How are we supposed to divide our worship of the Godhead?

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

Um, unless there's another person off screen in the foreground (one who is also wearing mother's drapes), that should be, "Doth Mother know thou wearest her drapes?"

Tony Stark doesn't know the proper usage of "thou". Or (more probably) he intentionally misuses it for comic effect.

(If you insist on being Mister Literal, substitute "Joss Whedon" for "Tony Stark".)

[zil]

Just now, Vort said:

Tony Stark doesn't know the proper usage of "thou". Or (more probably) he intentionally misuses it for comic effect.

OK.  (I have no prior knowledge of the scene being depicted, so whatever you say goes.)

Just now, Vort said:

(If you insist on being Mister Literal,

That's @Carborendum (although he prefers "Captain").

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

As with all things, the solution, should one wish for a solution, is found in time and effort.  For me, knowing what I know, modern English does not have an appropriate word (with the proper depth of meaning) for me to use in addressing my Heavenly Father, therefore, I must use the old form, as it has the meaning necessary to express how I perceive my relationship with my Heavenly Father, and so that my Father is not insulted by me using a term that would be wrong if I used it.  In my mind, this is no different from someone needing to pray in their native tongue.

I almost started using "thou" with my wife when we first married, but I decided that would be too awkward in a social setting. Later, we became great friends with a couple, the husband of whom called the wife by one (middle) name in public but by another (first) name in private. Since her first name rhymed with his last name, she had decided she didn't want to be called "Mary Sperry" after they were married, but since that is the name he knew her by, he kept calling her that in private (along with the rest of her family). If I could go back and do it all over again, I might do the same with my wife and the second person singular pronoun.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

OK.  (I have no prior knowledge of the scene being depicted, so whatever you say goes.)

That's @Carborendum (although he prefers "Captain").

That's Captain Literally.

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

That's Captain Literally.

Aye aye, Cap'n.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

OK.  (I have no prior knowledge of the scene being depicted, so whatever you say goes.)

Some years back, Sister Vort insisted that we rent and watch a (gag) superhero movie that I had simply not had the interest to go see in theaters. So I rolled my eyes and relented, and we Redboxed Iron Man.

What a great movie. Seriously. I can't even believe how much I liked it. It totally appealed to my inner geek, and Robert Downey Jr. nailed the part of the lovable rogue so well that, even while I found Tony Stark to be an insufferable boor, I couldn't help but kind of like him.

The second-best movie in that whole Marvel Comics movie series is the first Avengers movie, which I believe is where Carb's clip came from. If you watch both movies -- IN THAT ORDER -- I think you will be pleasantly surprised and decide it was worth the five bucks to rent them.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

OK.  (I have no prior knowledge of the scene being depicted, so whatever you say goes.)

At the 25 second mark.

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

My children all pray with "thou", "thee", "thy", and "thine". Simple and plain. I do the same.

Hum... the time I spent in primary it became obvious that younger children mostly used the word "you" in the place of "thee" "thou", "thine" etc. Why? Because they comprehend language as a means to communicate not as a ideaology one uses to worship. Thats my point- God didnt say to use different words in some formal way to address him. No, God wants us to just speak with him in our own language, in our own simple way that communicates our heart. Its our own construct, in which we now worship, to use an invented formal language to address God. But who made that technical rule? It wasnt God, I can assure you of that.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

At the 25 second mark.

[video]

 

[Rob Osborn]

57 minutes ago, zil said:

There are exceptions to everything, however...

It has been my experience that those who dislike the use of "thou", etc., generally do not understand their meaning nor how grammar works, and usually aren't interested in gaining understanding.  Often they also don't know a foreign language (as this form is still common in modern use in many foreign languages, thus aiding in comprehension of its use in English).  Thus, the use of these terms is difficult for them and interferes with expressing their thoughts and feelings.

It has been my experience that those who like the use, generally understand it and grammar rules in general, and often know a foreign language.  Thus, the use of these terms enhances and expands their ability to express their thoughts and feelings.

It has been my experience that there are many who fall in between and mimic what others do without a solid understanding (and therefore struggle when trying to figure out how to say something new), and don't give it much thought one way or the other.  Thus, the use of these terms results in a mixture of "no difference", "no special meaning", and "interference".

I do not make assumptions about any person based on their word choices in prayer, rather, I try to join my heart into their prayer.  Their reasons for their word choices are theirs, and I don't let their choices interfere.  Even were I called on to teach about use of the old second person forms, it would not be my place to judge another's choices, only to teach the how and why of the forms.

My reason for replying in this thread is not to judge anyone's personal word choices in their prayers, but simply to reject the notion that there is something wrong in choosing to use the old form of the second person in the English language.

As with all things, the solution, should one wish for a solution, is found in time and effort.  For me, knowing what I know, modern English does not have an appropriate word (with the proper depth of meaning) for me to use in addressing my Heavenly Father, therefore, I must use the old form, as it has the meaning necessary to express how I perceive my relationship with my Heavenly Father, and so that my Father is not insulted by me using a term that would be wrong if I used it.  In my mind, this is no different from someone needing to pray in their native tongue.

(Please note the italics before getting upset (should anyone be so inclined).  I have no doubt that when any given individual prays using the most appropriate language they know, our Heavenly Father hears their prayer just as gladly as any other.  But were one to deliberately use language that was less appropriate, I would expect Him to not be so pleased, as the only reason to knowingly use inappropriate language is to show some negative intent - disrespect, indifference, etc.)

And I think were all good, using what we think is right. The mistake happens when we begin to teach a certain way. Language is fluid and changes a lot. In old days people spoke according to how they learned. Hundreds of years ago most people learned in school how to speak from the bible. The word "thou" used to be common before the bible went into print and then the word "you" and "ye" came about and used in a more formal context. Funny stuff isnt it? The point is that God's language isnt like this, its not what he hears. Its our construct to create social structures of speech to refer to different classes of people. But, God doesnt classify his children this way, we are all holy creations of his and his address to us is always the same.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Vort]

24 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But who made that technical rule? It wasnt God, I can assure you of that.

There you go again, asserting that you know the mind of God. The more you talk, the less I believe that.

Many apostles of the Lord have suggested that the "technical rule" you rail against is a good idea. Their reasoning makes sense to me. Yours does not. Do you have any particular reasons why we should accept your less-logical word over their more-logical teachings?

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

There you go again, asserting that you know the mind of God.

More specifically, the mind of God for all.

[person0]

33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And I think were all good, using what we think is right.

Only until we adequately learn the most correct way in our language.  If we have been taught a higher way and purposefully continue an alternative preference then we are being disrespectful.  For example in Spanish, and other languages, if you pray without using the most personal forms of communication, people of all denominations will look at you weird, especially if you claim to be a missionary.

33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The point is that God's language isnt like this

You are right here.  God's language is perfect, and I find it more likely to believe that if we could pray in the Adamic tongue the words used to communicate with deity would be of an even higher order than thee, thy, thou, etc.  This is how amazing the language that Christ used was:

Quote

And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed. (3 Nephi 19:32)

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by person0

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

which I believe is where Carb's clip came from. 

Who's clip?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

God didnt say to use different words in some formal way to address him.

“In all our prayers, it is well to use the pronouns thee, thou, thy, and thine instead of you, your, and yours inasmuch as they have come to indicate respect.” - President Spencer W. Kimball (Faith Precedes the Miracle, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972, p. 201.)

"Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" - The Lord (D&C 1:38)

Edited April 14, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Who's clip?

TFP's clip, like I said.

[Edspringer]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not really. We worship God. That's it. It includes them all and when we worship one we worship the three. Everything you say about the three above also applies to the other two.

So we need to really understand the meaning of the word " worship". The Cambridge Dictionary says that worship is “to have or show a strong feeling of respect and admiration for God or a god”. The Oxford Dictionary defines worship as “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity”. In the Guide for the Scripture we read that worship is the “Love, reverence, service, and devotion for God (D&C 20:19). Worship includes prayer, fasting, church service, participating in gospel ordinances, and other practices that show devotion and love for God. With all these definitions in mind, it becomes clear who we truly worship and how:

We show a strong feeling of respect, admiration, an expression of reverence, adoration, love, service and devotion for all the three members of the Godhead, so you made your point here. Nevertheless we pray and fast to God only, not to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost. When we exercise faith and repentance, we show our love, reverence and respect to Jesus Christ and, through the ordinance of baptism and the sacrament, we worship Him. Because of the ordinance of confirmation we receive the companionship of the Holy Ghost and by living righteously, we become worthy of His enduring presence and show our respect and devotion to His role and the Testator and Comforter.

Although the Godhead is constitute of three separate beings, they are one in purpose and mind, but God is the One who presides the other two. They all have distinct roles in the plan of salvation, as the Prophet Joseph Smith once taught in the Lectures of Faith and none of them will perform their duty with nothing in mind other than the full glory of God. Let’s remember that Lucifer wanted the Father’s glory all to himself and because of that he became Satan and was cast out of heaven.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am oft reminded of a talk years ago about the language of prayer.

Rob, I think I understand the point you are making.  Although I can't agree 100%, I do agree in part.   I think the most important thing is the intent of our hearts, not our prayer language. True.

However,  when I learned Spanish (for my mission) I learned that they have two forms of "you"  there is a familiar that you "tu" used with family and friends, and a formal that you "usted" used with strangers, or children use with adults.  Because we use "Thee" in our prayers, I thought that in Spanish they would use the formal you, "usted" in prayers.  But I was wrong.  I was taught to use "tu" in my prayers, because that is the you used with family and in prayer we are addressing our Father.   That was a pleasant surprise.

So why does English use the formal form of "you'?  Actually we don't.  It's my understanding that English used to have two forms of YOU as well.  Thee was the informal one.  That got lost over the years, and today we use the formal version for everything.  I'm not a linguist, but that is my understanding.  The bottom line, is that I now think of "thee" as a more intimate form of communication---not formal and puffy, but something reserved for a very special relationship.  

[Guest]

13 hours ago, person0 said:

  For example in Spanish, and other languages, if you pray without using the most personal forms of communication, people of all denominations will look at you weird

We must have had very different experiences in Spanish.  I found that most people react similarly as they do in English.  i.e they prefer to use the formal forms.  However, for them it is a different motivation.  They do it because it is the more formal form -- to show more respect.  We (i.e. most Americans) do it because we're not used to the archaic tongue.

Those who are more educated in theology will certainly pray in the familiar.  But the people I taught on my mission were not so educated.  They preferred to use the formal.  And when we told them to pray with the informal they were shocked.  It is God after all, that we are addressing.  It should certainly be the formal.

All my companions had very different explanations for why we did that.  At the time, I honestly didn't know.  I simply followed the forms before me.

[zil]

My experience with Spanish and Russian matches @person0's and @LiterateParakeet's, not @Carborendum's - namely, the familiar, intimate (not the same as "informal" in my opinion) term is used rather than the non-intimate term reserved for authority figures and strangers.  But my experience was certainly not from a mission and is very limited in Spanish and not that extensive with Russians.

"Thou" in English has gone through various meanings (formal to intimate), but for me, it is the intimate term of address and conveys things "you" simply cannot - "you" being too vague and common a term.  And I was always taught that this is its use - intimate, and respectful the way you feel love and respect for a Father, not the way you demonstrate politeness and respect for a stranger or authority figure (the latter often coming with implications of negative consequences should respect not be demonstrated).

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 minute ago, zil said:

the familiar, intimate (not the same as "informal"

You are so right.  I never thought of it that way until now, but I agree. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, zil said:

the familiar, intimate (not the same as "informal" in my opinion) term is used rather than the non-intimate term reserved for authority figures and strangers. 

Not necessarily so in Spanish. In my French class, one of my native Spanish speaking classmates used the vous form instead of the tu form when "addressing" her mother during an exercise.  My teacher objected asking,"Are you always so formal with your mother?"

The student replied that she was.  She always used the usted with her parents.  And it wasn't that they didn't have a warm family.  They did.  But she always gave her parents this respect.  Another student who was a friend of hers agreed.  Yet another student (again, all three were native Spanish speakers) disagreed.  They used the tu form to address parents in her family.

This exchange was even repeated a couple weeks later in class.  Apparently, the teacher forgot.

Details like this vary from culture to culture and family to family.

But to address your last phrase, is God an authority figure?  I'd say so.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Details like this vary from culture to culture and family to family.

Yes, and Spanish in particular is so broadly spoken that there will be many, many cultural influences on it.

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But to address your last phrase, is God an authority figure?  I'd say so.

Of course.  But first and foremost in my mind is that He is my Father.  I believe He wants me to love him more than to fear him, to be intimate and respectful the way one respects family members, not strangers who have the power to, say, toss you jail (certainly, God can toss me in spiritual jail, but I don't think that's the relationship He wants me to seek).

[Blackmarch]

On April 13, 2017 at 11:51 PM, Zarahemla said:

This has been a topic that I've been wondering about. We talk about mainly Jesus in church,  conference talks and scriptures and it's His church, but isn't Heavenly Father the one we should be worshipping and forming a relationship with since He's the Father of us and God? And where does the Holy Ghost come in in our worship? 

Yes. God the father is who we pray to and seek to please.

Christ is our mediator and representative to god the father- he represents the father to us, and in turn he brings us to the father.

The holy ghost is the primary means of communicating to us, but also is part of the process of being sanctified (to be able to be in the fathers or the sons presence one must needs be sanctified). He is also a promised companion, should we remain true to our covenants. (it could also be seen as the one who brings us to christ)

[Rob Osborn]

On 4/14/2017 at 4:58 PM, person0 said:

Only until we adequately learn the most correct way in our language.  If we have been taught a higher way and purposefully continue an alternative preference then we are being disrespectful.  For example in Spanish, and other languages, if you pray without using the most personal forms of communication, people of all denominations will look at you weird, especially if you claim to be a missionary.

You are right here.  God's language is perfect, and I find it more likely to believe that if we could pray in the Adamic tongue the words used to communicate with deity would be of an even higher order than thee, thy, thou, etc.  This is how amazing the language that Christ used was:

 

Yes, if we all spoke the Adamic language we would all address each other in the highest and holy respect.