I’m not sure there has ever been an issue that has/will separate the wheat from the tares like homosexuality

[FogCity]

I often feel defeated when people challenge me that LDS beliefs are discriminatory.  Unfortunately, God is discriminatory.   I have a testimony of the plan of salvation, the family proclamation and why bringing children into the world is essential to that plan.  It certainly appears to me that the LDS Churches stance on homosexuality is a line drawn in the sand that says you are either with us or against us.  For the first time, I have felt that the LDS Church is exclusionary versus welcoming.   I have found this challenging.  It’s a clear indication that the gospel and the world are drifting apart.

 

I understand it.  I get that in order to be truly sanctified we need to be challenged in these ways.  I just wanted to honestly admit that I’m not finding it easy.  Some of my family and friend relationships are being tested by this.  It’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it.

[estradling75]

Understand that homosexuality is just the latest challenge...

Black's and the Priesthood has been another..

Plural Marriage has been another...

And those are just the major ones...

Almost anytime a Church leader opens their mouth you can bet that someone will get offended.

And yes it can be uncomfortable... there is a reason it is likened to being forged in the furnace of affliction

[FogCity]

27 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Understand that homosexuality is just the latest challenge...

Black's and the Priesthood has been another..

Plural Marriage has been another...

And those are just the major ones...

Almost anytime a Church leader opens their mouth you can bet that someone will get offended.

And yes it can be uncomfortable... there is a reason it is likened to being forged in the furnace of affliction

I agree. 

The difference for me is that Priesthood and Plural Marriage aren't current social issues   Homosexuality is.

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, FogCity said:

I agree. 

The difference for me is that Priesthood and Plural Marriage aren't current social issues   Homosexuality is.

They aren't now...  but not really all that long ago they were the current social issues.

The Lord knows all the current social issues we are currently facing, and that we will face in the future and we are advised to trust him.

The only thing we really have control of is how we respond to the sifting.  Do we choose to become a wheat or do we choose to become a tare?  Either way the process of proving that choice is going to be hard and unpleasant

[bytebear]

And in 20 years there will be another social issue.  I suspect it will be transgender or priesthood related. Or maybe polygamy but from the other side of the argument.

[Awakened]

I think people take homosexuality way too seriously, from both sides of the camp. It's just a dumb sexual attraction. It's not supposed to be a way of life.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Awakened

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

4 hours ago, Awakened said:

I think people take homosexuality way too seriously, from both sides of the camp. It's just a dumb sexual attraction. It's not supposed to be a way of life.

I agree that it is just one aspect of who we are. We are so much more than our sexual orientation.  That said, it really is a way of life when you consider that we encourage kids at 14 to start attending church dances...to what?  Mingle with the opposite sex. (It's about sexual orientation.)   At 16 they can group date, and later start dating for courtship.  Marriage and family are a central part of the gospel (as they should be). So when your sexual orientation precludes you from all of that, it's really painful and impossible to just ignore it.    While we should not condone immorality, neither should we judge people whose trials we don't understand.  (And thank goodness,  I don't want to have the understanding of "lived experience" on this one.  I think this is one of the most difficult trials.) 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

15 hours ago, FogCity said:

I understand it.  I get that in order to be truly sanctified we need to be challenged in these ways.  I just wanted to honestly admit that I’m not finding it easy.  Some of my family and friend relationships are being tested by this.  It’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it.

You're not alone.  Many people, good righteous people, are struggling to understand these issues and do God's will.  Hang in there.  Keep praying, stay humble.  

[Guest]

I'd agree that polygamy was a big one back in the day. And it may still be a thorn in the side of many today.  But it is different than homosexuality in one major way.

The concept of polygamy, although scriptural, was an abhorrent sexual perversion to the righteous people of the day.  Even the Lord says that He'd prefer it to not be practiced.  And if He does wish it practiced, it should be under specific rules.  So, for the early Saints to have a problem with it (and even the Saints of today) it is still somewhat in line with the Lord's will to feel that way.  They have a righteous leg to stand on.

Homosexuality has never been an accepted practice unto the Lord.  There are NO conditions that the Lord has provided thus far under which it is to be practiced and still be acceptable before Him.  So, for those who reject the prohibition of gay marriage have no leg to stand on.  The only argument for it is that of "freedom" and "tolerance", in other words "license".  

License is not in line with any gospel principle.  And contrary to popular opinion, license is contrary to the principle of free agency.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So when your sexual orientation precludes you from all of that, it's really painful and impossible to just ignore it.    While we should not condone immorality, neither should we judge people whose trials we don't understand.

And here is the sad thing about homosexuality.  The Church does not discriminate against them - they separate themselves from the Church.  Church dances and the like is to teach males and females to respect each other and learn to identify the qualities of a spouse.  One's sexual attraction to somebody is not the end-all be-all of choosing a spouse.  The movie Imitation Game depicts this almost to perfection - Alan Turing and Joan Clark's relationship had all the elements that makes the foundation of a happy marriage except one.  Alan Turing is not sexually attracted to Joan Clark.  Yet, that ONE THING - physical desire - was not something Turing wanted to overcome even as Clark was willing to overcome it.

Many people go into marriage knowing they have to overcome one faulty foundation in some form or other that they found out about a person during Church dances or group dates, etc. - addiction issues, psychological issues, fertility issues, past sinfulness, physical disabilities, cultural differences, etc.  I don't have to understand addiction issues, psychological issues, homosexual issues, fertility issues etc. etc. to know it is a difficult thing to overcome - I have my own problems to overcome that is difficult as well.

Homosexuals separate themselves from the Church because they don't think their sexual attraction is something they need to overcome.  That's not on the Church.

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by anatess2

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, FogCity said:

I often feel defeated when people challenge me that LDS beliefs are discriminatory.  Unfortunately, God is discriminatory.   I have a testimony of the plan of salvation, the family proclamation and why bringing children into the world is essential to that plan.  It certainly appears to me that the LDS Churches stance on homosexuality is a line drawn in the sand that says you are either with us or against us.  For the first time, I have felt that the LDS Church is exclusionary versus welcoming.   I have found this challenging.  It’s a clear indication that the gospel and the world are drifting apart.

 

I understand it.  I get that in order to be truly sanctified we need to be challenged in these ways.  I just wanted to honestly admit that I’m not finding it easy.  Some of my family and friend relationships are being tested by this.  It’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it.

 

There are, I believe, two ancient symbols of discrimination against the saints of G-d.  These two symbols are Sodom and Gomorrah.  Most theologians and religious thinkers have come to believe that Sodom is the symbol of homosexuality but I think that is somewhat in error.  I believe Sodom is symbolic of much more.  I believe it to be symbolic of individual wants, desires, passions and pleasures in contrast to the covenant and sacrifice necessary to establish and preserve the divine order of  families.  There is an interesting passage in the Book of Enoch - a book lost from scripture but quoted as scripture in the New Testament in the Book of Jude.   This passage highlights two problems among mankind that are in part responsible for the Flood of Noah.  The two items were that mankind "changed the order of marriage" and the second was that "children were conceived for carnal purposes". 

But there is also a second symbol in Gomorrah of which most theologians and religious thinkers have forgotten or thought it tied to Sodom and not a symbol of something else.  I sometimes think this symbol to be even more treacherous because of the more subtle influence on the saints of G-d and the reason that the righteous Lot turned towards Sodom and Gomorrah in the first place.   Without going into all the details I believe that the sin of Gomorrah is to trust money and wealth more than G-d and his covenants.

In short the challenge to the saints has, in my mind, always been the same - even in the Book of Mormon - The challenge is pleasures (I personally see the addiction {trust} of drugs or alcohol as similar to sexual addictions) - and also the challenge of wealth or money as a substitution for faith in G-d.  That freedom comes from money and not from the covenants of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Homosexuals separate themselves from the Church because they don't think their sexual attraction is something they need to overcome.  That's not on the Church.

SOME homosexuals separate themselves from the church, SOME do not.  Sexual orientation is not an indicator of faithfulness in the church.

[Traveler]

57 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

SOME homosexuals separate themselves from the church, SOME do not.  Sexual orientation is not an indicator of faithfulness in the church.

 

I agree with the intent of your post but not necessarily the terms used.  For me there is a very big difference between same sex attraction and a homosexual.  This is because the word sex in homosexual implies an activity or behavior.  I would also note that sex is an cognitive activity or behavior and I believe all cognitive behaviors in an intelligent being must be understood to be a controllable behavior and in this case - I believe the behavior controlled are allowed in a manner to be contrary to the covenants of G-d and divine appointment of family constitutes a rebellion to the laws and the grace (note that I have included the rebellion against the grace) of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

57 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

SOME homosexuals separate themselves from the church, SOME do not.  Sexual orientation is not an indicator of faithfulness in the church.

 

I agree with the intent of your post but not necessarily the terms used.  For me there is a very big difference between same sex attraction and a homosexual.  This is because the word sex in homosexual implies an activity or behavior.  I would also note that sex is an cognitive activity or behavior and I believe all cognitive behaviors in an intelligent being must be understood to be a controllable behavior and in this case - I believe the behavior controlled are allowed in a manner to be contrary to the covenants of G-d and divine appointment of family constitutes a rebellion to the laws and the grace (note that I have included the rebellion against the grace) of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

SOME homosexuals separate themselves from the church, SOME do not.  Sexual orientation is not an indicator of faithfulness in the church.

We were talking about separation of wheat and tares.  I was talking about the homosexuals that separate themselves from the Church and not the ones that do.  But yes, it doesn't hurt to explicitly clarify it.

[FogCity]

I have watched my conservative father-in-law struggle as my sister-in-law has flip flopped between being gay or straight.  The one positive he gained out of that experience is that it forced him to be more accepting and Christlike in his dealings with her boyfriends and girlfriends.  Not to the same degree, but I believed it has humbled me and made me more accepting and compassionate.  But still lots to learn.

 

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, FogCity said:

.  But still lots to learn.

We all have lots to learn. Both gay and straight, in my view. 

[Awakened]

11 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Marriage and family are a central part of the gospel (as they should be). So when your sexual orientation precludes you from all of that, it's really painful and impossible to just ignore it.

http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html

^ I think that should be required reading for LDS'.

TL;DR - "Here is the basic reality that I actually think many people could use a lesson in: sex is about more than just visual attraction and lust and it is about more than just passion and infatuation. I won’t get into the boring details of the research here, but basically when sex is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their sex lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection. And Lolly and I have had that from day one, mostly because we weren’t distracted by the powerful chemicals of infatuation and obsession that usually bring a couple together (which dwindle dramatically after the first few years of marriage anyway)."

Edited August 16, 2016 by Awakened

[Just_A_Guy]

On 8/15/2016 at 2:34 PM, estradling75 said:

Understand that homosexuality is just the latest challenge...

Black's and the Priesthood has been another..

Plural Marriage has been another...

And those are just the major ones...

Almost anytime a Church leader opens their mouth you can bet that someone will get offended.

And yes it can be uncomfortable... there is a reason it is likened to being forged in the furnace of affliction

Then again, both the priesthood ban and the practice of polygamy had built-in "escape clauses", in that we always knew that the priesthood ban would have an end (we just didn't know when) and that polygamy was only allowed *sometimes*. 

I don't see any theological wiggle room for the notion that exaltation is contingent on a temple marriage to someone of the opposite sex.  We're going to be stuck with this one, no matter how hard societies and governments lean on us.

[Jojo Bags]

On 8/15/2016 at 2:27 PM, FogCity said:

I often feel defeated when people challenge me that LDS beliefs are discriminatory.  Unfortunately, God is discriminatory.   I have a testimony of the plan of salvation, the family proclamation and why bringing children into the world is essential to that plan.  It certainly appears to me that the LDS Churches stance on homosexuality is a line drawn in the sand that says you are either with us or against us.  For the first time, I have felt that the LDS Church is exclusionary versus welcoming.   I have found this challenging.  It’s a clear indication that the gospel and the world are drifting apart.

 

I understand it.  I get that in order to be truly sanctified we need to be challenged in these ways.  I just wanted to honestly admit that I’m not finding it easy.  Some of my family and friend relationships are being tested by this.  It’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it.

The attacks against faithful LDS who stand up against homosexuality are a smaller part of the socialist agenda.  In his book, "The Naked Communist," Cleon Skousen talked about how one of the goals of socialists/communists was to get Americans to accept this perversion as normal and natural.  The socialist agenda it the complete takeover of American and they have almost completed it. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, Awakened said:

http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html

^ I think that should be required reading for LDS'.

TL;DR - "Here is the basic reality that I actually think many people could use a lesson in: sex is about more than just visual attraction and lust and it is about more than just passion and infatuation. I won’t get into the boring details of the research here, but basically when sex is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their sex lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection. And Lolly and I have had that from day one, mostly because we weren’t distracted by the powerful chemicals of infatuation and obsession that usually bring a couple together (which dwindle dramatically after the first few years of marriage anyway)."

I totally agree.  Josh and Lolly are friends of mine (yes, I'm blessed.  :) )  I have been heavily influenced in my thoughts on issue by them.  They are also the ones that have helped me understand how very painful this issue is for Gay people.  

[Awakened]

36 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I totally agree.  Josh and Lolly are friends of mine (yes, I'm blessed.  :) )  I have been heavily influenced in my thoughts on issue by them.  They are also the ones that have helped me understand how very painful this issue is for Gay people.  

True indeed. But every one of us has something we seriously struggle with. whether it be in-born disability, addictive personalities, bad parenting, poverty, or even war. Homosexuality is just another personal struggle, albeit a tough one.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Awakened

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

46 minutes ago, Awakened said:

True indeed. But every one of us has something we seriously struggle with. whether it be in-born disability, addictive personalities, bad parenting, poverty, or even war. Homosexuality is just another personal struggle, albeit a tough one.

I think we 95% agree.  :)  I'm not trying to argue, just clarify.  I agree that we all have serious struggles, that's the nature of earth life.  But I also think there are some struggles that are harder than others.  That said, comparisons don't help much, and when you are the middle of something that is all you can handle, it might as well be the worst thing in the world. You know?   Just looking at my own adversities, there were some that seemed really difficult at the time I was in them, but they pale in comparison to other things I have experienced.  

[Edspringer]

On 15/08/2016 at 5:27 PM, FogCity said:

I often feel defeated when people challenge me that LDS beliefs are discriminatory.  Unfortunately, God is discriminatory.   I have a testimony of the plan of salvation, the family proclamation and why bringing children into the world is essential to that plan.  It certainly appears to me that the LDS Churches stance on homosexuality is a line drawn in the sand that says you are either with us or against us.  For the first time, I have felt that the LDS Church is exclusionary versus welcoming.   I have found this challenging.  It’s a clear indication that the gospel and the world are drifting apart.

 

I understand it.  I get that in order to be truly sanctified we need to be challenged in these ways.  I just wanted to honestly admit that I’m not finding it easy.  Some of my family and friend relationships are being tested by this.  It’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it.

Hi, there

LDS beliefs aren't discriminatory. God isn't discriminatory.

All Church policies, laws and commandments come from God by revelation, thus it can only be understood by revelation from God Himself and are for the welfare of mankind. The purpose of life is happiness (2 Nephi 2:25) and wickedness never was happiness (Alma 41:10). Men are sufficiently taught to choose from good and evil (2 Nephi 2:27). What we need to know is the mind of God, who knows all things and has the power to lift us up to eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Since I’m not a spokesman for the Church, please watch this video with Elder David A. Bednar, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, talking about the issue:

Edited August 17, 2016 by Edspringer
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