Tithing - What to say and NOT to say

[skalenfehl]

D&C 119:4 is the fulcrum of the subject, but often ignored are the preceding verses. 

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1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Then the subsequent verse:

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5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

The Lord intended to redeem His people. A Zion people is required. Once a member consecrated his surplus property, this was only the beginning of the tithing of God's Zion people. We don't do that anymore. And we don't even understand "interest annually" either. 

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Current LDS leaders say interest is typically interpreted as "income." But that's not what it has always meant.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time...http://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing

"A standing law unto them forever." 

The term forever is pretty clear to me. We covenant to obey the law of consecration in the temple, but we are not provided means to do so. In order to be a redeemed people, we must be a Zion people. This requires us to have NO poor among us. If we cannot make ourselves equal in temporal things, the Lord will not make us equal in heavenly things and so we must learn to care for the poor and that is what the tithing of the Lord's people is intended to do. 

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The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

Quote

Covenant of Tithing

On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the
continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children’s children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands. (March 29, 1834.) DHC
2:174-175.

(Signed) 
JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.,
OLIVER COWDERY.
TotPJS page 70

Joseph Smith understood the purpose of tithing as did Abraham of old:

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JST Genesis 14:36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

Abraham gave his surplus property as the beginning of his tithe, just as we read is God's standing law forever in D&C 119. And because Abraham did what God required (no more, no less, but precisely), God blessed Abraham with riches, honor, etc, which was God's covenant to him. When we learn to obey God the way God prescribes, He blesses us. But not if we improvise. It doesn't work that way. Cain thought he could do it with his offering, but God refused it because it was not the way God prescribed. It isn't about receiving gross blessings or net blessings. It's about elevating the poor by consecrating our property and making ourselves equal in temporal things so that God can make us equal in heavenly things. 

Some interesting quotes:

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When the revelation which I have read was given in 1838, I was present, and recollect the feelings of the brethren. A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had, with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.” - Brigham Young (JD, 2:306)

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I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop" Let us consider for a moment this word 'surplus.' What does it mean when applied to a man and his property? Surplus cannot mean that which is indispensably necessary for any given purpose, but what remains after supplying what is needed for that purpose. Is not the first and most necessary use of a man's property that he feed, clothe and provide a home for himself and family! . . . Was not 'surplus property,' that which was over and above a comfortable and necessary substance? In the light of what had transpired and of subsequent events, what else could it mean? Can we take any other view of it when we consider the circumstances under which it was given in far west, in July, 1838? I have been unable in studying this subject to find any other definition of the term 'surplus,' as used in this revelation, than the one I have just given. I find that it was so understood and recorded by the Bishops and people in those days, as well as by the prophet Joseph himself, who was unquestionably the ablest and best exponent of this revelation. - Franklin D. Richards, Nov. 6, 1882. JD 23:313.

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Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837
My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball],

....We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.

There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by skalenfehl
typos

[NeuroTypical]

I knew a random survivalist nut a while ago.  He had an interesting approach to tithing.  He'd convert everything he made into US gold eagles.  These:

That coin is worth around $1400 at current gold prices.  But see how on the tails side, it says "Twenty Dollars"?   

So, he made $80,000 in a year, he'd convert it into 57 gold double-eagles.  Each one worth twenty bucks - just look at the coin - it says so.  So that means he made $1140.  He'd go to tithing settlement with a hundred and twenty bucks in his pocket, and walk away whistling his happy full-tithe-payer tune.  He was happy to give his FIAT currency speech to anyone who would listen, and how the federal reserve was the anti-christ, and other such things.  It wasn't his fault the whole country does it wrong and prints worthless paper money - the coin is worth twenty bucks. 

Yeah, the bishop didn't like kick him out of the church or anything, but he didn't get his temple recommend signed either. 

A few years later, I helped him move.  It seems he ran afoul of the law and the IRS seized his house.

Edited April 12, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[eddified]

6 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Well let's take the sale of the home as an example, I buy a home for 250,000. I sell 10 years later for $650,000.  My gain is what?

If I am married I have a 500,00 exclusion, plus improvements and closing, so add in 20k closing costs, 75k improvements over 10 years totals $595,000. My gain on the sale of the home is $55,000. If you wanted to tithe the sale of your home you could pay $5,500.

I would disagree with this assessment. The 500,000 exclusion is useful ONLY for calculating what one owes the IRS, right? So there should absolutely be no use of a $500K exclusion figure when calculating your tithing. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, skalenfehl said:

We covenant to obey the law of consecration in the temple, but we are not provided means to do so.

I'm not sure I agree.

[yjacket]

50 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I knew a random survivalist nut a while ago.  He had an interesting approach to tithing.  He'd convert everything he made into US gold eagles.  These:

That coin is worth around $1400 at current gold prices.  But see how on the tails side, it says "Twenty Dollars"?   

So, he made $80,000 in a year, he'd convert it into 57 gold double-eagles.  Each one worth twenty bucks - just look at the coin - it says so.  So that means he made $1140.  He'd go to tithing settlement with a hundred and twenty bucks in his pocket, and walk away whistling his happy full-tithe-payer tune.  He was happy to give his FIAT currency speech to anyone who would listen, and how the federal reserve was the anti-christ, and other such things.  It wasn't his fault the whole country does it wrong and prints worthless paper money - the coin is worth twenty bucks. 

Yeah, the bishop didn't like kick him out of the church or anything, but he didn't get his temple recommend signed either. 

A few years later, I helped him move.  It seems he ran afoul of the law and the IRS seized his house.

That is definitely skating it . . .I read an article where one guy paid his employees in $20 gold pieces and then claimed to only pay taxes on that amount he gave to his employees.  That seems way more legit than converting FRNs to gold and then only paying on face value in FRNs.

I agree with a lot of his premise . . .but unless and until the IRS loses it's teeth, you best pay in what they want otherwise you'll be getting it (and I firmly believe taxation is just legal plunder/robbery, but I still pay----as little as I can---but I still pay).

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, yjacket said:

That is definitely skating it . . .I read an article where one guy paid his employees in $20 gold pieces and then claimed to only pay taxes on that amount he gave to his employees.  That seems way more legit than converting FRNs to gold and then only paying on face value in FRNs.

I agree with a lot of his premise . . .but unless and until the IRS loses it's teeth, you best pay in what they want otherwise you'll be getting it (and I firmly believe taxation is just legal plunder/robbery, but I still pay----as little as I can---but I still pay).

I agree. Taxation is theft, no doubt about it. 

But if you'll notice, it never ends well for people who refuse to pay their taxes. I would hope that my family needs me more than Federal Penitentiary #22 does! 

[Sunday21]

Re:tithing on sale of home, don't forget inflation. You need an equation that includes the compounding of inflation.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Re:tithing on sale of home, don't forget inflation. You need an equation that includes the compounding of inflation.

Very true. I hope the big picture isn't lost though. Anyone who cares enough about tithing to do all that paperwork and worry about paying tithing on this or that asset is on the right track. They should be commended for it. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by MormonGator

[Sunday21]

15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Very true. I hope the big picture isn't lost though. Anyone who cares enough about tithing to do all that paperwork and worry about paying tithing on this or that asset is on the right track. They should be commended for it. 

Good point!

[skalenfehl]

47 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure I agree.

The simplest solution I found is to liquidate all surplus property and pay it to the church as tithing. Thereafter is a matter of doing as outlined by the Lord in D&C 119. To my knowledge, however, the church doesn't normally receive surplus property such as farm tools, livestock, electronics, etc. 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Good point!

Thanks. I think too often those who follow the rules and do things right can be overlooked or worse, get caught up in pedantry. "I've never smoked a cigarette in my life but three days ago I was on the bus and sat near someone who smelled like cigarettes. Did I violate the word of wisdom by smelling stale cigarettes!?!?!!?!?!" 

[Sunday21]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Thanks. I think too often those who follow the rules and do things right can be overlooked or worse, get caught up in pedantry. "I've never smoked a cigarette in my life but three days ago I was on the bus and sat near someone who smelled like cigarettes. Did I violate the word of wisdom by smelling stale cigarettes!?!?!!?!?!" 

No! You are fine! Remember the prophet or apostle who ate the rum cake? Not to worry!

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

No! You are fine! Remember the prophet or apostle who ate the rum cake? Not to worry!

lol. Like the private investigator in the movie Psycho says "We are always quickest to doubt those who have a reputation for being honest." 

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, skalenfehl said:

The simplest solution I found is to liquidate all surplus property and pay it to the church as tithing. Thereafter is a matter of doing as outlined by the Lord in D&C 119. To my knowledge, however, the church doesn't normally receive surplus property such as farm tools, livestock, electronics, etc. 

That would be irresponsible.

[skalenfehl]

36 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That would be irresponsible.

 What I have offered conforms to the Lord's requirements as outlined in scripture as I understand it and so far you are not sure you agree and judge me irresponsible, but you have offered nothing nor have been helpful.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, skalenfehl said:

 What I have offered conforms to the Lord's requirements as outlined in scripture as I understand it and so far you are not sure you agree and judge me irresponsible, but you have offered nothing nor have been helpful.

A. Are you looking for help? Never struck me that was your intent posting here.

B. Did you sell off all your surplus proper and pay it all to tithing? If not then I'm fairly sure I didn't judge you irresponsible. If you did, then yes, I judge that irresponsible.

C. At best one should pay it to Fast Offering.

D. Viewing consecration in such limited terms doesn't fit the bill of what, I suspect, the "spirit" of the law is.

E. There are a thousand ways I could reasonably come up with that one might use their surplus, their lives, their talents, their possessions, etc., to build the kingdom of God.

F. The modern application of consecration is the dedication (fully) of that which we have to the Lord's kingdom. That may be applied as directly as you suggest by giving one's stuff to the church (but that practice is not being asked of us at this time), or by something as simple as paying for a child's education, saving to be able to go on missions, or even using the truck one might have to help others move, etc., etc. Dumping all this into tithing would be irresponsible because the "united order" form of practicing consecration is not in place. Once you give it in tithing, it's gone, and the opportunities you might have had to use that surplus for other good goes away.

G. Of course one could contend that none of these things qualify as "surplus", in which case I would think that very few members, on whole, have that much by way of "surplus" to pay to tithing. That being said, I know we probably mostly do not use our surplus in a way that is entirely dedicated to the Lord and the building of His kingdom.

H. My point in saying we could conform to the law of consecration currently was not to imply that we should try and mimic the system given in the scriptures without that system being currently practiced, which would not work. The idea of giving all to the church was that the church would give stuff back. It doesn't really work out if that system isn't in place. My point was that we can find other means of consecrating those things we have been blessed with to the Lord.

[skalenfehl]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I take the Lord's words at face value. I believe Him. If he says to offer up something in a prescribed manner, I do it as He requires. If others deem it irresponsible, I respect their opinions, however, obeying God precisely is how I choose to live my life to my best ability. I disagree that it is irresponsible. It has yielded fruit and that is what matters to me in my life. Fast offering is another matter and is not included in the Lord's "standing law forever" as outlined in D&C 119. And as the OP quoted:

Quote

...Every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly .

(First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970)

 I just happen to base my decision on what the Lord has explicitly declared in revelation and also based on scriptural precedents such as those of Abraham and Joseph Smith personally. The reason I said you were not helpful is because the OP was asking for help. 

[Guest]

Quote

The law of consecration is a divine principle whereby men and women voluntarily dedicate their time, talents, and material wealth to the establishment and building up of God’s kingdom.

-- LDS.org

The idea of simply "handing over" everything to an administrator in the Church is an older practice that was discontinued, I believe, due to practicality more than righteousness.  As the population grows and as the Saints grow more prosperous, the handling of all such properties would be a monumental undertaking.  I could go on for hours about the history of why it failed as a whole. But many UO systems which allowed individuals more autonomy were much more prosperous than the centrally planned systems.  It was this success that showed that when individuals are allowed the freedom to obey on their own instead of through central planning, prosperity abounds.

Instead of central planning, the Lord has told us through His servants to practice the current law of tithing by donating 10% of income FIRST, THEN we "DEDICATE" (or IOW "consecrate") rather than donate the remainder.  This leaves much of the administration of the details up to the individual. Tithing goes to the Church to maintain the skeleton.  But the body as a whole must care for the flesh and blood.  While we can certainly indicate signs of waste or other weaknesses, the strengths of the system governed by independent, righteous individuals, with voluntary dedication has provided the prosperity the Church has needed to grow as it has.

It isn't simply "hand-waving" to say that we are dedicating all our time, talents, and means to the building of the Kingdom.  To truly live the Law of Conscecration, one must approach all our decisions about how we spend our time, talents, and means with the question of how it affects the Kingdom.  How can this help me do something to let the Kingdom grow?

I'd submit that the Saints who do follow this process, are following the principle of consecration better than those who simply handed off their surplus to a centrally planned system -- even one run by priesthood -- and then forgot about it once it left their hands.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Guest

[skalenfehl]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd submit that the Saints who do follow this process, are following the principle of consecration better than those who simply handed off their surplus to a centrally planned system -- even one run by priesthood -- and then forgot about it once it left their hands.

I agree and it is how I try to live my life currently. Looking back at my post, I see that I shouldn't have incorporated the term "consecrate" when the Lord did not use the term in D&C 119 (other than what we read in the introduction). I conflated consecration with the law of tithing as outlined in the section and I apologize for that. 

[mordorbund]

6 hours ago, zil said:

or how to handle things when you own a business

I'm sure you already know this (since the booklet is on your phone) but the Church has given some general guidelines on this. From Starting and Growing My Business, chapter 5 "How do I separate my business and my family money?" (pg 67. See also the exercises in the rest of the section):

Quote

We know that great blessings come from paying tithing on our income. If we keep our business money and our personal money separate, it is easier to calculate our tithing. Remember these steps:

1. Keep business and personal money in separate accounts or locations.
2. We pay tithing on personal income (salary or commission) that we get paid from the business.
3. Money in the business is not tithed. The money in the business is used to pay for business expenses, wages, and growth.

 

[mordorbund]

I give you kudos @skalenfehl. Most people I hear who talk about reading 119 "in context" use it to justify only paying tithing on their annual surplus, which unsurprisingly results in very little. You are the first person I'm aware of who takes verse 1 at face value and says, "first things first, the surplus goes to Zion, and then the 1/10 kicks in." I'll still continue to tithe in a more traditional way, but I respect you for honoring both parts.

Edited April 13, 2017 by mordorbund

[zil]

8 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I'm sure you already know this (since the booklet is on your phone) but the Church has given some general guidelines on this. From Starting and Growing My Business, chapter 5 "How do I separate my business and my family money?" (pg 67. See also the exercises in the rest of the section):

 

Fascinating.  I had no idea that existed.  I prefer simple, therefore I prefer to be an employee.  But I have a feeling I will either have to become a slave or get myself fired by the end of next year, so this looks useful (though my "business" will be writing books, so we'll have to see how that booklet applies).

For those who also didn't know about this, it's in the Gospel Library, under Self-Reliance, under "PEF Self-Reliance Services", "Outside U.S. and Canada" (that's in the previous Android version, when using list view, but it should be in similar locations in other versions).

[Guest]

10 hours ago, skalenfehl said:

I agree and it is how I try to live my life currently. Looking back at my post, I see that I shouldn't have incorporated the term "consecrate" when the Lord did not use the term in D&C 119 (other than what we read in the introduction). I conflated consecration with the law of tithing as outlined in the section and I apologize for that. 

So, you've liquidated all your properties and given all the funds to the Church?  So, now you're homeless?

Edited April 13, 2017 by Guest

[eddified]

Reading D&C 119 makes it sound like giving surplus properties was only for when tithing was first instituted -- i.e. a one-time event only. 

[zil]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The idea of simply "handing over" everything to an administrator in the Church is an older practice that was discontinued, I believe, due to practicality more than righteousness.  As the population grows and as the Saints grow more prosperous, the handling of all such properties would be a monumental undertaking.  I could go on for hours about the history of why it failed as a whole. But many UO systems which allowed individuals more autonomy were much more prosperous than the centrally planned systems.  It was this success that showed that when individuals are allowed the freedom to obey on their own instead of through central planning, prosperity abounds.

Instead of central planning, the Lord has told us through His servants to practice the current law of tithing by donating 10% of income FIRST, THEN we "DEDICATE" (or IOW "consecrate") rather than donate the remainder.  This leaves much of the administration of the details up to the individual. Tithing goes to the Church to maintain the skeleton.  But the body as a whole must care for the flesh and blood.  While we can certainly indicate signs of waste or other weaknesses, the strengths of the system governed by independent, righteous individuals, with voluntary dedication has provided the prosperity the Church has needed to grow as it has.

It isn't simply "hand-waving" to say that we are dedicating all our time, talents, and means to the building of the Kingdom.  To truly live the Law of Conscecration, one must approach all our decisions about how we spend our time, talents, and means with the question of how it affects the Kingdom.  How can this help me do something to let the Kingdom grow?

I'd submit that the Saints who do follow this process, are following the principle of consecration better than those who simply handed off their surplus to a centrally planned system -- even one run by priesthood -- and then forgot about it once it left their hands.

I think that's the best talk on tithing and consecration I've ever heard.