Non-member Mother and Motivation to Continue On

[zil]

It sounds to me like you've got good plans and an understanding of where you are and what's been going on, and of the risks and challenges.  To me, that's a recipe for making progress.   I'm so sorry you have these struggles and pray for the best for you as you navigate the months until you can move to Idaho.

[Guest]

@a mustard seed, I think it says a great deal about you that you want to be independent and healthy. Really, not even being out of the dysfunctional environment and still recognizing that is awesome. I think you'll land on your feet and do just great.  

[eddified]

“Real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontation—not acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.”
Russell M. Nelson

“We cannot, my dear brethren, condition our love…There have to be standards and they must be enforced, but our love must be unconditional.”
Marion D. Hanks

[a mustard seed]

5 hours ago, eddified said:

“Real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontation—not acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.”
Russell M. Nelson

“We cannot, my dear brethren, condition our love…There have to be standards and they must be enforced, but our love must be unconditional.”
Marion D. Hanks

It's the truth and I thank you for posting this encouragement. Off site I've been counseled about how Jesus himself accepted others but told them to sin no more. He wasn't just accepting of them while they were sinning.

I have gone through a rollercoaster of emotions the past month.  In my sorrow, I wished to be free from the pain of having to depend on her, of hoping things would get better someday and constantly being disappointed. It's heartwrenching to have her come home one day and tell me how I should read the Screwtape Letters because it has great insight into how Satan can get to us. And I think, "There's some clarity and an acknowledgement of the need for a clear cut desire for Christ otherwise the adversary has a way in. Is she thinking about things? Does she want to be better?" And then she brings me home food and pays me way extra money for a commission and I think, "She is helping me to save money so that I can have a good start when I get out to Idaho. <3 " ...Only for her to inform me on Thursday that she is leaving the next day for a friends(drinking) in Pittsburgh for the weekend. And then to find out Sunday that she isn't in Pittsburgh but in Idaho visiting a guy and won't be back until Wednesday. And then to find out on Monday when the kids come back from their dad's, we don't have enough food in the house...but I have all this extra money with which to buy it, even though nobody asked me, nobody designated THIS money for that, this was payment to me for work given to her. So, then I start to question was I being manipulated the whole time? Am I stupid in her eyes? Is that why she lies? I confront her about the lie and even though Thursday it was still Pittsburgh in our discussion and she left early Friday morning on a plane, I am questioned, "What? I can't change my mind about where I take my vacation?" And I feel powerless to call her on the truth because of all the cards she holds and how ungrateful I will be to say anything contrary. So, in that circumstances wishing to just be released from the game is understandable.

But she is someone I love so very much. Even through all of the ups and downs. And I acknowledge that as a golden child, I probably do have a lot of narcissism myself. Sometimes when people text me or ask me about my day, I tell them and then as an afterthought, hastily ask them how theirs is. Or sometimes my relatives who I love and am very close to will talk about how they wished my family would come over for holiday suppers and I erroneously think they only meant me before being gently corrected/reminded. I am spoiled. I have, through desires of my own heart, put myself in a situation where it is hard now to extricate myself because it was easy and nothing was expected of me. So long as I watched the kids, I could stay home, do my art thing, and watch TV all day, read all day, or nap all day and have food and a phone. No responsibilities. No debt. So, it feels like I am manipulative in my own right because I will not allow her to know anything is amiss until I no longer need her for phone and internet access(she already doesn't give me rides to church or anything anymore) because it is easier for me. I stand by, waving, watching her do these reckless, immoral things, as she runs off a cliff in flames because it makes getting out of here easier for me.

I keep saying how when I'm free, when I'm out west and have cut the last string from her, THEN I will start setting boundaries and having honest discussions with her. Maybe the discussion will finally be able to be honest when I start accruing these responsibilities, these stresses, and realize how much of a whiny brat I have been at this point in my life. I don't think it is healthy for me to move forward without acknowledging my responsibility in this situation and I thank everyone for the discussions and this thread for helping me become more aware of things.

[zil]

19 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

So, then I start to question was I being manipulated the whole time?

Sure sounds like it.

22 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

I am spoiled. I have, through desires of my own heart, put myself in a situation where it is hard now to extricate myself because it was easy and nothing was expected of me. So long as I watched the kids, I could stay home, do my art thing, and watch TV all day, read all day, or nap all day and have food and a phone. No responsibilities. No debt.

And it sounds like you're recognizing it's time to become a full-blown, self-reliant adult.

I would only caution that you don't have to do that all at once.  Sometimes we try too much and fall on our faces and don't want to get back up.  Do what you can, and don't sabotage your start by doing something that could backfire and keep you from leaving.

[a mustard seed]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Sure sounds like it.

And it sounds like you're recognizing it's time to become a full-blown, self-reliant adult.

I would only caution that you don't have to do that all at once.  Sometimes we try too much and fall on our faces and don't want to get back up.  Do what you can, and don't sabotage your start by doing something that could backfire and keep you from leaving.

No doubt. <3 First, just focusing on the school thing and the driving thing. In fact tomorrow I go to take the permit test at the DMV. I've been studying and taking practice tests since last Friday. That's mostly the growth stuff I'm focusing on. The rest is just trying to keep up with my calling, prepping for girls camp(I get to be a leader helping the first years), and last minute commissions from folks around here that I can do from home to save up money. So, it is coming along slow and steady with a daily to-do list.

[Strongerie]

On 4/6/2017 at 6:48 AM, Jane_Doe said:

*Warning: incoming bluntness*

"Selfish"?  @a mustard seed, taking care of yourself is in NO way selfish!  Living your life is in NO way selfish!  There isn't a single thing in this or any other post you've made that can be accurately described as "selfish".  You need to feed yourself: physically, spiritually, emotionally financially, etc.  That is NOT selfish, but being a disciple of Christ and a good steward over your life.  You are NOT your mother's keeper and you need to get to a place where you can healthily feed yourself.  You both are grown women and she does not require you to be around and enable her sins.  As to the kids... they're going to need help not just today, but the tomorrow a decade from now too.  Right now you're not much in a position to help yourself, much less them.  You need to get in a strong safe place first, and then you can reach out and help pull them up.  

 

I couldn't agree more. This advice is on point.

[eddified]

Sounds like your mom is a master manipulator. My mom is like that too. When I left home I wanted to get far, far away from her, because no one likes being manipulated. 

[zil]

Just now, eddified said:

... no one likes being manipulated. 

Click "Like this" if you agree.

[zil]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Click "Like this" if you agree.

Man, I sure hope you all are clicking "like" because you're amused by my mocking of facebook, and not because you were manipulated into liking my post as a means of agreeing that people don't like being manipulated....

Edited April 27, 2017 by zil

[Sunday21]

On 2017-04-27 at 0:03 PM, zil said:

Man, I sure hope you all are clicking "like" because you're amused by my mocking of facebook, and not because you were manipulated into liking my post as a means of agreeing that people don't like being manipulated....

We just love you! ❤️

[a mustard seed]

Quick update: Countdown for the move: 5 weeks left! I cannot wait! Now, I haven't been accepted to BYU-I yet but my application was submitted and finished over a week ago. Plus, this is the time of the year when a lot of high school graduates will be flooding their desks with applications as well, so, I might not hear back until just before I move. That's okay! I am patient! Everything I hear from cousins who have gone to BYU-I it sounds like a dream and the perfect place for me to learn and grow. Like, not just access to opportunities and challenges but sort of insulated by church culture so that amidst these new challenges, I will have support in the church and I can reach out to spiritually uplifting things in my stress or anxiety.

I've also been practice driving for a little over 3 weeks, at least once a day driving to the nearest town which is about half an hour away. I have not been on the freeway and have not been in cities or towns, however, I am pretty comfortable with speed(whereas before going above 30 terrified me; now, I find when going from 45 to a 25 area, like closer to town, I actually get anxious because it feels like I'm dragging or going too slow and I worry about drivers behind me thinking I'm too slow; it takes me a minute to realize, EVERYONE is now supposed to be going 25). The only thing, and it doesn't help much that every time I practice I'm changing vehicles. Out of 23 days, I have driven 6 different vehicles of the people willing to help me practice, but anyway, the only thing I have trouble with is transitions like the myriad curves and hills of NE PA, I either don't slow down enough or practically almost stop before going around curves or I don't progress smoothly with speed going up hills because some vehicles, I push the pedal to the floor and it just crawls to climb it, while others "VRROOOOOOOOOOOOM!" up the hill when you do that. And parking I'm about 50/50 ok at. So, there's plenty of practicing to do but I am leaps and bounds from where I started: my uncle had me behind the wheel in the first week of May and I had panicked breathing like a woman in labor, just going 30 on a road with no other vehicles on it.

My relationship with my mother is the same. She has started trying to bond with my 17 year old sister, I assume to make me jealous but in fact, lol, I couldn't be more happier. Yes! Please! Pay attention to your emotionally stunted daughter who needs you! That's part of the delight of having kept silent about my complaints; she, in her pettiness, will often attempt to harm but actually ends up making me very happy. There's still occasional tension but, I guess the driving has done more than made me able to handle a large vehicle on the road, it has boosted my confidence and optimism as well. I feel unaffected by her and unconcerned with her. Small things she does which would have sent me here to agonize over "Can I last the whole last month of existing in the same house as her???" actually barely register as "MY" problem anymore. Even when she has been inconsiderate to me or depends on me to mother her children, I find myself less focused on it anymore.

I read a letter that my sister got from her school counselor addressed to my mom, wherein my little sister has expressed a revulsion in regards to learning to drive herself or getting a job after high school. In fact, the letter states that she has no concept nor interest in exploring a life of ever moving out of my mothers house. A few days ago, we brought up her getting her learner's permit and she said "no" and my mom enabled this openly by stating how she never got her license until she was older(at 19), the same attitude she handled me with(which, at 29, going to be 30 this summer, this is the farthest I have ever gotten in progress with driving). It almost became an argument when my mother seemed dedicated to someone needing to be ready and wanting to drive before they get their license because "you would have been really angry had I forced you to get it at her age". Um, yeah, maybe for a day or a week, but do you know what driving could have done for my self-worth and confidence if I had been forced to learn earlier? I could have avoided years of sluggishness and apathy and depression about my life. I could have had independence! I left it there and I only bring these things up to state my plans and desire to, once I am settled and situated with a firm foundation in Idaho, to come back for my sister and bring her out there. I'LL force her to learn to drive, I'LL push her to get a job, and I'LL make sure that she can have opportunities that I wish I'd had. I'LL be the mother she should have had because I worry, with no thoughts of growth or her own successes, my 17 year old sister will eventually reach the same point I did, 4 years ago, where I felt disconnected and hopeless. I never want that for her and I'd rather she hate me for a little bit, as I force her to do things, than her to ever feel worthless because she's never done anything and can't muster the motivation TO do anything, so that being dead looks the same as her current state of living.

Anyway, that's the update. I'll let you all know when/if I get in and what the plans are then. Thank you so much for the prayers and the helpful advice. I feel like I have been picked up out of the muddy trench, like a child held under the armpits and I am so grateful to feel free and clear of mind and spirit.

[Jane_Doe]

Yeah!!!

 

As to your sister: she is not a repeat of your experience.  1) because she's not you, 2) because she'll have a capable and mature sister to help her out.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[zil]

5 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

I find when going from 45 to a 25 area, like closer to town, I actually get anxious because it feels like I'm dragging or going too slow and I worry about drivers behind me thinking I'm too slow

If you're doing the speed limit (or over) any other driver's opinion of your speed is their problem - forget about it.  If they don't like it, they can get the politicians to change the speed limit.

Different vehicles is good.  Don't be afraid to take a few minutes to adjust everything and just sit noting where the various controls are.  Time is the secret to everything. Learning to manually manage speed is good, but once you've got it down, cruise control is your friend - even off the freeway.  Once you get up to the limit, unless you're going to be changing speed every 2 minutes, setting cruise control is an easy way to let your brain focus on other driving tasks.  Your only speed worries are whether to put on the brakes or stomp on the accelerator.

11 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

I feel unaffected by her and unconcerned with her. Small things she does which would have sent me here to agonize over "Can I last the whole last month of existing in the same house as her???" actually barely register as "MY" problem anymore. Even when she has been inconsiderate to me or depends on me to mother her children, I find myself less focused on it anymore.

IMO, this is very good.  It shows a proper perspective and recognition that you control you, and you can't control others.

I think the best thing you can do for your sister is be happy, and as the opportunity presents itself and you think it appropriate, talk about the things which make you happy - the independence of being able to get yourself somewhere (she'll want that eventually), the peace of the gospel and knowing you're doing the right thing, pursuing interests with passion, etc.  I think that and encouragement (as in: you can do this too) will help.  She probably lacks confidence (in herself and in reality, since the reality she knows doesn't seem to offer freedom and opportunity).

[Guest]

Thanks for the update. I've been thinking about you.

[Sunday21]

I really hope you get accepted! 

[seashmore]

I know I'm late to the topic, but was drawn in by the title. My mom sounds a bit like yours, though not nearly as extreme in her manipulation. Physically distancing myself from her did at 21 me a lot of good, even though I felt terrible about leaving my sisters behind. Eventually, my sister (2 years younger, psychologically troubled, and into much carousing at the time) recognized how much satisfaction I was experiencing in life. She wanted to change, and talk began about her moving in with me. To which my mother said to me, "Good. Then you can take care of her." 

My point is, I had to put my oxygen mask on before I could help my sister get hers on, and I don't even think my mom has realized she needs one. I'm glad you're making such progress and hope that someday your siblings will appreciate your influence, even though it may be from a distance.

*hugs*

[a mustard seed]

Thank you so much @seashmore. I think thats one thing that has been the most helpful in all of this is realizing I am not alone. Before i made this thread I was convinced that this is either not as bad as i felt or this was my responsibility and somehow trying to hold her accountable was ME shirking my duties. Not only talking to people here but also reading about other people who have gone through something similar it helps me realize this problem is valid. It also gives me hope that my plans to help my siblings by first strengthening my own foundation has hope and a good outcome at the end of it. So thank you. <3

[a mustard seed]

Guess where I am! Finally, Friday night we completed our drive across the country and now I'm in Rexburg, Idaho. If anybody else lives here, please hit me up via PM and we can get together! I'd love to meet my fellow Hubbers.

That being said, things did not end on a high note between mother and I. The 17th I was at the branch going away party for myself and my aunt and uncle's family and I get a text from my mother to call her. So, I do and she is clearly drunk, not only evidenced by the fact that she repeated 4 times the same thing but also because my younger brother graduated earlier that day and she had to go to his graduation alone, so, I know that drinking is how she copes. I hung up on her after the fourth reiteration of her message, something simple and stupid, and she all of a sudden sends me a message of emotional diarrhea. Now, I have been careful, to keep the peace until I was able to go, to not even hint or confront her about anything. I act friendly and nice and I don't ask her about her crap and I don't say anything about it when I hear she's doing something foolish or toxic. I knew that if I got into a discussion with her, she would manipulate and overpower me until I'd be forced to apologize for her being the unstable one. I just wanted to get away and worry about everything else once I've got my stuff figured out.

So I was confused by her message asserting that I judge her, that we're not friends because I hate her and expect her to be Jesus, and bringing up how much she has suffered and what a great mother she was for my siblings when they were little(like, 10-12 years ago). I told her yeah, we're not friends because she lies to me about everything(I'm mentally including omissions of truth, you know, when she was dating her boyfriend for 3 years and I only find out months after they broke up that he did a little meth on the side). I told her I demanded honesty from her, called her a drunky(I know, bad move), and I told her to stop living in the past(all the stuff that she did that was great and all the stuff she had to suffer through; what about now???). She denied drinking and then that was that. She was being churlish to me and snooty when I got home, so, I packed my stuff and moved out while she was at work.

There was a little discussion just before the move where she demanded an itinerary of all her "lies" while telling me my covert moving out was so wrong and not what you do to a person, and she tried to lure me in with gifts that she had gotten for me as a going away present. I told her I wasn't going to play and to keep the gifts because I had enough as it was packed up.

I'm not feeling unstable in my convictions. I actually feel a little liberated being able to confront her and finally be open and honest about how I feel. I do not know how to proceed from this point. Here I am in Idaho and I want to send letters to my people back home. I thought about including her in my letter writing but I don't know how to approach that at all. She has some sort of sickness, something happened to her, or she's addicted to something; something is not normal, because I get all sorts of "addiction" red flags from her. I am worried that once my brother goes on his mission, the house will be devoid of strong spiritual influence. I originally wanted to send her letters telling her about things happening and always including a spiritual thought or my testimony or something, keeping things clean of the "drama" while still trying to get through to her in some way, or allowing the spirit to do so. But I don't want to get caught in this trap where I am lying again just to placate her. She's wrong. She needs help. Like, it'd be different if she were a good person and just sinning. Fine, whatever. But she's leaving every weekend to visit rich friends across the country, she drinks and drives, she doesn't have any clear sense of perspective or priority, and she has sex with whomever she pleases, all the time. She's a woman in pain. I'm tired of walking on eggshells and giving in to her contradictions. Like, "We can't ask her about anything because we're being snoopy and judgement and yet when we don't ask, 'nobody cares about her.'" I know how to define my care and love for her and it is calling her on her delusions and telling her to stop it when I see her walking towards a cliff. Even if she defies me or walks off to spite me, I can rest assured I stayed true to myself and my love for her, rather than not doing anything or playing along as she walks off the cliff on her own.

I'm not going to save her, I know. She needs to be honest with herself and want to change. I just don't know how to keep my relationship with her without compromising on my desire to love her the way she needs to be loved: toughly. The third option is...no letters for her, but then that might feed into her martyr complex even more. Any suggestions are welcome.

[Sunday21]

@a mustard seed! Wishing you all the best! I confess that I am not sure what to do in your situation. Big hugs! 

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

I'm not going to save her, I know. She needs to be honest with herself and want to change. I just don't know how to keep my relationship with her without compromising on my desire to love her the way she needs to be loved: toughly. The third option is...no letters for her, but then that might feed into her martyr complex even more. Any suggestions are welcome.

Honestly, it sounds like you both need a breather.  Give her a month or sometime, then maybe write her a snail mail letter of surface polite things.  

[a mustard seed]

18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Honestly, it sounds like you both need a breather.  Give her a month or sometime, then maybe write her a snail mail letter of surface polite things.  

I can accept that as an answer. I just worry. Because while I was married to my husband, she and I were estranged for the longest time. I told my husband not to call her when I went to the hospital for my attempted suicide but he did anyway. That was what broke the silence between us and I clung to her heavily after my divorce. I just don't want the silence to stretch that long between us. In the end, though, I know you're probably right, some cool off time will probably be beneficial.

[Jane_Doe]

10 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

I can accept that as an answer. I just worry. Because while I was married to my husband, she and I were estranged for the longest time. I told my husband not to call her when I went to the hospital for my attempted suicide but he did anyway. That was what broke the silence between us and I clung to her heavily after my divorce. I just don't want the silence to stretch that long between us. In the end, though, I know you're probably right, some cool off time will probably be beneficial.

I understand the concern.  So often we struggle to find the balance, especially when growing-up-and-moving-out is involved.  It's come.  And it doesn't have to be the same forever: sometime there will be season where you talk more often, some less.  That's part of life.