly decent drivers. One must be to survive in SoCal. The unique caracteristic there is the very high speeds extant when there is any sort of break in the normal logjam.

Gator, don't take this personally, but you omitted bad driving in FL. It has a national reputation. Floridumb.:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

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askandanswer

askandanswer

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 3/4/2016 at 4:08 AM, Carborendum said:

 

This morning we were driving extra early because a specially early seminary event was happening.  Driving down the road and virtually no one else on the road, Ffenix noticed I was doing 60 in a 50 zone.  Ever since he's been learning to drive he is always conscious of the speed limit.  He's an exception to the "everyone does it" mantra.  He is also very conscious of the AoF (including #12).  So, without him telling me he disapproved, I could see him gesturing and posturing in a manner that spoke volumes.  I began thinking of the line of reasoning I'd use to justify what I was doing.  While much passed, the end of the thought train was to ask "What would Jesus do?"

If it were Ffenix, I'm sure he'd say,"He'd stay within the speed limit."

 

I can't help thinking of the situation described in 3rd Nephi 19: 1 - 3. 

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 19:1 - 3)
1  AND now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his wife and his children and did return to his own home.
2  And it was noised abroad among the people immediately, before it was yet dark, that the multitude had seen Jesus, and that he had ministered unto them, and that he would also show himself on the morrow unto the multitude.
3  Yea, and even all the night it was noised abroad concerning Jesus; and insomuch did they send forth unto the people that there were many, yea, an exceedingly great number, did labor exceedingly all that night, that they might be on the morrow in the place where Jesus should show himself unto the multitude.
 

Would it have been better for them to exceed the speed limit in their desperate hurry to be on time to sit at the feet of the Saviour and hear His teachings, or would it be better for them to obey the speed limit and possibly miss out on that precious moment? Should they have discarded man made law in order to listen to the source of divine law, or would it have been better to obey the man made law because that is what the source of divine law teaches us to do?

What would Jesus do? Possibly He could have stayed a little longer than He actually did and/or maybe given a repeat version of the same teachings the next day so that those who were late because they kept the speed limit didn't actually miss anything. But maybe I'm wrong in suggesting this because that is not what Jesus did even though it sounds like quite a logical and reasonable thing to do. And that highlights again the difficulties of trying to imagine what Jesus might do. 

Edited by askandanswer
added the final paragraph
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