I am an Anti-NeverTrumper. And you should be too.

[anatess2]

... if you're Republican.

For the Democrats in this forum, just move on to another thread.  ;)

So, I supported Romney in 2012 after he beat out my guy Gingrich.  Okay, disclaimer - I'm Filipino, I can't vote in US elections.  I had bad vibes on Romney from 2008 and also on 2012 against Gingrich because of his penchant for scorched-earth negative campaigns.  I just do not like this tactic in a Presidential Primary.  But yes, most everybody does it and the ones that claim they don't are usually passive aggressive. 

But, I supported him because he was a much better choice than Obama!  So, I housed his campaign volunteers for a week and defended RomneyCare among other things.

And he turns around and becomes a poster child for the Never Trump campaign.   This is the guy that goes on the General Elections and he goes kid-gloves on Obama.  No Never Obama campaign... I mean, can you imagine if all this effort he is putting on this Never Trump campaign he would have put on a Never Obama or even a Never Hillary campaign?  He'd be choosing Scalia's replacement right now!  It is so bad that he was willing to throw Rubio and Kasich under the bus and fund-raise for Cruz while insulting him by saying he likes Kasich better at the same time.  That's a sleazy, only-politicians-will-understand character that is going to sink the Republican Party this year.  And what about Hillary?  Romney says - I won't vote for Hillary.  I'd rather vote 3rd Party if Trump wins the nomination.  That's, "I don't care if Hillary wins" code-speak guys.  You really think a 3rd Party run will give Republicans the White House?

This is just beyond crazy to me.  So, I went and consulted the people I consider credible - Gingrich, who I supported in 2012, Carson, who I supported when the first RunBenRun! ad went out to convince him to run for Presidency, and went to the grandfather of conservatism - Rush Limbaugh.  All 3 agree with me.

So this year, I decided that I'm going to run an anti-NeverTrump campaign just in case he wins the nomination.

LET'S GET ON WITH IT.   HIT ME WITH YOUR BEST SHOT.  HILLARY CANNOT... REPEAT... CANNOT BE PRESIDENT!

[NeuroTypical]

Agreed.  My vote goes with whoever will stop Hilary from picking supreme court justices for the next 4-8 years.   Anatess2 is absolutely correct:  If you are in the habit of voting for conservatives or republicans, and you are saying "I'm not voting for Trump if he's the nominee", a direct translation of your words into practical reality would be "I am voting to make Hilary the next president."

It's fine to be anti-two party system.  Just keep in mind that until you find a way to put your ideals into reality, voting your idealism only gets the democrat elected. Because as things stand now, 3rd-party or multiple-party enthusiasts are ideology only, with no opportunity for practical application. 

[Vort]

I agree with this, too. If I were in a swing state, I would probably hold my nose and vote for Trump over either of the unbelievably awful Democrat candidates (yes, even worse than Trump). Living in Washington state as I do, which state is pretty much sure to go to the Democrat candidate, I am free to cast my vote for Dallin Oaks, Mitt Romney, or Donald Duck without threat of negative repercussions.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with this, too. If I were in a swing state, I would probably hold my nose and vote for Trump over either of the unbelievably awful Democrat candidates (yes, even worse than Trump). Living in Washington state as I do, which state is pretty much sure to go to the Democrat candidate, I am free to cast my vote for Dallin Oaks, Mitt Romney, or Donald Duck without threat of negative repercussions.

Could you vote for me please, Vort? 

(Kidding, kidding. In the immortal words of Bill Buckley, "If I ever ran and won, I'd demand an immediate recount" 

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with this, too. If I were in a swing state, I would probably hold my nose and vote for Trump over either of the unbelievably awful Democrat candidates (yes, even worse than Trump). Living in Washington state as I do, which state is pretty much sure to go to the Democrat candidate, I am free to cast my vote for Dallin Oaks, Mitt Romney, or Donald Duck without threat of negative repercussions.

Vort, does your State have polls out yet for expected voter turnout?  You're like in the tail-end of the primary season but from how it is looking like... your State might just be the State that bumps a candidate past the 1237 mark...  So, in that sense, your vote finally makes a difference this year...

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Vort, does your State have polls out yet for expected voter turnout?  You're like in the tail-end of the primary season but from how it is looking like... your State might just be the State that bumps a candidate past the 1237 mark...  So, in that sense, your vote finally makes a difference this year...

If you are talking about our caucuses, the Republican caucuses are already done. The Democrat caucuses take place on Saturday. The primaries take place in May, though I don't think they do anything for the Democrats, who base their delegate allocation on the caucuses. The Republican delegates are determined in the primaries, so that is when I will cast my vote against Trump and for his competitor (probably Cruz, who on the balance is a decent candidate, especially by comparison). In the general election, Washington going communist Democrat is almost certainly a foregone conclusion.

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

If you are talking about our caucuses, the Republican caucuses are already done. The Democrat caucuses take place on Saturday. The primaries take place in May, though I don't think they do anything for the Democrats, who base their delegate allocation on the caucuses. The Republican delegates are determined in the primaries, so that is when I will cast my vote against Trump and for his competitor (probably Cruz, who on the balance is a decent candidate, especially by comparison). In the general election, Washington going communist Democrat is almost certainly a foregone conclusion.

Oh!  You meant D.C!  I thought you meant Seattle kind of Washington...

[prisonchaplain]

I can't do it.

Moderate Republicans need to get behind Cruz. I got behind McCain and Romney. Now it's their turn.

If Trump is our guy, I honestly do not know what I will do. Abstain from the presidential part of the ballot is an option. I hope I don't have to vote for HRC, but Trump's character, vulgarity, and scary, rudderless behavior make me believe he could do more damage that HRC. It's not a matter of ideology, policy or platform.  And, please...I'm not defending HRC. She's not good.  But, I suspect she is sane.

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Oh!  You meant D.C!  I thought you meant Seattle kind of Washington...

No, I mean Washington state.

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, I mean Washington state.

I thought their Republican primary is in May???  Where have I been?

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I can't do it.

Moderate Republicans need to get behind Cruz. I got behind McCain and Romney. Now it's their turn.

If Trump is our guy, I honestly do not know what I will do. Abstain from the presidential part of the ballot is an option. I hope I don't have to vote for HRC, but Trump's character, vulgarity, and scary, rudderless behavior make me believe he could do more damage that HRC. It's not a matter of ideology, policy or platform.  And, please...I'm not defending HRC. She's not good.  But, I suspect she is sane.

 I go back and forth between voting for Trump for logical reasons-and voting third party.  I live in the ultimate swing state, so my vote sort of matters. it's a nice feeling. 

[NeuroTypical]

10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Moderate Republicans need to get behind Cruz. I got behind McCain and Romney. Now it's their turn.

Don't get me wrong, I'd totally love to vote for Cruz, should he end up with the nomination.  It's just that, well, it doesn't look like he will.  But I mean if he does, I'm voting for him.  It's just that it ain't gonna happen, so I'd rather not have Hilary win.

Trump is being a politician.  He is carefully projecting an image that he hopes will get him elected.  Just like all the other politicians are also doing.  His public image has as much to do with who he really is, as theirs does with who they really are.  

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I thought their Republican primary is in May???  Where have I been?

That's what I said.

21 minutes ago, Vort said:

The primaries take place in May

 

[Guest MormonGator]

If I was a Trumper I'd be terrified that the division in the GOP would destroy the party. Even if I'm dead wrong and Trump is a wonderful person and would be a great president - their big problem is that many people agree with me and can't stand him. To think otherwise is to delude yourself. 

[anatess2]

Okay, first, I'll see if you can see the logic of a Trumpism:

I'll start with Vindictiveness because this is a common thing that is given to Trump.

If you've been paying heed to the negative press that Trump receives, you would have heard about Donald Trump's nephew... Fred III, son of Fred Jr... Donald's brother who died of alcoholism.  You would also have heard the stories that Donald cut off medical insurance coverage to Fred III's son, William, who was born with a rare disease and fighting for his life.  The news articles on this one is vicious.  Trump is a child-killer cold-hearted vindictive sob... etc.

So, here's the no-spin story.

Fred Sr (Donald's father) died and left a will that divided the bulk of his estate to his 4 living children - no provision for Fred Jr, who was already dead at the time.  The grandchildren also received equal shares of part of the estate.  This included Fred III and his sister.  Fred Jr's wife, received nothing.  This is because Fred Sr. blamed his daughter-in-law partly for Fred Jr's problems.

When the will was read, Fred III and his sister sued Donald and his siblings for 1/5 of the bulk of the estate as Fred Jr's share.  They claimed that Donald and his siblings fraudulently influenced Fred Sr who was suffering with Alzheimer's to not recognize Fred Jr. in the will.  Donald claims that Fred Sr only gave inheritance to the living children and this has always been his desire.

William's medical coverage was provided for by the Trump Organization  - Fred III, although a real-estate developer himself, is not part of the Trump Organization.  So, when it was time to renew the medical coverage, Donald and his siblings decided not to renew it.

Now, this is, of course, easily seen as cold-hearted and vindictive.

This is Donald's view of it (paraphrased):

Suing my dead father is cold-hearted.  If they wanted more money, they could have just asked me or my siblings.  We would have happily given parts of our share to Fred Jr's memory.  Our decision to cut off medical coverage does not hurt William.  Fred III and his wife are more than capable of paying for that medical coverage themselves even before they received their share of the inheritance.  I have helped Fred III over the years.  He can learn to fend for himself.

Now, after that incident... Fred III did not get what he wanted out of the will.  But Donald and his siblings continued their relationship with Fred including helping him out with his business.

 

I'm thinking about this and if I was to be Donald, I don't think I'd do anything to the medical coverage.  I'd renew it and teach Fred III the lesson in a different manner.  But then I'm thinking about how this applies in the world stage... We're not going to hit ISIS because it will look cold-hearted....

And I start to think... maybe this is the kind of temperament that we need... somebody who doesn't care about the optics.  Because, if I get over the initial pull-my-heartstring-effect of a baby with a rare disease losing medical coverage... I can actually see that William was never in any danger of not getting medical care.  And then I can see how this brings Fred III back in line with Fred Sr's will.

Discuss.

Edited March 24, 2016 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

43 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd totally love to vote for Cruz, should he end up with the nomination.  It's just that, well, it doesn't look like he will.  But I mean if he does, I'm voting for him.  It's just that it ain't gonna happen, so I'd rather not have Hilary win.

Trump is being a politician.  He is carefully projecting an image that he hopes will get him elected.  Just like all the other politicians are also doing.  His public image has as much to do with who he really is, as theirs does with who they really are.  

Apparently the odds-makers are saying Cruz is possible (22% likelihood), Trump probable (75%), Kasich almost impossible (3%)

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/political-prediction-marketplace-republicans-contested-convention/index.html

[anatess2]

50 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd totally love to vote for Cruz, should he end up with the nomination.  It's just that, well, it doesn't look like he will.  But I mean if he does, I'm voting for him.  It's just that it ain't gonna happen, so I'd rather not have Hilary win.

Trump is being a politician.  He is carefully projecting an image that he hopes will get him elected.  Just like all the other politicians are also doing.  His public image has as much to do with who he really is, as theirs does with who they really are.  

Don't count him out yet!  He still has a mathematical possibility of winning.  It's going to be hard with the Northeast coming up - New York, New Jersey... they're not Cruz-friendly.  But, if he can use the "establishment wing" to his favor instead of his detriment (as has been the case with everybody else before him), he can possibly get there!

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Apparently the odds-makers are saying Cruz is possible (22% likelihood), Trump probable (75%), Kasich almost impossible (3%)

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/political-prediction-marketplace-republicans-contested-convention/index.html

Kasich is hanging on in the hopes that the Convention delegates would give him the Presidency, or he can use his delegates as bargaining chips for something.  He has zero mathematical chance of winning the first Convention vote.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

My vote goes with whoever will stop Hilary from picking supreme court justices for the next 4-8 years.  

This is the only thing that may get me to vote for Trump.

I hope Cruz pulls out a victory.  The head to head polls show him smoking Hillary.  Trump may or may not be able to beat her.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

This is the only thing that may get me to vote for Trump.

=

Same with me. 

[estradling75]

What I am afraid is going to happen is... No one will have enough delegates come convention time...

So everyone brokers some kind of deal and  "Anyone but Trump" becomes republican candidate.

Trump cries foul and goes Independent, taking his supporters with him.

The GOP remains a house divided and the Dems take the presidency again.

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

This is the only thing that may get me to vote for Trump.

I hope Cruz pulls out a victory.  The head to head polls show him smoking Hillary.  Trump may or may not be able to beat her.

He's not going to beat her if NeverTrump persists.  Seriously.  Why is Cruz getting support from Romney's ilk now?  It's not that they like his platform or like him period.  If Romney would have endorsed Cruz well before Florida, Cruz could have possibly gotten closer to Trump or even be higher than him!  There was never a possibility that Rubio or Kasich could catch up!  If Cruz - the hardliner - can smoke Hillary, there's no reason Trump can't... the only reason is really the NeverTrump people.  These guys are using left-tactics to shoot the guy down.  They need to go away and leave the people to decide.

[prisonchaplain]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

What I am afraid is going to happen is... No one will have enough delegates come convention time...

So everyone brokers some kind of deal and  "Anyone but Trump" becomes republican candidate.

Trump cries foul and goes Independent, taking his supporters with him.

The GOP remains a house divided and the Dems take the presidency again.

I am willing for this to happen vs. having Trump become the leader of the GOP. He's not a conservative, as Anatess has pointed out. We may have to lose the election to save the party.  :::sigh:::

[prisonchaplain]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

They need to go away and leave the people to decide.

We suspect the country can survive four years of HRC. We seriously doubt the party can survive 4 years of Trump.  People will decide...all we're doing is informing....ain't going nowhere.  :-)

[Guest MormonGator]

 

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

 We may have to lose the election to save the party.  :::sigh:::

"This is the end, beautiful friend. The end, the end."-The End, The Doors