Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?

[jasonnooson]

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator?  I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers.  

Here is the way I see it.

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.  He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?  Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.  Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.  Only practicing being a different person does that.  The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.  Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it.  This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.  

[jerome1232]

1 hour ago, jasonnooson said:

 Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Is that just? Is the fact that he doesn't have to pay recompense perfectly just?

I don't believe it is, and I believe our Father is. That is my simple response to this small portion.

[Guest]

Jason,

The standard Sunday School answers have a lot more depth to them than you realize.  You have only scratched the surface.  Don't dismiss the answer because you failed to recognize that fact.  Look a little deeper.  Then deeper still.  Pretty soon, you should start realizing just how deep the rabbit hole goes.  Much of the understanding you seek is not intellectual, but spiritual.  But I'll try to give you some guidance down the rabbit hole.

First, you seem to be laboring under a false impression that we can somehow earn our way into heaven.  I know evangelicals accuse us of believing that.  But that simply isn't the case.  An eternal principal says that once we've sinned, there is no such thing as "earning" our way into heaven.  Nephi tells us that there is not one other way except by Jesus Christ.  Paul says that it isn't of our own accomplishment lest we should boast.  So, what makes you believe that you would be "worthy" just because you've changed the person you are?  And what is the motivation for your change anyway?  If that motivation is not centered on the Atonement, then it is pretty much useless.  Anything we do must be centered on the atonement or else it profiteth nothing.

Second, God is not "limited" by justice.  Does it truly make sense that "omnipotent" means that there are no rules?  There is no principle that is fundamental?  No rules that must stand immutable?  If that is the case, then there is no good nor evil.  Isn't the very definition of good that it abides by rules?  If God has no rules, what does good and evil even mean?  If evil can be good and good can be evil just at His good pleasure, then they really have no meaning.  

A similar line of reasoning must also be applied to justice and mercy.  If justice does not need to be satisfied, It doesn't matter whether you've changed or not.  Without justice, there is no right or wrong; good nor evil.  The meaning of evil means a breaking of an eternal law.  Every law must have a punishment or the law is just a paper tiger.  So, without justice, there is no punishment.  Without punishment, there is no law.  Without eternal laws, there is no meaning to good or evil. Without good or evil there is no God at all.

This is not a limitation, but definition.  As a human being we look at a rock and feel its roughness, its hardness, its weight, etc.  Are we "limited" because we don't have a rock that is liquid at room temperature and cools us off and replenishes our bodily fluids?  No, because it wouldn't be a rock anymore.  It would be water.  Why?  Because of definition, not limitation.

Pray about it for a while and ponder the topic.  You should realize that without justice NOTHING MATTERS.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Guest

[Awakened]

Think of Justice in terms of spiritual math. Or maybe even just straight up math.

3-1=2 That -1 is sin. And in order to make it 3 again, that one needs to be added back. 2+1=3 The +1 is the payment. The recompense that cold logic and truth say is needed.

The problem is, we cannot help but keep on minusing 1's all year long, non-stop until we die. What are we to do about this gross inequality that we are helplessly creating? The only thing we can do about it just by ourselves is to pay for all those -1's full out. Over a lifetime or even just 20 years, that's an awful lot to pay back, needless to say! How can we avoid this? Is there anything that can be done to satisfy the inequality we cannot help but make constantly in our everyday lives?

The answer is a resounding YES. Those +1's can be given from another source. Justice wants balance. Nothing more or less. And by doing this, Justice's cold logical need of balance is fully satisfied without us having to pay anything. And that other source is Jesus Christ. He is willing to pay it all. He is balancing all of us out, he who has INFINITE +1's to give because he enacted an INSANELY powerful ordinance. The Atonement. A sheer incomprehensible act only a god could ever have performed. And all of this was done for us. All we have to do is accept his payment and his commandments. To do the best we can from not adding more -1's than we can help. To follow him.

[Edspringer]

7 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator?  I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers.  

Here is the way I see it.

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.  He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?  Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.  Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.  Only practicing being a different person does that.  The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.  Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it.  This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.  

I understand your concern. Don’t feel guilty for not understanding the atonement.

Please read the following:

The Book of Mormon. It is the best source to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. I recommend the whole book, but paying particular attention to 2 Nephi chapters 2, 9 though 11, Mosiah chapters  2 through 5, 12 through 15, Alma chapters 5, 7, 11 though 13, 34, 18, 21 through 22, 36, 39 through 42. Please note, in these chapters, the why of the atonement.

“The purifying power of Gethsemani”, by Elder Bruce R. McConkie;

“The atonement”, by Elder Russell M. Nelson;

“The Mediator”, by Elder Boyd K. Packer.

You might also want to read Cleon Skounsen’s“ intelligence theory”. It might help to get, at least, and idea of the importance of the atonement.

Here go some insights:

Elder Bruce R. McConkie said: “Now, the atonement of Christ is the most basic and fundamental doctrine of the gospel, and it is the least understood of all our revealed truths”. As I said, no one really understands the atonement in its fullness.

President Boyd K Packer once said that although we fail to understand the atonement due to our minds’ finite capacity, we can feel it every day of our lives and, thus, accept and desire its power upon us.

Presidente Ezra Taft Benso once said that, as well as we don’t appreciate food until we are hungry, we don’t appreciate the atonement until we need Christ.

Now this might take you a time to read:

To understand the atonement we need to understand our Heavenly Father’s plan: His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). He begot us as His spirt children, among all intelligences. He saw we could progress like Him and therefore He instituted laws through which we could advance in knowledge. As spirits we were given agency and knowledge. In the pre-mortal world, we progressed enough to go to the next step: receive a body. Without it we couldn’t become like our Father. But there would be a problem. We were immortal beings. Nothing God creates is finite, mortal. He Himself is eternal, infinite and immortal. But we needed a time to learn and acquire more light in the second estate. So death should be introduced in our second estate so we all would have a time to prepare to meet God (Alma 34:32). But after the separation of our spirts from our bodies (gifts from our Heavenly Father for our second estate), we couldn’t go back to His presence and, as Jacob said, we would become devils, angels to a devil (2 Nephi 9:7-8. Please read the whole chapter). Then we needed to be restored. But what power could do that? There should be a power greater than death to bring back the spirit to its body to separate no more. There was only One capable of such a thing and it was Jesus Christ. It was so due to the facts that He was our Father’s Firstborn, He received commandment, knowledge, authority and power from the Father that enabled Him to volunteer Himself for the position of Savior. He knew the mind of the Father perfectly and, thus, was chosen in the Grand Council.

So, the atonement of Christ gives us the chance not only to overcome death, but also ascend to a higher glory. Salvation is universal for all those who came, are or will ever come to this earth and possess a mortal body (except the sons of perdition).

But what is our role in the plan? Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His the perfect power of redemption, repent of our sins and desire to be cleansed, make and keep covenants, obey the commandments and endure to the end. If we do so, we will inherit the Celestial Glory in the highest degree and then we will be able not only to comprehend the atonement, but we ourselves will be able to exalt our spirit children through the same redeeming power.

We, for ourselves, can do nothing. Everything happens by and through the power of God Almighty, by and through the power of the atonement. Can our works make us go to Heaven? No, but there’s plenty to do on our own. Basically we have to align our will with the will of the Father, Who knows all. We have to have a perfect faith in Christ, which is trust wholly, completely in His merits, mercy and grace (2 Nephi 2:8).

Why do we need an atonement? Because we can’t resurrect ourselves from the grave; because we can’t pay the debt to justice. We have physical and spiritual limitations and could not atone for our own sins and give our lives and take them up again (Please read Alma 34 for further understanding). But Christ could. The Father gave Him the power to do so (John 5:19, 10:18). We need to desire redemption and advancement. We need to exercise our agency and rely on the merits of Christ and desire to take upon us His name, remember Him always and keep His commandments.

One last thought: God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Everything He does for His children is based on love. Do we deserve it by our own merits? No. But His love is perfect and wants us to live with Him eternally and share eternal life and exaltation.

 

[anatess2]

I'm going to put these out there for you to ponder:

Celestial:  To be completely ONE in WILL with the Father - requires knowledge.

Eternal Law:  No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.  Unclean = that which is contrary to the Will of God (sin).

Consequence of the Eternal Law:  Death (eternal separation from the Father - this transcends mortal death, it is a spiritual death).

When a spirit sins, the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence.

So then The Father desired for us to Progress - to have more knowledge, especially the knowledge of good and evil so that we can learn to have our WIll be One with God by choosing that which is good.

But then, gaining that knowledge means we have to go where SIN is present (mortality) - where The Father cannot dwell.  The price for sin is eternal separation from The Father - we cannot ever come back to His presence - eternally.

So when the plan was presented to the pre-mortal spirits, we despaired.  We were caught between a rock and a hard place - To progress, we must become mortal (unlcean/sin)... to become mortal, we must die (not just mortal death but spiritual death - the price for sin, eternal separation from the Father).  If we don't go through the plan to progress, we cannot live with the Father either as we lacked knowledge.   It was an impossible situation.

The only way to overcome that price for death is to have someone else who is clean (no sin) die (spiritual death, not just mortal death) in our stead.  That person is Jesus Christ - someone who is already of One Will with the Father, clean, sinless... die for our sake.  When he cried out on the cross, "Father, why have you abandoned me?" that was his desperate plea to the Father in the extreme agony of having been completely spiritually separated from Him.  His resurrection and ascension back to the presence of the Father was possible because even as Jesus was spiritually dead (completely separated from the Father), Jesus was still God and, therefore, never lost his qualification for Celestial being.

Christ's spiritual death made it possible for us to fullfill a lower law (the law of Christ - Follow me and be saved) to fulfill the consequence of the Eternal law (spiritual death).

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by anatess2

[jasonnooson]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Jason,

The standard Sunday School answers have a lot more depth to them than you realize.  You have only scratched the surface.  Don't dismiss the answer because you failed to recognize that fact.  Look a little deeper.  Then deeper still.  Pretty soon, you should start realizing just how deep the rabbit hole goes.  Much of the understanding you seek is not intellectual, but spiritual.  But I'll try to give you some guidance down the rabbit hole.

First, you seem to be laboring under a false impression that we can somehow earn our way into heaven.  I know evangelicals accuse us of believing that.  But that simply isn't the case.  An eternal principal says that once we've sinned, there is no such thing as "earning" our way into heaven.  Nephi tells us that there is not one other way except by Jesus Christ.  Paul says that it isn't of our own accomplishment lest we should boast.  So, what makes you believe that you would be "worthy" just because you've changed the person you are?  And what is the motivation for your change anyway?  If that motivation is not centered on the Atonement, then it is pretty much useless.  Anything we do must be centered on the atonement or else it profiteth nothing.

Second, God is not "limited" by justice.  Does it truly make sense that "omnipotent" means that there are no rules?  There is no principle that is fundamental?  No rules that must stand immutable?  If that is the case, then there is no good nor evil.  Isn't the very definition of good that it abides by rules?  If God has no rules, what does good and evil even mean?  If evil can be good and good can be evil just at His good pleasure, then they really have no meaning.  

A similar line of reasoning must also be applied to justice and mercy.  If justice does not need to be satisfied, It doesn't matter whether you've changed or not.  Without justice, there is no right or wrong; good nor evil.  The meaning of evil means a breaking of an eternal law.  Every law must have a punishment or the law is just a paper tiger.  So, without justice, there is no punishment.  Without punishment, there is no law.  Without eternal laws, there is no meaning to good or evil. Without good or evil there is no God at all.

This is not a limitation, but definition.  As a human being we look at a rock and feel its roughness, its hardness, its weight, etc.  Are we "limited" because we don't have a rock that is liquid at room temperature and cools us off and replenishes our bodily fluids?  No, because it wouldn't be a rock anymore.  It would be water.  Why?  Because of definition, not limitation.

Pray about it for a while and ponder the topic.  You should realize that without justice NOTHING MATTERS.

Thank you for the reply.  Just an FYI, your opening can be taken as pretty condisending.  

Your first point basically can be summed up by saying "the reason you need the atonement is because you need the atonement."  Not very helpful.  Also, the reason you would be "worthy" is because you have become a Celestial person.  If I want to be worthy to compete at such a level as the Olympic games, I become worthy by becoming an Olympic level athlete.  Not because someone else convinces the Olympic committee to let me in and pays some thirdy party price.

I never said there are no rules, which is why I believe only those who "fit in" with those who are in the Celestial kingdom will be there.  Not because our Heavenly Father makes some decree, but because we are not the kind of being that would feel comfortable there (I believe this is very merciful.  The different degrees of glory provide a way for all of us, no matter what kind of beings we are, a place to be with those we fit in with).  I recognize the Saviors place in helping us become the kind of person that belongs in the Celestial Kingdom, but who is the Atonement making a payment to?  Who is it that demands a payment of sacrifice to satisfy this law?  If Heavenly Father is the law inventor, then he can also be the forgiver.  If he is not, and it is natural law, than there are natural punishments for my actions.  When I have purged all evil from my soul, what natural punishment will continue to come to me?

[zil]

FYI, you're not unique in wondering this, though I couldn't say how common it is / is not.  Further, the basic idea you describe below about becoming a celestial being is shared by (many of) those who believe in our need for a Savior (that is, we aren't forced or magically changed, we must participate in that change by our own choice and efforts - though our own efforts are insufficient).

IMO, I think it's critical that you do your own studying and praying (the references provided by @Edspringer are an excellent start).  No forum post (or collection of forum posts) is going to teach you this.  Also, you must recognize that this is something your spirit needs to learn (note the JST of verse 11), not (just) your intellect.

Specific comments are in the midst of your text, in a different color (before you react, read it all - it's too tightly tied together for any piece to be understood alone).

9 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

You seem to be under the impression that it's possible for someone, without Christ's Atonement, to become a celestial being.  It's not.  Not just because of the "paying for our sins" or "satisfying the demands of justice" part, but because of the enabling part (see Elder Bednar's talk on the same).  We could not breathe without Christ.  (No, that's not overt and explicitly in scripture, but there's enough hints in there to believe that He is the power by which we exist. See D&C 76:24 (D&C 93:10), D&C 88:11-13, 17)

The requirements of the celestial kingdom are complete perfection.  Once the first sin has been committed, there is no perfection, it's too late, you are lost forever because the sin happened and nothing you can do can reverse that.  You are no longer perfect and cannot become perfect yourself (see below).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  

Not against your will, but with your cooperation, yes, He can.  (While I don't think it's entirely accurate, it will suffice: do you suppose an athlete ever got to the Olympics without a coach?)

No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.

It enables you to become a celestial being, or more accurately, it enables him to help you become a celestial being.  (See Elder Bednar talk.)

 He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

How do you know they don't (require the Atonement)?  What is your evidence that his example is enough?  What is your evidence that without the Atonement of Christ, you could follow Christ's example?

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?

Perfection. Eternal, never disrupted perfection.

 Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.

We are not.  None of us.  Not even those worthy of Christ's gift of exaltation - they will have to continue to rely on him and progress until such time as they are made perfect in him.

 Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.

Oh yes, they do, if you meet your part of the covenant.  (Or possibly more accurately, He can help you because of His Atonement.)  Christ's Atonement is what makes it possible for Him to heal the harm we've done to each other, to forgive us, to lift us up, to offer us the grace we need to be exalted.

 Only practicing being a different person does that.

No.  Not only.  "Practicing" is your part of the covenant, and alone, it is insufficient.  You cannot undo the effects of your sins.  You cannot resurrect yourself.  You cannot pay justice (you have no credit wherewith to pay - you are already in debt the minute you commit even one sin and there is no way to earn credit except from Christ, who has infinite credit - life in himself, perfection).

 The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.

Not magically, but I contend you wouldn't know what love feels like were it not for the Savior.

 Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?

For the same reason a rock must fall when dropped.  There are laws, irrevocably decreed.  Even God cannot violate law (and remain God).  You are looking at laws the way one looks at man's law (those things politicians make and police "enforce").  You need to look at God's laws the way you look at the laws of physics.  They are not arbitrary, debated, agreed upon, etc..  They are.

 I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.

This is mercy, not justice.  Justice, we can only assume, is a universal mandate (it is).  It cannot be denied any more than a rock can choose not to fall when dropped.

 If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Because He too is subject to law.  Because He knows that this law is the only way for us to become as He is, and so He must follow it with us, no matter how heartbreaking that may be.

I don't believe any of us can understand Christ's Atonement, certainly not in mortality.  But we cannot return home without it.  He is the way, the truth, and the life.  I don't believe any of that is figurative.  We may not understand it, but without him, we have no life - through him, we can have life.  I believe, however, that regardless of our intellectual understanding of the rules / logic / mechanism of needing a Savior, we can have a testimony of it, and live by it, and in so doing, increase our understanding of it.

[zil]

7 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

 Just an FYI, your opening can be taken as pretty condisending.  

Please take it from someone who's interacted with @Carborendum for a while on these forums - it wasn't intended that way (and I didn't / don't see that in his post).  Sometimes strong feelings might seem that way, or different communication styles, but I'm certain no one who has replied to this thread so far feels this way or means for you to.

[zil]

12 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

 If he is not, and it is natural law, than there are natural punishments for my actions.  When I have purged all evil from my soul, what natural punishment will continue to come to me?

The punishment is eternal.  That is why it required an infinite and eternal sacrifice (and being mortal and finite, we don't understand).  Someone who had eternal life in himself, someone perfect, paid your (and my) eternal debt.  Having paid it, now Christ offers us an alternative to justice - mercy.

[jasonnooson]

4 hours ago, Awakened said:

Think of Justice in terms of spiritual math. Or maybe even just straight up math.

3-1=2 That -1 is sin. And in order to make it 3 again, that one needs to be added back. 2+1=3 The +1 is the payment. The recompense that cold logic and truth say is needed.

The problem is, we cannot help but keep on minusing 1's all year long, non-stop until we die. What are we to do about this gross inequality that we are helplessly creating? The only thing we can do about it just by ourselves is to pay for all those -1's full out. Over a lifetime or even just 20 years, that's an awful lot to pay back, needless to say! How can we avoid this? Is there anything that can be done to satisfy the inequality we cannot help but make constantly in our everyday lives?

The answer is a resounding YES. Those +1's can be given from another source. Justice wants balance. Nothing more or less. And by doing this, Justice's cold logical need of balance is fully satisfied without us having to pay anything. And that other source is Jesus Christ. He is willing to pay it all. He is balancing all of us out, he who has INFINITE +1's to give because he enacted an INSANELY powerful ordinance. The Atonement. A sheer incomprehensible act only a god could ever have performed. And all of this was done for us. All we have to do is accept his payment and his commandments. To do the best we can from not adding more -1's than we can help. To follow him.

Awakened,

Thank you for your response.

I don't believe that the beings in the Celestial kingdom will be beings who are good people who have just had their debts paid by someone else.  They will people who know how to BE Celestial Beings.  I believe there will be a time we are learning to be greater and greater beings, but this life is a time to "prepare to meet God."  This life is where we get ourselves on the path of eternal progression.

Cold hard logic does not show that no matter what kind of person I am someone else can just turn me into a Celestial type person by making some sort of currency payment to, well, who (I don't even understand who the payment is made to).  The thing is, everything we need to repent and be worthy of the Atonement's payment is exactly what we would need to do in order to become a Celestial Person.  So why the need for a payment?  Who is the payment to, some obscure concept of "Justice"?  How does this payment make me any different a person than I was before the payment?  

Concept of 3-1 = 2 above ASSUMES the need for a payment to begin with.  If you don't assume the need for an Atonement, I don't see how logic gets you to the need for it.

[estradling75]

24 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

Awakened,

Thank you for your response.

I don't believe that the beings in the Celestial kingdom will be beings who are good people who have just had their debts paid by someone else.  They will people who know how to BE Celestial Beings.  I believe there will be a time we are learning to be greater and greater beings, but this life is a time to "prepare to meet God."  This life is where we get ourselves on the path of eternal progression.

Cold hard logic does not show that no matter what kind of person I am someone else can just turn me into a Celestial type person by making some sort of currency payment to, well, who (I don't even understand who the payment is made to).  The thing is, everything we need to repent and be worthy of the Atonement's payment is exactly what we would need to do in order to become a Celestial Person.  So why the need for a payment?  Who is the payment to, some obscure concept of "Justice"?  How does this payment make me any different a person than I was before the payment?  

Concept of 3-1 = 2 above ASSUMES the need for a payment to begin with.  If you don't assume the need for an Atonement, I don't see how logic gets you to the need for it.

Yes we will need to BE Celestial Beings...  But that is not something that just happens by chances.. it is something we choose... it is something we learn... it is something we become.

In the process we make mistakes... we error.. we sin...   That in and of itself means we can never become Celestial Beings without help from outside ourselves.  Justice demands payment for our sins, errors, and mistake... payment we can not make.

Christ atonement doesn't magically turn us into Celestial people... it removes stumbling blocks that will hold us back.  It pays justice for us so we can continue to progress and become. 

 

 

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

If I want to be worthy to compete at such a level as the Olympic games, I become worthy by becoming an Olympic level athlete.  Not because someone else convinces the Olympic committee to let me in and pays some thirdy party price.

Your Olympic analogy is flawed: This isn't a competition. Father wants us all to come home, and there is plenty of room.

Justice is an eternal law. Justice cannot be cheated. Every sin must have a price paid. And none of us is capable of paying that price; Christ alone had the capacity to do it for us because He is the unblemished Lamb, unspotted from the world.

"Atonement" means "putting at one", that is, making the penitent the same as He is: clean in every whit. And only His blood can do it.

You are right, of course, that we must become Celestial beings. We do that by obeying the Commandments of God, but mere obedience is not enough. We must be "converted", i.e., changed from what we are (sinners and rebels) to "Celestials", conforming in every way to the laws of "Celestiousity". The Atonement is the only way that can happen. All the obedience in the world will not be sufficient for that. It doesn't even make it easier for the Atonement to work on us. That process requires infinite washing: the least sin is wholly polluting. You cannot pop a bubble just a little bit.

But we can advance our intelligence (light and truth) by study and by faith, and by obedience (as well as one is able).

I cannot recall exactly where I read this more than a half century ago, but the Spirit World is a classroom: we go from one study to another. We will have classes on Faith, on repentance, on the Atonement, on revelation, on every aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and we will learn to be Celestial beings (if we have already done the minimal work here, as far as we knew it). Some of us will already have mastered he rudiments of Faith, some more advanced concepts in that same subject. The latter will be better for their greater knowledge and practice, but they will still have infinitely more to learn. The same is true of all the other pieces of the puzzle: more to learn than any of us has every imagined, and much more than any of us has mastered.

So, we need a Sacrificed Mediator because nothing we can do is sufficient to wash away our own sins, and because we have, through sin, "divorced" ourselves from the family of God, we need an advocate (a better title, I think, than "Mediator") to plead with the Father to let us back into His household.

I see Jesus with His arm around my shoulder, we both standing before the Throne of God, saying, "Father, this is my son, Lehi. I have done what Thou hast asked of him. He is clean by my sacrifice. Wilt Thou let him in?" And, because of that Sacrifice, Father will say, "Yea, My Son. For Thy sake, I will let him in." And to me, "Lehi, enter into the rest of thy Lord."
Assuming, of course, that I have asked for, and received through repentance, the cleansing blood of the Lamb.

Lehi

Edited August 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[jasonnooson]

4 hours ago, Edspringer said:

I understand your concern. Don’t feel guilty for not understanding the atonement.

 

Please read the following:

 

The Book of Mormon. It is the best source to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. I recommend the whole book, but paying particular attention to 2 Nephi chapters 2, 9 though 11, Mosiah chapters  2 through 5, 12 through 15, Alma chapters 5, 7, 11 though 13, 34, 18, 21 through 22, 36, 39 through 42. Please note, in these chapters, the why of the atonement.

 

“The purifying power of Gethsemani”, by Elder Bruce R. McConkie;

 

“The atonement”, by Elder Russell M. Nelson;

 

“The Mediator”, by Elder Boyd K. Packer.

 

You might also want to read Cleon Skounsen’s“ intelligence theory”. It might help to get, at least, and idea of the importance of the atonement.

 

Here go some insights:

 

Elder Bruce R. McConkie said: “Now, the atonement of Christ is the most basic and fundamental doctrine of the gospel, and it is the least understood of all our revealed truths”. As I said, no one really understands the atonement in its fullness.

 

President Boyd K Packer once said that although we fail to understand the atonement due to our minds’ finite capacity, we can feel it every day of our lives and, thus, accept and desire its power upon us.

 

Presidente Ezra Taft Benso once said that, as well as we don’t appreciate food until we are hungry, we don’t appreciate the atonement until we need Christ.

 

Now this might take you a time to read:

 

To understand the atonement we need to understand our Heavenly Father’s plan: His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). He begot us as His spirt children, among all intelligences. He saw we could progress like Him and therefore He instituted laws through which we could advance in knowledge. As spirits we were given agency and knowledge. In the pre-mortal world, we progressed enough to go to the next step: receive a body. Without it we couldn’t become like our Father. But there would be a problem. We were immortal beings. Nothing God creates is finite, mortal. He Himself is eternal, infinite and immortal. But we needed a time to learn and acquire more light in the second estate. So death should be introduced in our second estate so we all would have a time to prepare to meet God (Alma 34:32). But after the separation of our spirts from our bodies (gifts from our Heavenly Father for our second estate), we couldn’t go back to His presence and, as Jacob said, we would become devils, angels to a devil (2 Nephi 9:7-8. Please read the whole chapter). Then we needed to be restored. But what power could do that? There should be a power greater than death to bring back the spirit to its body to separate no more. There was only One capable of such a thing and it was Jesus Christ. It was so due to the facts that He was our Father’s Firstborn, He received commandment, knowledge, authority and power from the Father that enabled Him to volunteer Himself for the position of Savior. He knew the mind of the Father perfectly and, thus, was chosen in the Grand Council.

 

So, the atonement of Christ gives us the chance not only to overcome death, but also ascend to a higher glory. Salvation is universal for all those who came, are or will ever come to this earth and possess a mortal body (except the sons of perdition).

 

But what is our role in the plan? Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His the perfect power of redemption, repent of our sins and desire to be cleansed, make and keep covenants, obey the commandments and endure to the end. If we do so, we will inherit the Celestial Glory in the highest degree and then we will be able not only to comprehend the atonement, but we ourselves will be able to exalt our spirit children through the same redeeming power.

 

We, for ourselves, can do nothing. Everything happens by and through the power of God Almighty, by and through the power of the atonement. Can our works make us go to Heaven? No, but there’s plenty to do on our own. Basically we have to align our will with the will of the Father, Who knows all. We have to have a perfect faith in Christ, which is trust wholly, completely in His merits, mercy and grace (2 Nephi 2:8).

 

Why do we need an atonement? Because we can’t resurrect ourselves from the grave; because we can’t pay the debt to justice. We have physical and spiritual limitations and could not atone for our own sins and give our lives and take them up again (Please read Alma 34 for further understanding). But Christ could. The Father gave Him the power to do so (John 5:19, 10:18). We need to desire redemption and advancement. We need to exercise our agency and rely on the merits of Christ and desire to take upon us His name, remember Him always and keep His commandments.

 

One last thought: God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Everything He does for His children is based on love. Do we deserve it by our own merits? No. But His love is perfect and wants us to live with Him eternally and share eternal life and exaltation.

 

 

 

Edspringer,
Thank you for the post and for the numerous references.  
Just a couple additional points.
Referencing the paragraph which starts “But after the separation…”:  
If we follow all of Heavenly Father’s commandments, believe in Christ’s teachings and learn to be like him, why would we be devils?  We wouldn’t be devils, we would be like Christ.  I don’t see how some suffering in a garden changes the fact that we would not be devils, but Christ like.  
“But what power could do that?” How about the same being who created us.  Our Heavenly Father.  He is all powerful, but he couldn’t allow a Christ like being to return to him unless he performs a sacrifice of his Son?  To Whom did he sacrifice his son?  Who external to our Father unlocked the door and allowed our Father to accept the Christ like “devil” into his kingdom?  You would say “Christ”, but later you say that Christ got the power to perform the atonement from the Father.  So that becomes a circular argument.  
In reference to “We, for ourselves, can do nothing. Everything happens by and through the power of God Almighty, by and through the power of the atonement. Can our works make us go to Heaven? No, but there’s plenty to do on our own. Basically we have to align our will with the will of the Father, Who knows all.”:
At first you say we can do nothing, but then it says we must align our will to the will of the Father.  Which is it?  Our whole purpose for this life is to learn to align our will to the will of the Father.  That is way we have opportunities to learn here.  That is why the Brother of Jared was asked by Christ what he wanted him to do instead of just telling him how to fix his problem.  So if we have learned to align our will to the will of our all might Father in Heaven, why is our Father still not allowed to allow us into his kingdom without sacrificing his Son to….to what?
 

Thank you again for all of the references.  I will look into them.

[jasonnooson]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I'm going to put these out there for you to ponder:

Celestial:  To be completely ONE in WILL with the Father - requires knowledge.

Eternal Law:  No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.  Unclean = that which is contrary to the Will of God (sin).

Consequence of the Eternal Law:  Death (eternal separation from the Father - this transcends mortal death, it is a spiritual death).

When a spirit sins, the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence.

So then The Father desired for us to Progress - to have more knowledge, especially the knowledge of good and evil so that we can learn to have our WIll be One with God by choosing that which is good.

But then, gaining that knowledge means we have to go where SIN is present (mortality) - where The Father cannot dwell.  The price for sin is eternal separation from The Father - we cannot ever come back to His presence - eternally.

So when the plan was presented to the pre-mortal spirits, we despaired.  We were caught between a rock and a hard place - To progress, we must become mortal (unlcean/sin)... to become mortal, we must die (not just mortal death but spiritual death - the price for sin, eternal separation from the Father).  If we don't go through the plan to progress, we cannot live with the Father either as we lacked knowledge.   It was an impossible situation.

The only way to overcome that price for death is to have someone else who is clean (no sin) die (spiritual death, not just mortal death) in our stead.  That person is Jesus Christ - someone who is already of One Will with the Father, clean, sinless... die for our sake.  When he cried out on the cross, "Father, why have you abandoned me?" that was his desperate plea to the Father in the extreme agony of having been completely spiritually separated from Him.  His resurrection and ascension back to the presence of the Father was possible because even as Jesus was spiritually dead (completely separated from the Father), Jesus was still God and, therefore, never lost his qualification for Celestial being.

Christ's spiritual death made it possible for us to fullfill a lower law (the law of Christ - Follow me and be saved) to fulfill the consequence of the Eternal law (spiritual death).

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply.  I have already replied several times on here so I will make this brief.  I agree with your definitions at the top.  I agree we need to become one with God.  I agree we need knowledge.  I agree we must be clean, meaning we are at one with the will of God.  But how do we get from this to "we need God to sacrifice his son to the law" or else a being that is at one with God's will can't come back to him.  That does not make sense to me.  You said "the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence." The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it.  If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him.  I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it.  I don't see how that follows

[jasonnooson]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I'm going to put these out there for you to ponder:

Celestial:  To be completely ONE in WILL with the Father - requires knowledge.

Eternal Law:  No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.  Unclean = that which is contrary to the Will of God (sin).

Consequence of the Eternal Law:  Death (eternal separation from the Father - this transcends mortal death, it is a spiritual death).

When a spirit sins, the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence.

So then The Father desired for us to Progress - to have more knowledge, especially the knowledge of good and evil so that we can learn to have our WIll be One with God by choosing that which is good.

But then, gaining that knowledge means we have to go where SIN is present (mortality) - where The Father cannot dwell.  The price for sin is eternal separation from The Father - we cannot ever come back to His presence - eternally.

So when the plan was presented to the pre-mortal spirits, we despaired.  We were caught between a rock and a hard place - To progress, we must become mortal (unlcean/sin)... to become mortal, we must die (not just mortal death but spiritual death - the price for sin, eternal separation from the Father).  If we don't go through the plan to progress, we cannot live with the Father either as we lacked knowledge.   It was an impossible situation.

The only way to overcome that price for death is to have someone else who is clean (no sin) die (spiritual death, not just mortal death) in our stead.  That person is Jesus Christ - someone who is already of One Will with the Father, clean, sinless... die for our sake.  When he cried out on the cross, "Father, why have you abandoned me?" that was his desperate plea to the Father in the extreme agony of having been completely spiritually separated from Him.  His resurrection and ascension back to the presence of the Father was possible because even as Jesus was spiritually dead (completely separated from the Father), Jesus was still God and, therefore, never lost his qualification for Celestial being.

Christ's spiritual death made it possible for us to fullfill a lower law (the law of Christ - Follow me and be saved) to fulfill the consequence of the Eternal law (spiritual death).

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply.  I have already replied several times on here so I will make this brief.  I agree with your definitions at the top.  I agree we need to become one with God.  I agree we need knowledge.  I agree we must be clean, meaning we are at one with the will of God.  But how do we get from this to "we need God to sacrifice his son to the law" or else a being that is at one with God's will can't come back to him.  That does not make sense to me.  You said "the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence." The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it.  If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him.  I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it.  I don't see how that follows

[mordorbund]

I would suggest that the mechanics of the Atonement are a mystery - that is, they cannot be known except through revelation and that revelation has not yet come. Prophets ancient and modern have used metaphors and analogies to get us pondering on it so that such knowledge may be "caught" rather than "taught". Of course, the failings of analogies is that they aren't the real thing (right, pa-atrick).

36 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it.

If He creates the law, I think it's valid to ask why did. He set it up so that His Son had to Atone. The law, as He made it is two-tiered: If you die in your sins you are damned; if you die with past sins you are forgiven. So why is there any need for the Atonement? From my experience (and I think this is what @estradling75 was getting at), part of the mechanics of leaving your sins in the past requires it - that is, you cannot get gold from lead without transforming the very elements, and it seems like the Atonement is the catalyst that transforms telestial beings to celestial. The scriptures refer to this as sanctification. (this may also only be the rule in this order of creation). Admittedly, this hasn't gotten us very far, because that just leads to asking why was this order of creation designed to require the Atonement? The question is still unanswered (so much for logic).

19 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

 If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him.  I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it.  I don't see how that follows

The general consensus on this board seems to be that God is not the law-giver, but rather the law-teacher. That is, the laws of progression already existed and He is mentoring us to make the most of them. If this is the case, then your obejection is, frankly, nonsense. Using @zil's gravity example, I could just as well ask, "What law requires that I fall off a cliff when I run over the edge? Natural Law that everyone is subject to? Then it seems that Natural Law would be that so long as I keep running and don't look down I won't fall. I don't understand how a Natural Law would require that I fall even if I'm unaware of the lack of solid earth under my feet." If eternal law requires payment, then it requires payment. As with all such laws, we accept it and use it to our advantage. This particular model fits in very well with what the scriptures describe as justification. Of course, this is also frustrating because there is no "why", it just is. Not only is the question unanswered, but it is also unanswerable.

Of course, I return back to my opening paragraph. All this may just be gibberish. If the weighty "why" of the Atonement is to be answered, it is to be answered by God.

[Just_A_Guy]

58 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Christ atonement doesn't magically turn us into Celestial people... it removes stumbling blocks that will hold us back.  It pays justice for us so we can continue to progress and become.

There's more to it than that.  Jesus is not just the "divine clockmaker" who set the plan in motion, which plan then perfects us of its own accord in direct proportion to our own efforts.  There's an enabling power in the atonement that makes it possible for each of us to do what we need to do in this "becoming" process.  D&C 76:69 hints at this, when it describes the Celestial as "just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant". 

Thus Elder (then President) Bednar:

I frankly do not think many of us “get it” concerning this enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement, and I wonder if we mistakenly believe we must make the journey from good to better and become a saint all by ourselves through sheer grit, willpower, and discipline, and with our obviously limited capacities.

Thus the Bible Dictionary:

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Thus the October 2013 Ensign (written by Carolyn Rasmus, who I had the good fortune to teach Gospel Doctrine with some years ago):

When we understand the enabling power of the Atonement, we will be changed; we will have access to strength beyond our natural abilities, our weakness can be turned to strength, and we can know that “in the strength of the Lord” we can “do all things” (Alma 20:4).

 

[jasonnooson]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Yes we will need to BE Celestial Beings...  But that is not something that just happens by chances.. it is something we choose... it is something we learn... it is something we become.

In the process we make mistakes... we error.. we sin...   That in and of itself means we can never become Celestial Beings without help from outside ourselves.  Justice demands payment for our sins, errors, and mistake... payment we can not make.

Christ atonement doesn't magically turn us into Celestial people... it removes stumbling blocks that will hold us back.  It pays justice for us so we can continue to progress and become. 

 

 

Why would making an error mean we can never become Celestial Beings?  As you said, "it is something we become." How do we become something different here in the mortal world?  By learning, either by books, a mentor, experiance, and then we apply that new knowledge.  The application repeated changes us.  When we error, it teaches us.  Errors one of the BEST teachers actually.  It is the making of errors and learning from them that is so fundimental to us becoming anything.  So it does not seem to follow that errors in and of itself means we can never become Celestial Beings.  Under any other circumstance we would not accept this logic.

If I asked someone how to become an Olympic athlete and they said, "You need to work really hard, you need to learn all you can about your sport and how to train.  You need to do everything you can.  But that will still not be enough.  You will also need "Ted" who has never made a mistake in your sport, never had a single flaw in your sport, to make a payment (you pick the kind of payment) to Justice and then you will be good enough to compete at the Olympic level" we would say "That makes no sense."  We may want "Ted" as a mentor and a coach, but what does his payment have to do with whether I am good enough to compete at the Olympic level?

I know what the scriptures say about justice.  My issue is that there is no logical mechanism that I can see that justifies our Heavenly Father sacrificing his Son to remove a barrier. 

[mordorbund]

6 minutes ago, jasonnooson said:

We may want "Ted" as a mentor and a coach, but what does his payment have to do with whether I am good enough to compete at the Olympic level?

It is true that the Spirit knows all things, but that He may more fully coach His team, "Ted" has voluntarily taken all the yellow cards. I can't tell you how the two are linked, but the scriptures say they are.

[tesuji]

First, you are correct that it is all about becoming a Celestial person. That's how I understand it, anyway. God does't just tap us with a magic wand at the end to make us Celestial. We become that way by obeying God's commandments, along with the atonement of Christ.

 

However, you cannot earn your way back to God by yourself. You cannot exalt yourself, not by any power you have and not by your deeds alone.

 

By being born onto this earth, you are subject to temptation and ignorance, and you will sin. It's part of the plan. However, no unclean thing can be with God, and only Christ can take away that sin to make you clean. We are saved by grace after all we can do, the Book of Mormon says.

 

I think of it like travelling from America to Europe. I can drive myself to the airport, but I do not have an air plane and I don't know how to fly it. Christ is like the pilot who has a plane, to get us across a gulf we cannot cross on our own.

 

The universe obeys God because he is just. If he acted unjustly in any way, the spirits and the elements that make up the cosmos would no longer obey him. He would cease to be God, as the Book of Mormon says.

 

The atonement provides a special exception the general rule of God being perfectly just. God and the cosmos say that you and I are unclean and unworthy (despite all we can do), but if Christ, the Son of God who did no sin, loved us enough to suffer infinitely for us, then for his sake we will be allowed to come back to God. If we obey strict guidelines (commandments).

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

dup

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

This talk explains it very well:

Quote

The Mediator
Boyd K. Packer
Of the Council of the Twelve

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/the-mediator?lang=eng&_r=1

 

[tesuji]

dup

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Thank you for your reply.  I have already replied several times on here so I will make this brief.  I agree with your definitions at the top.  I agree we need to become one with God.  I agree we need knowledge.  I agree we must be clean, meaning we are at one with the will of God.  But how do we get from this to "we need God to sacrifice his son to the law" or else a being that is at one with God's will can't come back to him.  That does not make sense to me.  You said "the law requires that the spirit gets banished from God's presence." The law requires it? What law? If you say "God's Law" then he is the creator of it and is not bound by it because if he created it he can alter it.  If you say "Natural Law that even God is subject to" then it seams the "Natural Law" would be that if you are like God you can be with him.  I don't understand how a Natural Law would require God to sacrifice his Son to it.  I don't see how that follows

Eternal Law is that Will that makes The Father God.

Okay, here is an example:

The US Constitution (drafted by the founding fathers) state that only those who are American Citizens become President.  This is the law.  This is the WILL of the Founding Fathers.  Now, let's say a founding father says... well, there's this really awesome guy over in the Philippines.  Let's just go ahead and ignore the law so he can be a US President.  Well, he is a founding father, so he should just be able to change the law right?  He created it, so he should just be able to alter it, right?   I mean, if he can't change it then doesn't that mean that he is powerless after all?   But then, why did that founding father bother creating that law when he could just change it?  Did he make a mistake when he first made the law?   I mean - was there no reason at all that that founding father required American citizenship to be President in the first place?  If there was no reason, then why make that law?  And if there is a reason but the founding father just decides to ignore it or change it at will... then that reason was not important after all?  So why bother making that law in the first place?

Think of it as God - God has perfect knowledge.  God WILLED such Eternal Law.  Why would a God have such law if he's just gonna go ahead and ignore it?  Isn't it more the case that The Father KNOWS that the law is good which is why it is law and He Wills for it to be such?

That Will that freely desires such Eternal Law - that Will that is one with that Eternal Law by virtue of free agency - that is the Will that makes The Father God.  To desire something contrary to that Eternal Law is to cease to be God.  And that is why Baal is a false God - because his will is contrary with that Eternal Law.  And that is why Jesus Christ is a true God - because his will is one with that Eternal Law.  An Eternal Law that is one thing today and a different thing tomorrow is not Eternal Law - it is a passing whim and is not of God.  And if such an Eternal Law is not perfectly good, then it is not God.  The Father desires it.  It is good.  It is of God.  When we desire the same, we can be one with God - no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

Edited August 9, 2016 by anatess2