Dating advice for a new member

[Elifas]

Hi, ladies and gentlemen.
Need an urgent advice on dating question from you. I'm a new member who came to Utah from another part of the world (so, sorry for my English) and I got in an awkward situation just now. I have an amazing YSA ward, where literally every person contributed to my spiritual growth and helped me become a person who I am now. You'd expect that sooner or later I'll get a crash on someone of these wonderful people who surrounds me and that's happened. Last week I found courage and asked the loveliest and shiest girl for a date. She agreed and, though I'm usually not good with communication with girls, this time I rocked. We decided to repeat and second date was even more awesome. Yesterday we met at Sacrament and walked together home on planning the third one (yee-haw). Imagine my surprise when several hours later, she showed up for ward prayer holding hands with another guy and behaving like she doesn't know me. Today she signed up to come to FHE with him. Being in a little frustration, I asked one of my friends, what the heck could it mean. He said approx. this: "that's sick Mormon views on dating, bro. Until dating not become a courtship you have no responsibilities before each other. So it's a common thing to see a girl who was on a date with you yesterday, with another guy today. It happens through and through."
My friend is an ex-member and his opinion is pretty biased, so I need your advice. Is it really, Utah-specific way of dating? US is a fourth country where I'm living and even in Europe, where people run from responsibilities all way through relationship, you can't date two guys at the same time. Sorry for my "culture shock", I'm a big boy and can survive rejection, but I hate to be in awkward situations.
Will be glad for your advice.

[estradling75]

Simple...  People respond differently depending on what they want and expect.

The church teaches young people to date and explorer their options so they can select the right spouse.  Many understandably take this to mean they should date as many people as possible.  A totally reasonable conclusion.

She could very easily be one of those  Saying yes to whomever asks, until one of them tells her they are serious and they mutually agree to a more exclusive arrangement.

Still the only real way to find out what is up with her is to ask.   Ask her out on another date, if she says no, then it is over.  If she says yes then spend part of the date discussing that aspect of her thoughts, reasonings, and actions.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by estradling75

[Just_A_Guy]

I generally agree with @estradling75, but I do think that letting a relationship turn physical  (even just hand-holding) ought to imply a certain degree of exclusivity.  If you think that too, and she doesn't, then it's probably time to move on to someone who is a little more discriminating.

[Jane_Doe]

Utah is a pretty unique place when it comes to dating culture-- because there are actually 2 dating cultures existing in the same place.  Which one people participate in varies on the person and you can only find out by asking someone.  (Note: my below descriptions are exaggerated to highlight the difference).

Culture #1) Guy ask girl out to a movie (or vise versa) and they are now automatically in an exclusive relationship.  The guy may never be alone with another girl less he be accused cheating (and vise versa).  Due to to simply watching a movie together they are now highly committed to each other until marriage or dramatic break up.  (This culture is the most prevalent other places).

Culture #2) Culture #2 was more prevalent historically.  Where going to a movie is just going to a movie, not a marriage proposal.  A guy may go see "Dr. Strange" with Sarah on Friday and "Arrival" on with Rachel on Saturday and not be cheating--- cause all they are doing is seeing a movie.  They are not automatically exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend debating on marriage.  This relationship may develop into an exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend, but it is not automatically assumed to be thus.  If you want to know with someone, you ask them.

 

Like I said, which culture people participate in is very person by person.  I'm a very much #1 person.  My sister is very much a #2 and would go out to have fun with 4 different guys interchangeably (they all knew this, nothing was secret).  Eventually she and this certain guy got serious then it was just him.  They since have gotten married.  

If you want to know what this girl is up to or what her feelings are, just ask her.

[Elifas]

Thanks for detailed answers, guys. It's really helpful.
I must admit it differs drastically from what I'm used to. From where I came from first dates don't mean relationship either, but you can't just "try" another guy/girl at the same time. Plus, isn't it awkward to take one guy to the place where another will be? Because in my example, he is not a member and the only way he could came to church activities is by her invitation. Before your explanation, I really thought that it was done intentionally to make things tense.

Well, I guess to ask is the only option. I just need to survive FHE today evening.

[Jane_Doe]

21 minutes ago, Elifas said:

I must admit it differs drastically from what I'm used to. From where I came from first dates don't mean relationship either, but you can't just "try" another guy/girl at the same time.

Admittedly it is VERY different than what 99% of people are currently used to.  It has its good sides and down sides. 

21 minutes ago, Elifas said:

Plus, isn't it awkward to take one guy to the place where another will be?

"Awkward" is all culturally based and dependent on what you're used to.  My sister would go out to a movie with Mike on Friday, and then to prom with John on Saturday.  Meanwhile, Mike would be at the same prom with his date Sally.    On the other extreme, when a guy asked me out for Chinese food, for a silly reason I felt obligated to ask his ex for permission (they went on grand total of 3 dates over 2 years before that!).  

Edited November 14, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

I was totally smitten with my future wife when we went out. So my response was to go out and find another girl to date seriously so I could compare. Immature? Absolutely. Disgusting? I'm disgusted with my past self. Shameful? Color me deeply ashamed. But that's how it was.

Until you are actually engaged, expect your girlfriend to date other people. Until you are actually married, she can back out. So your feelings may have been accurate, and maybe she's just painfully immature or something. (Not unlikely, in fact.) But she has the right to hold hands with another guy, even if it may violate her expression of feelings for you.

Here's a tough solution (but it's a real solution, or at least a step in that direction): Go talk to her. Be very open about your feelings for her and how you thought things were. Then ask her how she really feels and what she thinks you can expect. It's totally exposing yourself, but you stand a good chance of clarifying what's going on.

[Elifas]

Thank you for answers again. It's all very logic. But automatically generates a new question in my mind: when in this strange (for me at least) dating culture usually guys raise the question of courtship? I mean, if this particular girl likes to go on dates with different people wouldn't it scare her out if I'll raise the issue on a third date (one week from the first one)?

[Jane_Doe]

33 minutes ago, Elifas said:

Thank you for answers again. It's all very logic. But automatically generates a new question in my mind: when in this strange (for me at least) dating culture usually guys raise the question of courtship? I mean, if this particular girl likes to go on dates with different people wouldn't it scare her out if I'll raise the issue on a third date (one week from the first one)?

Asking her may  scare her, or it might not at all.  Depends on the girl.  I would approach the subject slowly and depending on what she's like.  If you don't know her well enough to know her preference, the logical step would be to get to know her better.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

, the logical step would be to get to know her better.

That's the key right here. You are in no hurry. I see it again and again that people rush into relationships (or much worse, marriage!!!) after knowing each other for a brief time period. Yes, you might know people who it works for but I know many who it doesn't and they end up on the wrong end of a nasty and sad break up or worse, a nasty and sad divorce. 

 

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Elifas said:

Thank you for answers again. It's all very logic. But automatically generates a new question in my mind: when in this strange (for me at least) dating culture usually guys raise the question of courtship? I mean, if this particular girl likes to go on dates with different people wouldn't it scare her out if I'll raise the issue on a third date (one week from the first one)?

In general, I'd usually say end of the third date is time for a define the relationship talk, but if it's only a week after the first date, I'd probably hold off another week.

Basically, you want to agree on one of three possibilities; move forward, move on, or reexamine in a few more weeks. On reexamination, skip the third option unless there are serious extenuating circumstances.

[Elifas]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

That's the key right here. You are in no hurry. I see it again and again that people rush into relationships (or much worse, marriage!!!) after knowing each other for a brief time period. Yes, you might know people who it works for but I know many who it doesn't and they end up on the wrong end of a nasty and sad break up or worse, a nasty and sad divorce. 

 

1

3

That's reasonable. In other circumstances, couple should take as much time they need to come to the next step. But, if the third party is involved doesn't it automatically turn relationship into "race"? It's the weakest point in the whole concept. Instead of thinking "Is it my person?", I must worry: "Hurry up or I'll lose the opportunity forever."

Edited November 14, 2016 by Elifas
Citation error

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Elifas said:

That's reasonable. In other circumstances, couple should take as much time they need to come to the next step. But, if the third party is involved doesn't it automatically turn relationship into "race"? It's the weakest point in the whole concept. Instead of thinking "Is it my person?", I must worry: "Hurry up or I'll lose the opportunity forever."

How is it a race?  Because a like you might date another guy and fall in love?  How is that any different from your home dating culture?

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Because a like you might date another guy and fall in love?

Huh?

[Elifas]

Sorry, I meant to say this: in "standard" relationships if you got to a point where you're "dating" it means that you got your chance. You can meet up, know each other better and decide only by yourselves when to move relationship to the next stage. If one of them thinks that maybe someone third could be better they stop dating with the first one. And cycle starts from the beginning.
In Utah-style relationships dates themselves mean nothing. My logic tells that anyone who is interested in the girl is forced to run to the point of "serious relationships". It's two extremes: 1)if finally you found out that it's not your type of person, you can stop relationship at any point before the marriage; 2)on the other side if you'll decide that you need to take time to figure out if she's the One, you can end up with the fact that some other guy with whom she goes on dates was faster in his decisions than you're.

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, Elifas said:

Sorry, I meant to say this: in "standard" relationships if you got to a point where you're "dating" it means that you got your chance. You can meet up, know each other better and decide only by yourselves when to move relationship to the next stage. If one of them thinks that maybe someone third could be better they stop dating with the first one. And cycle starts from the beginning.
In Utah-style relationships dates themselves mean nothing. My logic tells that anyone who is interested in the girl is forced to run to the point of "serious relationships". It's two extremes: 1)if finally you found out that it's not your type of person, you can stop relationship at any point before the marriage; 2)on the other side if you'll decide that you need to take time to figure out if she's the One, you can end up with the fact that some other guy with whom she goes on dates was faster in his decisions than you're.

If someone else gets to her first.... Well you might think she is the one, but she decide that you were not. 

That sucks... but remember you are not talking about a Doll that sits on a shelf waiting for you to decide if you want to "buy" them and first come first served.  You are talking about a Daughter of God here.  Fully capably of deciding what she wants in life and in a spouse.  You want one who will choose you just as much and you choose her

 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If someone else gets to her first.... Well you might think she is the one, but she decide that you were not. 

That sucks... but remember you are not talking about a Doll that sits on a shelf waiting for you to decide if you want to "buy" them and first come first served.  You are talking about a Daughter of God here.  Fully capably of deciding what she wants in life and in a spouse.  You want one who will choose you just as much and you choose her

 

Amen. 

[Elifas]

That's so true. And that's why I'm criticizing the system. It's not about taking someone's agency or right of choice. But now it looks good only if you in the upper part of the triangle: you can date several people and decide who suits you most/share more values with you. And what about people who already made this decision? Now if I wanted to be chosen by her the I way I chose her, you encourage me to bring up the matter the next time I'll see her (look at your first advices), instead of giving her the time to evaluate me.

[estradling75]

18 minutes ago, Elifas said:

That's so true. And that's why I'm criticizing the system. It's not about taking someone's agency or right of choice. But now it looks good only if you in the upper part of the triangle: you can date several people and decide who suits you most/share more values with you. And what about people who already made this decision? Now if I wanted to be chosen by her the I way I chose her, you encourage me to bring up the matter the next time I'll see her (look at your first advices), instead of giving her the time to evaluate me.

We are not telling you to ask her to make up her mind right then...  We are telling you to talk to her to find out her thoughts on dating... Did she move on like you were wondering (fearing) or if she is still willing to date you. From that you can move on

As for the culture you have three choices....  adapt and start dating several ladies... sulk... or find someone that shares your ideas about dating (which this particular sister does not)

[Jane_Doe]

 

1 hour ago, Elifas said:

In Utah-style relationships dates themselves mean nothing. My logic tells that anyone who is interested in the girl is forced to run to the point of "serious relationships". It's two extremes: 1)if finally you found out that it's not your type of person, you can stop relationship at any point before the marriage; 2)on the other side if you'll decide that you need to take time to figure out if she's the One, you can end up with the fact that some other guy with whom she goes on dates was faster in his decisions than you're.

To the contrary: dates mean a lot in UT culture.  It's how you get to know people!  It's how she's going to get to know the outer laters of your first.  If things get serious then you have more dates and she gets to know you even better. 

Also: it is typical that when/if things get serious, each person only dates the other.  People who are deeply contemplating marriage usually aren't dating multiple people.  So she's not going to be contemplating marriage proposals from 2 different guys at the same time.  

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Elifas said:

Thank you for answers again. It's all very logic. But automatically generates a new question in my mind: when in this strange (for me at least) dating culture usually guys raise the question of courtship? I mean, if this particular girl likes to go on dates with different people wouldn't it scare her out if I'll raise the issue on a third date (one week from the first one)?

Elifas,

This is not Utah specific dating.  I find it pretty common in the US in general.  Think about it.  If going on one date obligated you to something, then you'd really be reluctant to date anyone.  

It sounds as if this is strange for you.  Ok.  But that's the way it is.  Just give it time.  In fact, I'd suggest you go out and date as many women as possible just to have fun -- not expecting a relationship.

That's the thing.  Don't expect anything.  Just go have fun. 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't mean this to sound as self-righteous as it's going to sound, but . . . 

No one here thinks hand-holding implies exclusivity?  Everyone's OK with Tom holding hands with Mary on Monday, Jane on Tuesday, Sally on Wednesday, and Mary again on Thursday?

[Jane_Doe]

I don't mean this to sound as self-righteous as it's going to sound, but . . . 

No one here thinks hand-holding implies exclusivity?  Everyone's OK with Tom holding hands with Mary on Monday, Jane on Tuesday, Sally on Wednesday, and Mary again on Thursday?

It's a cultural thing.  Some people do, some don't.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[estradling75]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't mean this to sound as self-righteous as it's going to sound, but . . . 

No one here thinks hand-holding implies exclusivity?  Everyone's OK with Tom holding hands with Mary on Monday, Jane on Tuesday, Sally on Wednesday, and Mary again on Thursday?

You do realize that no one found your position objectionable enough to challenge... this is the internet... challenging others opinions happens at the slightest objection.

Of course no one expressed support either... but support is usually harder to come by.

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't mean this to sound as self-righteous as it's going to sound, but . . . 

No one here thinks hand-holding implies exclusivity?  Everyone's OK with Tom holding hands with Mary on Monday, Jane on Tuesday, Sally on Wednesday, and Mary again on Thursday?

Hand-holding?  Nope.  That's a new one on me.  I held hands with every girl I ever dated except for one feminist who... I'm not sure why she even agreed to a date.

Levels:

1) Going out with someone to do something fun -- something where it wouldn't matter if it's same sex or opposite sex.
2) Going out with the subtext of a possible romantic courtship. -- Hand-holding.
3) Going out because you both know you are romantically interested in each other. -- May get a hug here and there through the date.
4) Going out because you're serious about a committed relationship and want to explore further possbilities. -- kiss at the end of the night. EXCLUSIVE.
5) Discussing marriage/engagement.
6) Engaged.
7) Married -- duh.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Guest