"Born That Way" Denies Atonement

[Guest]

I've been studying the "enabling" power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ recently.  It has conjured some interesting thoughts.

Quote

And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

2 Ne 2:13

This verse really says a LOT when looked through the lens of the enabling power of the Atonement.

I remember a debate between Chirstopher Hitchins and John Lennox where Hitchins asked the question:

Quote

What can I not say or do that you as a Christian can simply because you believe in a God? (paraphrased)

Lennox reply was about the Atonement.  But what he said was about what Christ could do, not what we as people can do.  That bothered me a bit.  I had a great deal of respect for Lennox and his efforts as a Christian apologist.  But this answer seemed to fall short.  However, from what I've been reading lately, it is very much the topic that is exactly what Atheists cannot do or say.

The saving power of the Atonement is what allows us to be forgiven for past sins.  But the enabling power is what allows us to change and become better.  One might say that it is the justifying and the sanctifying effects.  I'm not sure if that's the message I'm getting at here.  But it is close.

I've only recently come to truly understand that the Atonement is not just about forgiveness for the past.  It really does give us the power to change for the future.  It gives us the power to become sanctified.  But look at what is happening to most belief systems as we turn away from God?

• We can't change who we are.  We're just born a certain way.  
• Even Christians who believe the "philosophy of the worm" deny that they can do any better or be any better.

This has so many ramifications that I can't count them all.  But a couple stand out in my mind. 

• Government handouts are demanded by many, not just because people like getting free stuff or have a safety net.  Many simply believe there is nothing better.  They cannot do any better. They NEED government to take care of them because they simply cannot change their circumstance.  Many even turn to crime by the same logic.
• GLBT groups demand respect for something they believe they truly cannot change.  How can they be held responsible for something if they cannot change it?  They were simply born that way?

I know with the thread about the 12 yo testimony that I mentioned separating the sin from the sinner a lot.  But understand what that's really saying.

• As disciples of Christ we forgive and love the individual because Christ Atoned for everyone's sins, even ours.  That is how we should face the sin.
• This is recognition of the saving power of the Atonement.
• As Latter-Day Saints we believe in making bad men good and good men better.  This is how we face the person (including ourselves).
• This is the recognition of the enabling power of the Atonement.

If a gay man asks for forgiveness by the power of the Atonement, he is asking for the saving power.  If a gay man makes the decision to change his nature, he is asking for the enabling power of the Atonement.  By only going half-way, we only half-way accept the Atonement.  By going further and asking for the enabling power to change human nature, we are fully accepting the Atonement.

Deciding "I was just born that way.  So, don't judge me!" is rejecting the Atonement outright.  It is saying

• I don't want forgiveness because it's no sin anyway. There is no sin.
• I don't need enabling to change who I am.  I'm fine just as I am because God doesn't make mistakes.

I have a million other things to say on this.  But going down a LONG thought train of concepts and ideas I can only think

Quote

For they put to death every Nephite who will not deny the Christ.  And I will not deny the Christ.

When we think of denying Christ, we often picture having a sword to our throats and being coerced into speaking the words.  I don't think that's the more common way people deny the Christ.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Guest

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I've been studying the "enabling" power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ recently.  It has conjured some interesting thoughts.

This verse really says a LOT when looked through the lens of the enabling power of the Atonement.

I remember a debate between Chirstopher Hitchins and John Lennox where Hitchins asked the question:

Lennox reply was about the Atonement.  But what he said was about what Christ could do, not what we as people can do.  That bothered me a bit.  I had a great deal of respect for Lennox and his efforts as a Christian apologist.  But this answer seemed to fall short.  However, from what I've been reading lately, it is very much the topic that is exactly what Atheists cannot do or say.

The saving power of the Atonement is what allows us to be forgiven for past sins.  But the enabling power is what allows us to change and become better.  One might say that it is the justifying and the sanctifying effects.  I'm not sure if that's the message I'm getting at here.  But it is close.

I've only recently come to truly understand that the Atonement is not just about forgiveness for the past.  It really does give us the power to change for the future.  It gives us the power to become sanctified.  But look at what is happening to most belief systems as we turn away from God?

• We can't change who we are.  We're just born a certain way.  
• Even Christians who believe the "philosophy of the worm" deny that they can do any better or be any better.

This has so many ramifications that I can't count them all.  But a couple stand out in my mind. 

• Government handouts are demanded by many, not just because people like getting free stuff or have a safety net.  Many simply believe there is nothing better.  They cannot do any better. They NEED government to take care of them because they simply cannot change their circumstance.  Many even turn to crime by the same logic.
• GLBT groups demand respect for something they believe they truly cannot change.  How can they be held responsible for something if they cannot change it?  They were simply born that way?

I know with the thread about the 12 yo testimony that I mentioned separating the sin from the sinner a lot.  But understand what that's really saying.

• As disciples of Christ we forgive and love the individual because Christ Atoned for everyone's sins, even ours.  That is how we should face the sin.
• This is recognition of the saving power of the Atonement.
• As Latter-Day Saints we believe in making bad men good and good men better.  This is how we face the person (including ourselves).
• This is the recognition of the enabling power of the Atonement.

If a gay man asks for forgiveness by the power of the Atonement, he is asking for the saving power.  If a gay man makes the decision to change his nature, he is asking for the enabling power of the Atonement.  By only going half-way, we only half-way accept the Atonement.  By going further and asking for the enabling power to change human nature, we are fully accepting the Atonement.

Deciding "I was just born that way.  So, don't judge me!" is rejecting the Atonement outright.  It is saying

• I don't want forgiveness because it's no sin anyway. There is no sin.
• I don't need enabling to change who I am.  I'm fine just as I am because God doesn't make mistakes.

I have a million other things to say on this.  But going down a LONG thought train of concepts and ideas I can only think

When we think of denying Christ, we often picture having a sword to our throats and being coerced into speaking the words.  I don't think that's the more common way people deny the Christ.

It is sad to see so many, not just LGBT, use the excuse "that is just the way I am" or "God made me this way". 

Many christian sects today are more damning than atheism. They teach that God made them from scratch and who they are is exactly how they are intended to be. Even atheists know they can become better people and often choose to.

[Snigmorder]

The Leftist program deems it "homophobic" to suggest there's anything undesirable about homosexuality and that it should be changed.

I'm completely anonymous so I'm not concerned sharing this. In my own experience homosexuality is deviancy from regular sexuality caused by environment and stimuli. In my own case the environment and stimuli was first chronic masturbation since age 6 and then a pornography addiction since age 15. These things made me hypersexual (a huge pervert) and I desired more extremeness. Having become bored of "straight" porn, I found myself looking at gay porn, and thereafter more and more frequently. To cut that short, it got to the point where the manner of my perversion resembled that of a San Francisco queer in the 70's (in case you don't know what that means, it's bad.) It would have been the easiest thing in the world to imagine someone catching a bias against regular sexuality early (for a variety of reasons) and growing up to call themselves "gay" or "born this way." 

It would have also been the easiest thing in the world for me to become a queen with very little mental gymnastics had I not been taught the gospel in my youth. Because I was taught the gospel I was able the avoid being deceived by sodomite fads and believe things like "Oh, I feel sexual towards men, I must be gay." I knew better. Because I knew better I never jettisoned my natural attraction for women, no matter how buried by deviancy it got. 

 Because of the enabling power of the atonement I was able to rediscover the correct feelings, those of the Cestial order. Having struggled to get away from porn and masturbation, I found myself admiring women more. Until one night, it was like the dawn. I learned new (or perhaps forgotten) feelings towards women and a new view which was unlike anything I had supposed. It was as though the Holy Ghost had established his Fortress in the dark, mountainous crags of my abused mind and I couldn't help but behold.

 I won't deny the complexity of human things and assume that my experience explains other people's conditions. But I also won't deny that we aren't all that different and the feelings and process may not be all that different.

[Fether]

23 minutes ago, changed said:

On the other hand, the Mormon belief - "29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, ..." so it was not God's fault that we are the way we are...  but there is still some sort of entrapment there, I'm not sure how we are children of God if we were not created, and I am also not sure that there is hope for everyone due to the eternal nature of who we are... 

Seems like the Mormon belief is that this life is a test, sort of a sifting process to see which of the un-created intelligences is able to progress, and which are not able.  If not even God can refine those who end up in outer darkness - not even God can somehow bring all of us to the celestial kingdom, then the reality remains some are simply unable to progress - just their nature, nothing anyone (even God) can do about it.

That is the exact truth. Our very nature of who we are and who we have chosen to become will decide our eternal outcome. There IS hope for everyone and we see the fruit of that hope in the resurrection. Everyone will end up where they want to be. murderers will not want to be around the righteous and visa versa. Those that deny Christ/Holy Ghost even after seeing him will not want to be apart of any kingdom that involves the godhead. 

Everyonr will be where they choose to be. Who you choose to associate with and be today will carry on to the next life.

There is no entrapment because everything is based off what WE want and do. 

Maybe I am missing something with you comment. Expound more?

[Rob Osborn]

10 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

The Leftist program deems it "homophobic" to suggest there's anything undesirable about homosexuality and that it should be changed.

I'm completely anonymous so I'm not concerned sharing this. In my own experience homosexuality is deviancy from regular sexuality caused by environment and stimuli. In my own case the environment and stimuli was first chronic masturbation since age 6 and then a pornography addiction since age 15. These things made me hypersexual (a huge pervert) and I desired more extremeness. Having become bored of "straight" porn, I found myself looking at gay porn, and thereafter more and more frequently. To cut that short, it got to the point where the manner of my perversion resembled that of a San Francisco queer in the 70's (in case you don't know what that means, it's bad.) It would have been the easiest thing in the world to imagine someone catching a bias against regular sexuality early (for a variety of reasons) and growing up to call themselves "gay" or "born this way." 

It would have also been the easiest thing in the world for me to become a queen with very little mental gymnastics had I not been taught the gospel in my youth. Because I was taught the gospel I was able the avoid being deceived by sodomite fads and believe things like "Oh, I feel sexual towards men, I must be gay." I knew better. Because I knew better I never jettisoned my natural attraction for women, no matter how buried by deviancy it got. 

 Because of the enabling power of the atonement I was able to rediscover the correct feelings, those of the Cestial order. Having struggled to get away from porn and masturbation, I found myself admiring women more. Until one night, it was like the dawn. I learned new (or perhaps forgotten) feelings towards women and a new view which was unlike anything I had supposed. It was as though the Holy Ghost had established his Fortress in the dark, mountainous crags of my abused mind and I couldn't help but behold.

 I won't deny the complexity of human things and assume that my experience explains other people's conditions. But I also won't deny that we aren't all that different and the feelings and process may not be all that different.

I agree with your story. Being anonymous makes it easier to say the truth on such a matter. I agree fully that our sexuality and choices come from either our own chosen stimulus or from stimulus from an external source or cause. Because it often happens gradual we may not recognize that moment when suddenly we realize an attraction towards something.

[Traveler]

The scientific definition of intelligence (for us artificial intelligence types) is the ability to learn and change one’s behavior.  The operative word is “CHANGE”.  Besides perverting the atonement – the idea that we are born that way delivers a message that those so thinking are not intelligent and denies agency.  It should be very clear where this idea comes from and has root for nourishment.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

23 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

The Leftist program deems it "homophobic" to suggest there's anything undesirable about homosexuality and that it should be changed.

I'm completely anonymous so I'm not concerned sharing this. In my own experience homosexuality is deviancy from regular sexuality caused by environment and stimuli. In my own case the environment and stimuli was first chronic masturbation since age 6 and then a pornography addiction since age 15. These things made me hypersexual (a huge pervert) and I desired more extremeness. Having become bored of "straight" porn, I found myself looking at gay porn, and thereafter more and more frequently. To cut that short, it got to the point where the manner of my perversion resembled that of a San Francisco queer in the 70's (in case you don't know what that means, it's bad.) It would have been the easiest thing in the world to imagine someone catching a bias against regular sexuality early (for a variety of reasons) and growing up to call themselves "gay" or "born this way." 

It would have also been the easiest thing in the world for me to become a queen with very little mental gymnastics had I not been taught the gospel in my youth. Because I was taught the gospel I was able the avoid being deceived by sodomite fads and believe things like "Oh, I feel sexual towards men, I must be gay." I knew better. Because I knew better I never jettisoned my natural attraction for women, no matter how buried by deviancy it got. 

 Because of the enabling power of the atonement I was able to rediscover the correct feelings, those of the Cestial order. Having struggled to get away from porn and masturbation, I found myself admiring women more. Until one night, it was like the dawn. I learned new (or perhaps forgotten) feelings towards women and a new view which was unlike anything I had supposed. It was as though the Holy Ghost had established his Fortress in the dark, mountainous crags of my abused mind and I couldn't help but behold.

 I won't deny the complexity of human things and assume that my experience explains other people's conditions. But I also won't deny that we aren't all that different and the feelings and process may not be all that different.

 

Thank you for your input.  I believe that there is ample research that cognitive behaviors in intelligence species are learned (or acquired) behaviors.  The reality is that there is no scientific or empirical evidence that cognitive behaviors cannot be modified or learned nor is there scientific or empirical evidence that proves that cognitive behaviors are not related to some level of learning.   The problem is that when personal pleasure is involved – reason and intelligence is not the engine driving personal choices.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

The problem is that when personal pleasure is involved – reason and intelligence is not the engine driving personal choices.

This statement needs a "sometimes" added to it.

[askandanswer]

On 14/07/2017 at 1:41 AM, Carborendum said:

On 14/07/2017 at 1:41 AM, Carborendum said:

And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

2 Ne 2:13

This scripture has always bothered me and when I come across it, I sometimes think about it. One example: I suspect that in the pre-existence, while we were in the presence of God, there was probably very little in the way of punishment or misery - but there surely was God. And in the celestial kingdom, in the presence of God, there will surely be very little in the way of punishment and misery. And yet Nephi is suggesting that in the absence of punishment and misery there can be no God. I find this to be a difficult conclusion to agree with. 

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by askandanswer

[Snigmorder]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

@Carborendum 

My understanding of the passage is that without punishments for broken law, God would have no authority.

Similar to a government that doesn't enforce it's laws, it would have no authority. Or parents which say "i'll take your toy if you misbehave" but don't actually take it when the child misbehaves, they have no authority.

I don't read it to mean that God would somehow disintegrate or some external authority would remove his exaltation.

And there were definitely punishments for broken laws in the pre-existence, just look at the one third of the hosts of Heaven which were thrust down.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Snigmorder

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

@Carborendum 

My understanding of the passage is that without punishments for broken law, God would have no authority.

Similar to a government that doesn't enforce it's laws, it would have no authority. Or parents which say "i'll take your toy if you misbehave" but don't actually take it when the child misbehaves, they have no authority.

I don't read it to mean that God would somehow disintegrate or some external authority would remove his exaltation.

And there were definitely punishments for broken laws in the pre-existence, just look at the one third of the hosts of Heaven which were thrust down.

I didn't say that. Someone misquoted me.

[Snigmorder]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I didn't say that. Someone misquoted me.

Excuse me.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Excuse me.

Not you.  I think it was askandanswer.  Difficult to read on a mobile device

[Traveler]

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 5:09 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

This statement needs a "sometimes" added to it.

 

The statement originally came from my mission president (Robert L. Backman who later served as a general authority) some 50 years ago.  Initially the quote was more along the line “The problem is that when personal pleasure is involved – reason and intelligence is thrown out the window.”   I liked what I was taught by my mission president and as you can see made it mine with some word changes.  You are welcome to take ownership yourself and add “sometimes” as you like.

 

The Traveler