Objectification Of Women

[justme15]

I am a senior at BYU. I am doing my senior research paper on how pornography is the objectification of women and how this objectification affects women in the LDS Church. I believe that the objectification of women and girls is becoming a phenomenon that will greatly affect our children and their children’s children. In the LDS Church we live by standards that help shape the rights and wrongs in our lives. We know that, for many reasons, the addiction of pornography and the selling and use of the body is wrong. We know why but we may not know how to stop this disease from spreading into our families and destroying our loved ones. Pornography is a problem and affects both the addicted and the addicted person’s loved ones. If we do not open the door to discussion and study then the problem will continue unabated. I believe that this is beginning to happen for men. In the past few years the topic of pornography has come up in General Conference talks, priesthood sessions and has been spoken of by leaders of the Church. Most of which have been directed toward men. However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet. It is true that the responsibility is on the perpetrator (in which most are men) to stay away from pornography and overcome the addiction to it. Nevertheless, there needs to be more thought and care put into how we approach and involve women on the subject. Plainly put, there needs to be more open dialogue about the subject of pornography because it is not going away. This is just a little of what I hope to accomplish with my study.

I am specifically looking for narratives, stories, experiences and feelings of LDS women who find or have found themselves in similar situations. However, all are welcome to respond.

Thank you for your time

[prisonchaplain]

I've provided a link to an article about a pastor who becomes addicted to internet porn. Although it is not LDS, the essay tackles the issue of Christian men--church leaders even--and their battle against porn.

http://www.purelifeministries.org/index.cf...mp;articleid=46

The site is Pure Life Ministries--and they even have a live-in program (patterned after faith-based drug rehabilitation programs) for men seeking deliverance from porn addiction. Might give you some interesting perspectives.

[Traveler]

From time to time I have posted that I believe very few in our modern society understand the difference between the physical world and the spheres of spiritual existence and awareness. The chains of addictions are powerful reminders of this misunderstanding. I will not pretend to be an expert with strategies to over come addictions. I am not sure they exist in the form – do this and you will be cured. With all our wisdom and science we really do not have a very good record dealing with addictions. For the most part religion has not been any more successful than our science.

I am not much for the Hollywood expressions of dark things; I think that representations of someone being possessed by a “dark” spirit are far from reality. I would submit that there is no better way to observe the advanced influences of an unclean spirit than the expressions of a true addict.

I would also submit that impressions that one can be shielded from unclean spirits by their faith in G-d or their religious ideology is a fable that gives many religious men and women false hope and devastating vulnerability.

The addiction of porn is especially devastating because few women will stand by their man giving needed support. For the most part, because we know it is wrong we do not know how to say something is wrong and then deal with it. It seems that there is an attitude that we ether admit that it is not that bad or we excommunicate everything to do with it.

I am very grateful for that light that comes from the LDS view of things:

First: Never accept anything that is wrong or unclean.

2. Love and support everyone – especially the fallen – for they need love and support more than anyone. They are indeed the one for who we should leave the 99.

3. Never accept the wrong that anyone does – but always play up and encourage the positive and the good.

4. Realize that neither the grace of G-d or individual personal efforts will by themselves save anyone and deliver them from the chains of Hell. And yes, addictions are so much like the chains of Hell; I do not believe that there are any differences worth betting a soul on.

5. Realize that addictions are only overcome as LDS doctrine teaches – you are saved by the grace of G-d AFTER all you can do. The operative word here is “AFTER”.

6. There is no silver bullet, no blessing, no quick and easy cure no program with 12 steps and you are done. Often Jesus would bless people and cure them of their ills but on a few exceptional occasions he would indicate that for some – “Their faith had made them whole”.

One last point – Any woman that will help a man through the overcoming of the addictions of porn is without doubt a Saint of G-d if there ever was one. And G-d know such a lady stand in greatness to any priesthood holder and does as much or more for the goodness of society and family – I honor and bow to such a lady as my superior.

My opinion

The Traveler

[Snow]

However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet.

Thank you for your time

Ah - women as victims, not capable of dealing with issues as individual sentient adults. They require that others give them the tools to cope. Poor things.

[Annabelli]

I am a senior at BYU. I am doing my senior research paper on how pornography is the objectification of women and how this objectification affects women in the LDS Church. I believe that the objectification of women and girls is becoming a phenomenon that will greatly affect our children and their children’s children. In the LDS Church we live by standards that help shape the rights and wrongs in our lives. We know that, for many reasons, the addiction of pornography and the selling and use of the body is wrong. We know why but we may not know how to stop this disease from spreading into our families and destroying our loved ones. Pornography is a problem and affects both the addicted and the addicted person’s loved ones. If we do not open the door to discussion and study then the problem will continue unabated. I believe that this is beginning to happen for men. In the past few years the topic of pornography has come up in General Conference talks, priesthood sessions and has been spoken of by leaders of the Church. Most of which have been directed toward men. However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet. It is true that the responsibility is on the perpetrator (in which most are men) to stay away from pornography and overcome the addiction to it. Nevertheless, there needs to be more thought and care put into how we approach and involve women on the subject. Plainly put, there needs to be more open dialogue about the subject of pornography because it is not going away. This is just a little of what I hope to accomplish with my study.

I am specifically looking for narratives, stories, experiences and feelings of LDS women who find or have found themselves in similar situations. However, all are welcome to respond.

Thank you for your time

You can watch the 1976 movie Taxi with Jodie Foster and Robert De Niro. Pulp Fiction (1994) with Uma Thurman and John Travolta is another movie that would give you some insight for your research.

You can also contact your police dept and ask for an interview with the officers who are assigned to the prostitution and pornography squad. They will answer your questions.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet.

Thank you for your time

Ah - women as victims, not capable of dealing with issues as individual sentient adults. They require that others give them the tools to cope. Poor things.

I agree with your sarcasm, Snow. It's all about the money to people who are in that industry. Women can make up their own minds about what they want to do. They are not victims, unless they are under 18.

[Gwen]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet.

Thank you for your time

Ah - women as victims, not capable of dealing with issues as individual sentient adults. They require that others give them the tools to cope. Poor things.

I agree with your sarcasm, Snow. It's all about the money to people who are in that industry. Women can make up their own minds about what they want to do. They are not victims, unless they are under 18.

i have to disagree with this sarcasm. most women in this industry might have chose it, but those that work and recruite for this industry are cunning and there are those that get sucked in and don't know how to get out; they are victims. but i think the originator of this topic was more thinking of the women who are victims from their husbands or loved ones looking at it, not the women staring in it.

having the ability to build a boat and the tools and know how to do so are very different. women have the ability, the intelegence and capacity to deal with any stress that comes into life, no matter how large; as do men. but that doesn't always mean we have the tools or the know how. if you've ever had a very difficult, emotional, situation thrown upon you in which you didn't have the imeadiate answer on how to approach it you know how frustraiting, depressing, debilitating, and numbing it can be. you end up in a place you can't get out of. the most brilliant of ppl end up sitting there helpless to do anything. if you bring ppl into the discussion BEFORE the situation arrises, give them the tools and the knowledge base then if/when it comes up they can rise above it, know how to respond and deal with the situation. you can give that information after the situation has arrived, assuming a depression hasn't set in that will prevent the ability to truely comprehend it all.

maybe if we talked about different kinds of devistating issues before we are in them there will be more supportive appropriate responses than just tucking tail and running. women aren't dealing or coping with offenses from men, they are just divorcing them and hoping to find a better one out there (true in reverse as well). in my opinion that is what makes a victim, don't deal, just run and then blame it all on the other person. whatever happend to fighting for your marriage? bring it into the open, talk about it, talk about how to overcome, understand it inside and out; then if/when the situation arrises you will know how to respond, you can respond, you can act; with firmness and compassion; with support and boundries; you can together overcome and resolve the issue........or you can play the "independant woman" victim card and divorce. i do think there are times divorce is necessary or unavoidable, it does take two to make a marriage work and to fight for it; but i think all to often it is seen as a first resort rather than a last.

[tiancum]

However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet.

Thank you for your time

We all have been given the way out of whatever trial we find ourselves in.

Many times, we choose not to use it.

Although I do not think that was your point, you were simply hoping that a more effective support system could be established to care for those who deal with this heartache.

I have seen the adverse effects of porn first hand. I can say this, it takes a long time for those affected by it to come out of it. TO realize they have a choice, to realize they are, dare I say, worth fighting for. It takes lots of angels from both sides of the veil.

No amount of sarcasm, grandstanding or pontification is going to guide a person back. All it does is make the people hurt feel like there is no hope.

Love and caring are the only way that the spirit can rest on us, so we can reach out our hand to those in need. THere are those that need us...(Not victims...victims do not need anything, because they think they are perfect already. ) Are we willing to mourn with those who mourn?

[prisonchaplain]

Most addictions are also sins. At some point the now-addict realized, "This is controlling me," and chose to continue because of the money, feelings of euphoria, etc.

What the Church must offer is neither condemnation nor consolation--but deliverance. Sinners do not need to be told, "You're not so bad," but rather, "You can be free."

[Traveler]

Most addictions are also sins. At some point the now-addict realized, "This is controlling me," and chose to continue because of the money, feelings of euphoria, etc.

What the Church must offer is neither condemnation nor consolation--but deliverance. Sinners do not need to be told, "You're not so bad," but rather, "You can be free."

In general would you say (from your experience at the prison) that Christian organizations record in dealing with freeing hard core addicts (considering long term results and repeat offences):

1. Much better (and obviously demonstrateable) than non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

2. About the same as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

3. Not as well as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

Is there a common denominator among "freed" addicts?

The Traveler

[a-train]

As far as I can remember, the LDS Church leadership has been extremely outspoken against the danger of porngraphy from the beginning. David B. Haight gave this talk in Conference back in 1984. Thomas S. Monson delivered this one back in 1979. Check out this one from 1973.

I think the message has always been the same. It is dangerous, addictive, and will only serve to crush the spirituality of any partaker. It is pure spiritual poison. The prophets have recognized it as such and warned us of as much all along.

I think the new danger is the increasing availibility of it. The internet is saturated in it. The idea is that once addicted to free pornography, a user will began purchasing it. Like free cigarettes or cocaine, it is offered only to create new customers.

I do hope that dialogue will remain open and the victims of pornography will be delivered rather than scorned. I think that for the most part the Church has always had this attitude, notwithstanding perhaps members who have not been understanding or supportive. Indeed the LORD is in the business of warning those not yet exposed and delivering those willing to be delivered.

I think the numero uno thing we can do individually is that which we have been counseled to do by the brethren: keep ourselves away from pornography and teach our children also to do so. This means we have to let our children know it is out there and that it will poison them if they partake of it.

-a-train

[justme15]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

However, women have not been given the necessary tools to deal with both their feelings and the anguish that occur within themselves nor do they know how to help or support their loved ones who are addicted. Simply put, women have not been invited into the conversation yet.

Thank you for your time

Ah - women as victims, not capable of dealing with issues as individual sentient adults. They require that others give them the tools to cope. Poor things.

I agree with your sarcasm, Snow. It's all about the money to people who are in that industry. Women can make up their own minds about what they want to do. They are not victims, unless they are under 18.

i have to disagree with this sarcasm. most women in this industry might have chose it, but those that work and recruite for this industry are cunning and there are those that get sucked in and don't know how to get out; they are victims. but i think the originator of this topic was more thinking of the women who are victims from their husbands or loved ones looking at it, not the women staring in it.

having the ability to build a boat and the tools and know how to do so are very different. women have the ability, the intelegence and capacity to deal with any stress that comes into life, no matter how large; as do men. but that doesn't always mean we have the tools or the know how. if you've ever had a very difficult, emotional, situation thrown upon you in which you didn't have the imeadiate answer on how to approach it you know how frustraiting, depressing, debilitating, and numbing it can be. you end up in a place you can't get out of. the most brilliant of ppl end up sitting there helpless to do anything. if you bring ppl into the discussion BEFORE the situation arrises, give them the tools and the knowledge base then if/when it comes up they can rise above it, know how to respond and deal with the situation. you can give that information after the situation has arrived, assuming a depression hasn't set in that will prevent the ability to truely comprehend it all.

maybe if we talked about different kinds of devistating issues before we are in them there will be more supportive appropriate responses than just tucking tail and running. women aren't dealing or coping with offenses from men, they are just divorcing them and hoping to find a better one out there (true in reverse as well). in my opinion that is what makes a victim, don't deal, just run and then blame it all on the other person. whatever happend to fighting for your marriage? bring it into the open, talk about it, talk about how to overcome, understand it inside and out; then if/when the situation arrises you will know how to respond, you can respond, you can act; with firmness and compassion; with support and boundries; you can together overcome and resolve the issue........or you can play the "independant woman" victim card and divorce. i do think there are times divorce is necessary or unavoidable, it does take two to make a marriage work and to fight for it; but i think all to often it is seen as a first resort rather than a last.

I appreciate your insight ALmom. I to believe that there needs to be more communication about these types of issues. It is a problem that is devastating members of the church. The issue is not that the church has kept quiet but has not said enough. Plain stay away does not work for everybody. I am a convert to the church and know firsthand what it is like to be confronted with the no pornography card. Not everyone is raised in a family that holds the highest church standards and values. This is why there needs to be more dialouge between men, women and the authorities of the church. We must all do it together.

[prisonchaplain]

[in general would you say (from your experience at the prison) that Christian organizations record in dealing with freeing hard core addicts (considering long term results and repeat offences):

1. Much better (and obviously demonstrateable) than non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

2. About the same as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

3. Not as well as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations

Is there a common denominator among "freed" addicts?

The Traveler

Teen Challenge has been recognized by the government for its faith-based drug rehabilitation program. Some local and state judicial systems even allow those face drug charges to opt for such a program in lieu of prison, on occasion.

What I have heard is that 30-day medical/psychological rehabs are about 15% effective. Teen Challenge runs from 75% - 85% effective for men, and some female homes see a 95% success rate.

In fairness, we are comparing apples and oranges. 30-day programs aim to detoxify the body and arm the addict with rudimentary knowledge about drugs and their effects. Teen Challenge, which is a 12-month live-in program, addresses spiritual, social, and even jobs skill areas of life. It is far more comprehensive. Also, the students are usually ready for true deliverance, if they are willing to undertake such a program.

Also, bias alert--I've had a loved one graduate from Teen Challenge. More than five years free now from crack cocaine addiction that was so bad, when he first approached the program it was "life or death." He not only got off drugs, but is now a committed church member and tither.

[a-train]

What exactly is not being discussed that needs dialogue? Where are we coming short?

-a-train

[justme15]

What exactly is not being discussed that needs dialogue? Where are we coming short?

-a-train

I dont believe that there is a safe place for people to come out and work on their addictions. The church has said things about it but that is why I want understand the womens view. The church talks about pornography and how it is bad and how we need to stay away from it. Most of these talks are focused on the men of the church. However, I believe that there are two "victims" in the addiction of pornography. My I use the word victim to describe a person who is caught up in the affects of pornography. The victims are the addicted (which are mainly male) and the wife. How is the wife afflicted? That is why there needs to be more dialogue. Every side needs to be heard in order for there to be true healing.

[a-train]

So, you mean you'd like to see some sort of support group or something where victims can go?

-a-train

[BenRaines]

I made a post earlier, the second one, and don't know where it went.

For at least the last three years our stake has been using a program, provided by the church, that is a 12 step program for pornography addiction similar to the AA 12 step program.

The moderator of the program is a woman who is a licensed family therapist. She and her husband, who most recently served on our stake high council host these weekly meetings. Those who have problems with pornography addiction are invited to attend. Most come from other stakes to attend ours and those from our stake attend at other stakes.

As A-Train has said I don't know how much more the church can talk about it. We hear about it at General Conference, at Priesthood session, at Stake Conference and also in own ward.

I undestand from talking with a few Bishops in our stake that is also a problem among sisters in the church too. More than ever seen before.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

Just some thoughts on how churches can help addicts find deliverance: Celebrate those recovering--even at the Ward level. Offer subsidized live-in programs that combine group discussion, religious training, instruction and practice in prayer, meditation, personal Scripture study, along with a work program, that allows the "students" to partially support the program. My Church has such a program, and I have heard of a Buddhist one. Most religions could adapt such an approach to their traditions.

A key, though, is that when a student graduates, will the local ward welcome them, celebrate their success, and put them to use in Kingdom labor?

[justme15]

I made a post earlier, the second one, and don't know where it went.

For at least the last three years our stake has been using a program, provided by the church, that is a 12 step program for pornography addiction similar to the AA 12 step program.

The moderator of the program is a woman who is a licensed family therapist. She and her husband, who most recently served on our stake high council host these weekly meetings. Those who have problems with pornography addiction are invited to attend. Most come from other stakes to attend ours and those from our stake attend at other stakes.

As A-Train has said I don't know how much more the church can talk about it. We hear about it at General Conference, at Priesthood session, at Stake Conference and also in own ward.

I undestand from talking with a few Bishops in our stake that is also a problem among sisters in the church too. More than ever seen before.

Ben Raines

Plainly put I want to know what women have to say on the subject. We need to hear what they are going through. I know there 12 step programs and groups to support the addicted. But we do not hear anything about what is happening to the loved ones of the addicted, specifically the women that are married to the addict. Through my experience they dont know what to do when confronted with this problem. They are affected emotionally, spiritually and in other ways. I dont know exactly but that is why their voice needs to be heard. When all sides are understood then the church will be able to help and that is when they can say more. Right now the talking is one sided. The women need to be heard and understood.

[a-train]

PC,

The Church is quick to put people to work and include them in everything. When a person has come through some affliction such as pornography addiction, once they have been pronounced clean, they are thought of as such.

However, I think those addicted especially to pornography are not apt to being public about it, even after overcoming it.

There is something else to be aware of. In the LDS Church, sharing past transgressions is discouraged in many areas, especially Church meetings. I think part of the reason is that there can exist a mindset that says: 'Well, so and so did it and repented, why can't I?' Indeed it would not be out of order to say that through repentance one has come closer to the LORD and gained His Spirit, but we are to refrain from getting into the details of past transgressions. Further, confessions are not to take place in sacrament meetings.

However, family members, home teachers, and various Church leaders and friends will be involved in supporting and celebrating the work of one who is overcoming some pattern of transgression, this is simply done less publicly.

As far as a more institutionalized approach such as a boarding-house goes, I think such activity is fantastic, but might be a little too peripheral to the mission of the Church to get as much time and attention. However, such activity has and does get done.

Of course, I think the focus of the Church is on prevention. The problem is that so many fail to take part in the prevention. Such a large number of members are not taking advantage of what the Church is offering in the first place and this is where the trouble really begins.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

A-train (and all others); Perhaps what has skewed this string a bit is the emphasis (or perceived emphasis) of the question: WHAT is the Church doing? Some may see negligence being implied.

A healthier question might be WHAT ELSE oculd the Church do? It's not that anyone has failed in their duties, but rather that the problem is wide-spread, and even greater efforts and creativity may be called for.

BTW, it is certainly true that former porn addicts would be far more reticent to "testify" to their deliverance in a public meeting than former drug addicts.

Also, at this time, our best medical and psychological experts tell us that churches must assume that there is no permanent recovery from the molestation of minors. Constant and permanent accountability is necessary in such cases.

[Elphaba]

I don’t believe that there is a safe place for people to come out and work on their addictions. The church has said things about it but that is why I want understand the women’s view. The church talks about pornography and how it is bad and how we need to stay away from it. Most of these talks are focused on the men of the church. However, I believe that there are two "victims" in the addiction of pornography. My I use the word victim to describe a person who is caught up in the affects of pornography. The victims are the addicted (which are mainly male) and the wife. How is the wife afflicted? That is why there needs to be more dialogue. Every side needs to be heard in order for there to be true healing.

With the exception of Al Mom's post all of you are not really reading just me’s posts and hearing what he is really saying. Rather, you're focusing on the porn addict and the Church's current programs that address his/her addiction. ( I'm going to refer to the addict as "he." I recognize the women can also be the addict.) That has nothing to do with what justme is talking about.

Addiction is a family disease. Typically it starts out in the following manner: 1) the addict admits he needs help and decides to seek treatment; 2) he diligently involves himself in said treatment; 3) the wife and children are so relieved they resume normal activities putting all previous fears and traumas behind them because they know daddy is going to be "cured" this time; 4) that magical day comes when father is "cured," repents, and all is forgiven; and 5) Daddy becomes the model LDS, almost to excess, and the family becomes one of the ward's elite, their trial over with all ramifications loved and repented away forever.

In the addict's world, this is called the "pink elephant" phase. Chances are, with the programs the father has been through he probably is aware of this and knows it's normal to let it happen, that it will end, and that's when his addiction will come back and take hold of him twice as hard. He knows that's when he'll really need almost 24 hour support to get him through.

Unfortunately, his wife knows nothing about the "pink elephant" phase. She thinks this is all real, and that this is the way it will be forever. Her husband, because of his love for his family, and with the help of God, is cured, and that porn is out of their lives forever. Because no one has included the women in any the programs the Priesthood hears on a regular basis, she is in for a devastating blow when the 'pink elephant" stage disappears and his addiction comes roaring back.

This is the sort of story justme is looking for. He is not looking for the addict's experiences. He is looking for the spouse's experiences, which are usually, though not always, the wives’ stories. Theirs are also full of trauma, and to blithely dismiss their pain, which is exacerbated by people who think they should just buck up and quit being a victim, isolates them further from getting the help they need and to learn how to properly support her husband without enabling his addiction

Because addiction is a family disease. While the addict is the culpable one, and has made the choice to look at the porn, the wife has enabled him somehow. She needs to learn how she has done this , and how to stop doing it

She also needs to learn how to take care of herself and her children, and to let go of her husband to stop enabling him and his addiction.

But without help in learning these skills, she is going to continue to act the same, which will keep the family unit doing the same "dance," and most like the addict will return to his addiction

I am NOT blaming her. She does not know what she is doing and is not doing it on purpose. But it's very real.

Hold up a baby's mobile, take one of the figures and move it strongly. This represents a spouse who stops enabling her husband's porn addiction. Her behavior changes dramatically, When she changes, all of the other mobile pieces start moving and going a bit crazy themselves. But they are doing so on their own, not because of her. And that's the way it's supposed to be. In order to find balance themselves, they must find their own equilibrium this time, not rely on her to give it to them.

So, justme's not looking for the Priesthood's efforts to deal with the men's addiction to porn, and I'm a little discouraged how the posts keep returning to that.

Rather, he's addressing a huge gap in the family's healing process, and that is the rest of the famlies need for support, and most of all education, during this frightening and unsettling time.

And I believe it was Shan who mentioned how these programs are out to take the money of these people. I couldn’t agree more. I would never recommend going through "treatment" in a hospital setting or through one of these "outpatient" businesses that focus on addiction and recovery. They are assembly line, 12-step programs that push you through whether you're ready to progress or not. They're despicable, and capable of doing more harm than good. You can get help through an anonymous meeting than one of these

Also, on a personal note, I don't believe 12-step programs are the only effective way to deal with addictions. Statistically they are only about six percent effectively. Of course, my opposition to them is because they rely so heavily on a "higher power," which in reality ends up being, in the majority of meetings, Christ. But I suspect most of you on this board would not have that program, and therefore would not be bothered by that.

However, the Al-Anon program, which is the spouse's support groups, are very effective. The teach the spouse had to disengage from the addicts disease, not to enable him/her and to take care of themselves and his/her family. That does not mean they don't support their spouse--they do. But they learn how to do it in healthy ways, not dysfunctional ways. I would recommend it to anyone dealing with the ravages of any spousal addiction.

Programs in the Relief Society, similar to those taught in the PH meetings would be an ideal place to begin to education the women about family dynamics of addiction, signs to look for in addiction, where support is available (Al-Anon, church support), etc. I think even adult Institute and perhaps Enrichment courses could address it as well.

Church officials who design the programs regarding addiction would do well if they stopped treating the women with kid gloves as if this issue is too sordid for them. These women need to protect their families every bit as much as the husband does. They're entitled to the same information, and not providing it is treating them like a child.

Justme is focusing on the women, not the PH holders, and I think that's an admirable pursuit. If you can allow yourself to open up to any possibilities, that would be wonderful. Just remember, addiction is a family disease.

If you got this far, thank you so much for riding my "book,"

Elphaba

[a-train]

I'm not a woman and they never told me about the 'pink elephant' stage either.

-a-train

[mouse152]

justme

There is a great website: heart-t-heart.org. They are a non-church sponsored LDS 12 step program. They have a forum specifically for the spouses of sex addicts. You may find their posts to be informative.

mouse

[Elphaba]

I'm not a woman and they never told me about the 'pink elephant' stage either.

I am either a much less competent writer than I perceive myself to be, or you, and others like you just refuse to read my posts.

What I wrote is: In the addict's world, this is called the "pink elephant" phase. Chances are, with the programs the father has been through he probably is aware of this and knows it's normal to let it happen,. . . ."

What that meant is that once he's in a treatment program he will learn about the "pink elephant stage," not while he's in PH meetings. I can see how you may have confused that with the Priesthood programs. But so what?

Again, the issue is about the women involved in these situations. Why are you and others so intent in picking apart these posts looking for one little thing to counter and divert the discussion from the real issue? No one's chastising you or saying this your fault. No one's saying you've done anything wrong.

Justme is doing an admirable thing. He's taking the treatment of addiction from just the husband into the whole family where it belongs. Why are you so resistant to this that you have to nitpick about something so silly?

Elphaba