0-4

[unixknight]

8 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Yes, I very much prefer to believe the initial misquote, as it answers a lot of questions the recantation leaves hanging.

Since I said it was speculation, this is not in contention. However, the Washington Post (hardly a right-wing standard bearer) story is the place where the fear of retaliation was raised. That didn't come from me.

I'm sure it didn't, but it's still a red herring.  These officers were responsible for Gray's safety.  Period.  They failed to meet that responsibility.  Period.  The Baltimore Police Department admitted that mistakes were made.  Whether their negligence was criminal is being decided in court. 

Are you still arguing that these guys were victims?

[LeSellers]

57 minutes ago, unixknight said:

These officers were responsible for Gray's safety.  Period.  They failed to meet that responsibility.

If he, as I (and the Post) contend that he was responsible for his own demise by his throwing himself around in the van, then the officers were not negligent.

57 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Are you still arguing that these guys were victims?

Why not? If the BLM, etc., are using this event for political purposes, then, yes, they are victims.

Lehi

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

If he, as I (and the Post) contend that he was responsible for his own demise by his throwing himself around in the van, then the officers were not negligent.

So the BPD admits to mistakes, but they're not negligent.  That's an interesting conclusion.

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Why not? If the BLM, etc., are using this event for political purposes, then, yes, they are victims.

So, no matter what level of negligence or possible criminal behavior these officers showed, the fact that the BLM (and others like them) are using the event for their own ends automatically makes them victims?

 

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So the BPD admits to mistakes, but they're not negligent.  That's an interesting conclusion.

Baltimore, a largely Black city, with an extraordinary crime rate, is in a political situation where admitting "mistakes" is easier than fighting for the truth.

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So, no matter what level of negligence or possible criminal behavior these officers showed, the fact that the BLM (and others like them) are using the event for their own ends automatically makes them victims?

You are assuming, against the evidence, that there was negligence. But yes, even if there were, as has not been shown legally, they are victims. Just like the Duke Lacrosse team were victims, even though innocent. The court of (manipulated) public opinion destroyed them. But even if they had been guilty, they would still have been victims of the newspapers, the faculty, and the community. Their punishment should have gone no further than the law.

Lehi
Signing out. This is getting tedious, and we don't want to be seen as "bickering". LS

[unixknight]

44 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Baltimore, a largely Black city, with an extraordinary crime rate, is in a political situation where admitting "mistakes" is easier than fighting for the truth.

You seem to feel you know something the BPD doesn't.  That's another speculation, and speculation isn't evidence, no matter how convenient it might be.

44 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You are assuming, against the evidence, that there was negligence. But yes, even if there were, as has not been shown legally, they are victims. Just like the Duke Lacrosse team were victims, even though innocent. The court of (manipulated) public opinion destroyed them. But even if they had been guilty, they would still have been victims of the newspapers, the faculty, and the community. Their punishment should have gone no further than the law.

 

While I agree that the court of public opinion hanged those men on day 1, that's also irrelevant.  You say I'm making an assumption against the evidence, but that's exactly how I see your arguments.  A man died while in the custody of a police department that admits it made mistakes.  I don't know why you find my position so unreasonable.

44 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Signing out. This is getting tedious, and we don't want to be seen as "bickering".

 

I agree that this one's probably run its course.  Until next time! 

[mirkwood]

8 hours ago, unixknight said:

Hey if you prefer to believe the initial misquote then be my guest.  Just don't expect people to agree when that statement is, at best, in question.  The part about his changing his story out of fear is speculation on your part, brother.

As is your speculation that the first quote was not accurate.

[unixknight]

12 hours ago, mirkwood said:

As is your speculation that the first quote was not accurate.

Fair enough.

[Ironhold]

The big thing to remember, folks, is that a murder charge requires intent. If the prosecution had gone for manslaughter or negligent homicide, then we would likely be looking at convictions. That's because manslaughter and negligent homicide focus on the actions of the involved party or parties, and require no consideration of intent. 

So basically, we're not seeing convictions because the prosecution got greedy. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

The big thing to remember, folks, is that a murder charge requires intent. If the prosecution had gone for manslaughter or negligent homicide, then we would likely be looking at convictions. That's because manslaughter and negligent homicide focus on the actions of the involved party or parties, and require no consideration of intent. 

So basically, we're not seeing convictions because the prosecution got greedy. 

And that's why I say... Mosby did the black community a big disservice when she went political activist in her job as State Attorney.  And that's why I say - over and over and over again - you cannot solve racism by racist methods.  Because, it is as much a disservice in the racial divide to mete out arrests because of the color of one's skin as it is to prosecute a case because of the color of one's skin.  And that's what Mosby tried to do.

[unixknight]

On 7/21/2016 at 2:43 AM, anatess2 said:

Because, it is as much a disservice in the racial divide to mete out arrests because of the color of one's skin as it is to prosecute a case because of the color of one's skin.  And that's what Mosby tried to do.

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying here, but I need to point out that not all of the officers in the Gray case are white.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying here, but I need to point out that not all of the officers in the Gray case are white.

Yes, but I'm talking about the color of Freddie's skin.

[mirkwood]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-miller-pretrial-motions-20160727-story.html

 

 

0-6. A malicious political prosecution has ended.

[unixknight]

Glad I don't work in Baltimore anymore...

[LeSellers]

52 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Glad I don't work in Baltimore anymore...

Glad I never did. What a cesspool!

Lehi

[Ironhold]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/27/us/baltimore-marilyn-mosby-officer-lawsuits-freddie-gray/

Five of the cops are now suing over the matter. 

[unixknight]

14 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Glad I never did. What a cesspool!

Lehi

I don't mean this as an attack or anything, your comment raises a point I'd like to make.  I think you'd benefit greatly from living in a place like Baltimore, even if it's for a year.  When we debate, I often feel like your perspective would benefit from the more objective perspective you'd gain if you could see not only how people live in the area you're in now, but also in an area like Baltimore.  You'd be surprised how much it impacts one's worldview to see how other people live.

And I don't just mean brother LeSellers when I say that.  I think many of the folks on this board would gain that benefit.

I mean this kindly, not as an attack against anyone.

[estradling75]

7 hours ago, Ironhold said:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/27/us/baltimore-marilyn-mosby-officer-lawsuits-freddie-gray/

Five of the cops are now suing over the matter. 

Then this means that in time we will know if the prosecutor abused her position

[NeuroTypical]

When they make me emperor of the world, everyone will be required to run through some of this before they can get a high school diploma.   Then I'd make Unixknight do it twice, just 'cuz I'm emperor and that's how I'd roll.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

When they make me emperor of the world 

Remember what happened to the Emperor in Star Wars my friend. 

[unixknight]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

When they make me emperor of the world, everyone will be required to run through some of this before they can get a high school diploma.   Then I'd make Unixknight do it twice, just 'cuz I'm emperor and that's how I'd roll.

I'll take it 5 times if you'll come spend 1 week in and around Baltimore with me.

[Guest Godless]

6 hours ago, unixknight said:

I don't mean this as an attack or anything, your comment raises a point I'd like to make.  I think you'd benefit greatly from living in a place like Baltimore, even if it's for a year.  When we debate, I often feel like your perspective would benefit from the more objective perspective you'd gain if you could see not only how people live in the area you're in now, but also in an area like Baltimore.  You'd be surprised how much it impacts one's worldview to see how other people live.

And I don't just mean brother LeSellers when I say that.  I think many of the folks on this board would gain that benefit.

I mean this kindly, not as an attack against anyone.

Very well said. I spent a lot of time in and around Baltimore in my younger years. It's home to me in a lot of ways. It's where I fell in love with hardcore punk. It's where I learned how to navigate a large city without a GPS. It's where I proposed to my wife. I still get excited every time I go back to visit my favorite punk bars and taprooms. It's a very broken city, but it was and always will be my city, more so than San Antonio. 

And you're right, living in that area absolutely shaped my worldview in a myriad of ways. Even living in the Anne Arundel suburbs, I was surrounded by poor black neighborhoods. Most of those neighborhoods fed into my high school. I've lived nearly all of my life as a "white minority". I believe it's given me a unique perspective on things like white privilege (yes, it's a real thing) and the difficulties that come with living in a toxically poor environment. And those difficulties are colorblind. If you think poverty is just a black problem in central Maryland, I invite you to visit Dundalk. 

[unixknight]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Then this means that in time we will know if the prosecutor abused her position

Heh this is 21st Century American politics, my friend.  It doesn't mean that at all.  What will happen in time is that when the result comes in, half the people who have been watching the story will feel vindicated and the other half will see it as evidence that the system doesn't work.

The only difference will be which half is which.

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Heh this is 21st Century American politics, my friend.  It doesn't mean that at all.  What will happen in time is that when the result comes in, half the people who have been watching the story will feel vindicated and the other half will see it as evidence that the system doesn't work.

The only difference will be which half is which.

It does to me...I have not flip-flopped around on what my position is.

[unixknight]

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It does to me...I have not flip-flopped around on what my position is.

Who said anything about flipfloppery?

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Who said anything about flipfloppery?

 

You did...  Or atleast that is how I understood this

 

27 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Heh this is 21st Century American politics, my friend.  It doesn't mean that at all.  What will happen in time is that when the result comes in, half the people who have been watching the story will feel vindicated and the other half will see it as evidence that the system doesn't work.

The only difference will be which half is which.

Each half flipflops to the other side