Exodus 7:22 and John 3:27

[askandanswer]

 

Is Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses did an exception to the principle that John stated in John 3 verse 27 where he says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something. Surely the power of Pharoah’s servants to perform this duplicate miracle was received from somewhere - it is not a power inherently in man. If John’s statement holds true in all circumstances then it raises the question of from whence came the power of Pharoah’s magicians? If the answer is that this power came from Satan, then it would suggest that there are some limits to John’s statement. If the answer is that this power came from God, then this would be a contrary example to the argument that Jesus used when He was accused by the pharisees in Matthew 12: 24 - 26 of casting out devils because he was the prince of devils. .

[mrmarklin]

These were simple magic tricks. I've never believed that Pharaoh's magicians had any special powers at all.

[Rhoades]

In verse 26 guys came to John and told him Jesus was baptizing people and drawing lots of people.  This was significant because John was a really great prophet and Jesus was gaining in popularity.  But John knew he must decrease while Jesus would increase. John 3:27 says:

Quote

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

I think he was indicating that Jesus's authority and greatness were from heaven.  If we have a calling from God or have authority, it is from heaven.  The footnote in John 3:27 references James 1:17 which teaches that every good gift comes from God.  I think another good verse it could have referenced is Hebrews 5:4

Quote

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

 

Now, the interpretation you put is broader.  You said, "a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something."  I think that works too.

I look at it as the fact that God has given us agency.  We can act.  Our ability to do things is a gift from God.  We can do both good and evil, but that doesn't mean God did the evil.  We could even try to solicit Satan's power to do miraculous things, but that's dangerous.  He just wants to make us miserable and destroy us.

Pharaoh's servants had agency from God.  They either did a magic trick with no real power at all, or they relied on Satan and by his power did things.  Their ability to act in that way was a gift from God.

[Blackmarch]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

Is Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses did an exception to the principle that John stated in John 3 verse 27 where he says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something. Surely the power of Pharoah’s servants to perform this duplicate miracle was received from somewhere - it is not a power inherently in man. If John’s statement holds true in all circumstances then it raises the question of from whence came the power of Pharoah’s magicians? If the answer is that this power came from Satan, then it would suggest that there are some limits to John’s statement. If the answer is that this power came from God, then this would be a contrary example to the argument that Jesus used when He was accused by the pharisees in Matthew 12: 24 - 26 of casting out devils because he was the prince of devils. .

everything satan abuses was created by god initially.

[Bill (Papa) Lee]

On July 3, 2016 at 8:28 PM, askandanswer said:

 

 

Is Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses did an exception to the principle that John stated in John 3 verse 27 where he says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something. Surely the power of Pharoah’s servants to perform this duplicate miracle was received from somewhere - it is not a power inherently in man. If John’s statement holds true in all circumstances then it raises the question of from whence came the power of Pharoah’s magicians? If the answer is that this power came from Satan, then it would suggest that there are some limits to John’s statement. If the answer is that this power came from God, then this would be a contrary example to the argument that Jesus used when He was accused by the pharisees in Matthew 12: 24 - 26 of casting out devils because he was the prince of devils. .

John speaks of the power and gift to know that Jesus is the Christ, to know the truth from lies, to use and heal by power of the Priesthood, to receive and have with us the gift of the Holy Ghost. As for witchcraft and the power to deceive and show wonders that will lead others away from God, this comes from Satan who can give and show counterfeit powers can give such power to confuse others into following paths that lead to destruction. This is evident of the armies of Pharoah being destroyed as they pursued Moses and the people of Israel. I recently was blessed by the power of the Priesthood in an powerful way. A true gift from heaven. 

[Edspringer]

On 03/07/2016 at 9:28 PM, askandanswer said:

 

 

Is Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses did an exception to the principle that John stated in John 3 verse 27 where he says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something. Surely the power of Pharoah’s servants to perform this duplicate miracle was received from somewhere - it is not a power inherently in man. If John’s statement holds true in all circumstances then it raises the question of from whence came the power of Pharoah’s magicians? If the answer is that this power came from Satan, then it would suggest that there are some limits to John’s statement. If the answer is that this power came from God, then this would be a contrary example to the argument that Jesus used when He was accused by the pharisees in Matthew 12: 24 - 26 of casting out devils because he was the prince of devils. .

 

20 hours ago, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

John speaks of the power and gift to know that Jesus is the Christ, to know the truth from lies, to use and heal by power of the Priesthood, to receive and have with us the gift of the Holy Ghost. As for witchcraft and the power to deceive and show wonders that will lead others away from God, this comes from Satan who can give and show counterfeit powers can give such power to confuse others into following paths that lead to destruction. This is evident of the armies of Pharoah being destroyed as they pursued Moses and the people of Israel. I recently was blessed by the power of the Priesthood in an powerful way. A true gift from heaven. 

When asked by His disciples when the end of times would come, our Savior answered, among other things, the following:

“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect”. (Mathew 24:23-24)

So, the word “shew” is particularly interesting in this context. The synonimus are :appearence, look, aspect, demonstration, exiposition, etc. Well, what the magicians of the Pharoah and those false prophets of late did and will do are no more than someting that appears to be real, but it is essentialy fake.

In my understanding, signs like those mentioned in the book of Exudus aren’t miracles from Heaven, but simulations only. Let’s remember that Satan tried to decieve Moses when he said he was the Son of God (Moses 1:19). Deception seems to be Satan’s greatest tool.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Edspringer
missing words

[Traveler]

On 7/3/2016 at 6:28 PM, askandanswer said:

 

 

Is Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses did an exception to the principle that John stated in John 3 verse 27 where he says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something. Surely the power of Pharoah’s servants to perform this duplicate miracle was received from somewhere - it is not a power inherently in man. If John’s statement holds true in all circumstances then it raises the question of from whence came the power of Pharoah’s magicians? If the answer is that this power came from Satan, then it would suggest that there are some limits to John’s statement. If the answer is that this power came from God, then this would be a contrary example to the argument that Jesus used when He was accused by the pharisees in Matthew 12: 24 - 26 of casting out devils because he was the prince of devils. .

 

It is my opinion that a lot is not understood from this Exodus scripture reference.  Like so many things in ancient scripture (especially from prehistoric times) I think literal interpretations over arch and become misleading from the more important symbolic applications.  Both the ancient prehistoric culture of the Egyptians as well as the covenant Hebrews used a serpent as symbolic reference of divine power from heaven on earth.  It is interesting to me that the power anciently symbolized in the serpent is directly associated to the Messiah, Christ or Son of G-d.  I do not believe that happened in the court of Pharaoh had anything to do with actual snakes slithering around as we tend to view this from modern interpretations of what we try to think up what was actually going on.

I also believe that this epoch of Moses before Pharaoh is presented in sacred scripture in a method as to be a symbolic type and shadow given as prophesy concerning the deliverance of Israel (the covenant of G-d) from the pretending powers amassed by those of high station (today's Pharaohs of today's Egypt) in the last days or end of times.  Understanding may be enhanced or helped by scholarship but to know and understand such scripture can only come from divine revelation - not just through ancient and modern prophets alone but directly by the Holy Ghost to the individual seeking, by covenant, the divine light and truth from heaven.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

On 7/3/2016 at 7:28 PM, askandanswer said:

Exodus 7 verse 22 where Pharaoh's magicians duplicate the miracles that Moses

Was it a simple magician's trick or did they really have some form of "magic" going on?  I tend toward the former, but leave myself open to the latter.

On 7/3/2016 at 7:28 PM, askandanswer said:

John 3 verse 27 says a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven?  I understand John 3 verse 27 to mean that a man can do nothing, unless he receives from heaven the power to do something.

No.  As Rhoades indicated, the context and cross referencing indicate that this specifically was talking about the things of salvation.  Priesthood and the ordinances thereof, or the power and authority to perform such ordinances only comes from God.

While a simple magician's trick required no supernatural forces at all, even a "real magik" wouldn't violate this verse because it has nothing to do with the things of salvation.

 

 

[askandanswer]

I came across this verse while doing my scripture reading this morning. It may have some relevance to this thread. 

(New Testament | Revelation 16:14)
14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This seems to suggest that the devil does have some sort of power to perform miracles (which some might think of as a form of magic) and that this power is transferable to his assistants. 

[Vort]

Maybe I'm too much a rationalist/positivist, but I disbelieve in "magic". However, I do believe Clarke's dictum that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I extend the idea of "technology" to cover the working of divine beings and powers, and in general the realm of knowledge not open to us. So maybe that's a distinction without a difference.

In answer to the OP, I think John the Baptist was very clearly talking about the doing of divine ordinances and such. These things cannot be done without explicit divine authorization. I don't think it has anything to do with supposed "miracles", including the deceptions practiced in Pharaoh's court.