unequal relationships

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, jewels8 said:

That is too bad, but I am not going to judge her or anyone else.

Great!

For a while there, I thought you were judging men, including Heavenly Father, as women-users-and-abusers and everybody else as insensitive people.

[jewels8]

Well, I can see where you are coming from.  I know not all men are like that.  In this world though, it is a big problem.  Men rape women and girls all the time.  Statistics are that 1 in 5 and sometimes 1 in 3 women are sexually abused, that's alot.  Pornography is such a big problem.  Men get abused too, but no where near the rate females do.  It is sad for everyone and I think that it is understandable that some may wonder about that and even wonder about how things will be in heaven.  I know Heavenly Father is good, kind, and caring, but he also needs to judge, etc.  And we really don't know everything, in our limited sphere, here on earth.  Women and men are not perfect.  They both make mistakes.  I think it is important that they can both find peace in doing what is right and not following the world.  I think both righteous women and men should feel security in knowing that they can have the same kind of relationship with each other in the next life that they would want or have here.  Things need to be fair and I think we should all be able to feel hope and faith in a better world where things are equal and both women and men do not have to worry about all the things we seem to have to deal with here.  And I hope that things will be treated with sensitivity and nothing unreasonable has to be dealt with in the next life for women in particular, but there are men who wouldn't want a wife to have to deal with sharing him.  Carol Lynn Pearson shared a quote a man made, and I don't have it in front of me, but it was sometning about how he wanted her to feel that she could have all of him and he could have all of her, but with polygamy, he knew that wouldn't be true for her.  And I appreciated that at least he was honest and caring about her feelings.  

[anatess2]

24 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

Well, I can see where you are coming from.  I know not all men are like that.  In this world though, it is a big problem.  Men rape women and girls all the time.  Statistics are that 1 in 5 and sometimes 1 in 3 women are sexually abused, that's alot.

I'm just gonna stop it right here.  I have 2 teen-age boys and you are actively denigrating their character.

Feminism is cancer.  You are one of its victims.  Get out and get red-pilled while you can before you hurt one of my boys with this garbage.

Edited September 5, 2017 by anatess2

[jewels8]

I realize that I went a bit overboard before in my original post, especially, and I am sorry about that.  But I know that women (and men) do suffer there whole life if they have been abused in any way, especially, I think, women and girls who have been sexually abused in a rough way, a way that keeps going on, etc.  And if it happens to men, it affects them too, and it really needs to stop.  Through the Savior's Atonement, people can be healed of anything, but it takes time and in a world like ours, it may never fully come about because we do not live in a celestial sphere, we live in a telestial one.  We have temples, which are a symbol of so many good things, including the celestial, but how many girls, boys, women and men who are broken, ever enter those doors?  And even if they do, most of the time, they are having to deal with things among telestial influences.  There is much that can be done to help, by being sensitive to the spirit, going to an appropriate, LDS based therapist, a bishop, family & friends, but sometimes even these people let them down or blame them, etc, because they are not perfect either.  And it may be hard to confide in someone or be believed that it is happening, especially if the abuser is a family member, spouse or friend. I've heard, unfortunately (and most bishops wouldn't do this), but of bishops blaming the wife for her husband's pornography usage or for him wanting to divorce her.  While I believe bishops are Judges in Israel (and I'm sure it would be a big responsibility) and women make misktakes too, that shouldn't be said to her.  She is dealing with problems enough, because of his choices, and if the divorce is a result that he has been unfaithful to her, for example, then that may not be the best way to go about it.  Ofcourse, the bishop is open to inspiration, and every case will and should be guided by the spirit, and most of the time, I think bishops try to do that, but they are not perfect, just as the people they counsel are not perfect.  However, they do have that mantle of responsibility and need to be very careful to follow the Spirit, as we all should do.   Abuse of any kind is wrong, so damaging , and it all needs to stop so that life can become better for everyone.  If these people, particularly women (I'm not trying to exclude men, its just that women get more sexually abused statistically and tend to be more emotional-that's the way God made us, so they hurt really easily, not saying men don't hurt, men have emotions too), already have a hard time trusting a man, having a good or close relationship with him , and then are being not treated sensitvely to someone they are trying to put their trust in , it can be devastating for them.  We all need to try to be more kind and more sensitive to one another, as our prophet as counseled.  It can be hard for a  woman to believe in a just and loving God, if this is how she has been treated.  And  when she reads in the Bible that God gave hundreds of wives to David and Solomon and /or allowed it, how does that make her feel?  And in the D&C when He says that women are given to men to bear the souls of men and in other scriptures, if a married man dies (Bible) , the wife has to marry the brother to raise up seed to him.  Well, yes that was the custom of the time , but what if the woman didn't want to marry the brother?  What if the brother was a  pervert?  Or she wasn't attracted to him?  What if she wasn't comfortable with that?  And in the D&C, fi a man isn't faithful, his wife is given to another.  Does she have a choice in the matter?  She may feel that woman are exchangeable, like computers or any other object.  When references are made about female body parts in the scriptures and by old testament prophets, I feel it is unnecessary, and they could find other words.  Do they talk about men's sacred body parts?  I think there should be more sensitivity towards women in general.  I know the Lord does uphold women as daughters of God, but I think there can be more emphasis on a woman's own personality, feelings, strengths and sensitivity surrounding her weaknesses and feelings then we seem to come across in and out of the Church today, and polygamy really is something that is a  sensitive topic for a lot of women and some men too.  And kids.(they will learn about it eventually, if they haven't already, and how do we want them to regard womanhood and marriage?)

 

[jewels8]

I am sorry you feel that way Anatees 2, if you take time to feel the spirit and read everything, you will know in your heart that that is not what I am doing.  Unfortunately, this is the world we live in.  I have nothing against your 2 teenage sons.  I have good teenage sons myself  and they know that i love and respect them, their manhood, the priesthood and womanhood.  I am not a feminist as much as I am a lover of truth, of goodness and of equality.  I love Sis.Sheri Dew.  She is amazing.  I love our prophet, Pres. Monson.  I think its best that we all are careful before we post, myself included.  If you read everything else I wrote, I think you can understand.  I think boys and men that know how this hurts women, can be some of the most sensitive and caring men that there are.  Men who honor their priesthood are to be commended.  I am sorry if you felt I was coming across differently, I have made many comments that show that that I am not trying to be deragatory to men.  Like I mentioned before, I have a good husband.  I'm just saying, there are more woman then people may realize, who have been hurt, and if any one, woman or man, boy or girl, ever confides that someone did something to them, I hope that whoever they confide too will believe them and love them as our Savior would.  Now, can you think of a better example of manhood and Godhood then the Savior?  I would love to have every man and woman to be like Him.  What a wonderful thing it would be like to be in His presence.  

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

I am sorry you feel that way Anatees 2, if you take time to feel the spirit and read everything, you will know in your heart that that is not what I am doing.  Unfortunately, this is the world we live in.  I have nothing against your 2 teenage sons.  I have good teenage sons myself  and they know that i love and respect them, their manhood, the priesthood and womanhood.  I am not a feminist as much as I am a lover of truth, of goodness and of equality.  I love Sis.Sheri Dew.  She is amazing.  I love our prophet, Pres. Monson.  I think its best that we all are careful before we post, myself included.  If you read everything else I wrote, I think you can understand.  I think boys and men that know how this hurts women, can be some of the most sensitive and caring men that there are.  Men who honor their priesthood are to be commended.  I am sorry if you felt I was coming across differently, I have made many comments that show that that I am not trying to be deragatory to men.  Like I mentioned before, I have a good husband.  I'm just saying, there are more woman then people may realize, who have been hurt, and if any one, woman or man, boy or girl, ever confides that someone did something to them, I hope that whoever they confide too will believe them and love them as our Savior would.  Now, can you think of a better example of manhood and Godhood then the Savior?  I would love to have every man and woman to be like Him.  What a wonderful thing it would be like to be in His presence.  

The bolded above is a judgment of my character.  So, its either you have poor communication skills or you just judged that I don't take time to feel the spirit and "read everything".

You can't possibly love and respect manhood and say things like - Women get raped all the time.  So, it's either you have poor communication skills or you believe the feminist cancer bled onto society that men are rapists.  I think you believe the feminist cancer even as you don't think you're a feminist.  Weren't you the one who believed adultery is the same as rape?

Honestly, I have a hard time reading your posts.  English is only my 3rd language and I can't stick to a wall of text that is not properly paragraphed.  It gives me crossed eyes.  So yeah, I have a hard time understanding what you're saying.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by anatess2

[jewels8]

There could be other possiblilites too.  Sometimes it isn't an either or thing.  Life is more complicated than that.  I'm just saying we can all be more sensitive and I did not take offense to your post, and I hope you have a good day.  I can sympathize with where you may be coming from, and my later post(s) do contain paragraphs.  I feel I have apologized more than needful in my posts.  We all can forgive & forget and the Savior can help us through anything.  May peace come to us all through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

There could be other possiblilites too.  Sometimes it isn't an either or thing.  Life is more complicated than that.  I'm just saying we can all be more sensitive and I did not take offense to your post, and I hope you have a good day.  I can sympathize with where you may be coming from, and my later post(s) do contain paragraphs.  I feel I have apologized more than needful in my posts.  We all can forgive & forget and the Savior can help us through anything.  May peace come to us all through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Okay.  I read this whole thing word for word.  So, let me try to understand your communication style.

On a post before this, you told me "If you take time to feel the spirit...".  This tells me that you believe I don't take the time to feel the spirit.  In the post I quoted, you said... "I did not take offense to your post".  This tells me that my post is offensive but you didn't take offense at it.

So, is what I believe you're telling me correct?  If it is not correct, then explain to me what you mean by those 2 sentences so I can understand what you're trying to say.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, jewels8 said:

Things need to be fair

jewels8, you are mistaken. Things do not "need to be fair". That's putting the cart before the horse. Things need to be REAL, in the eternal sense. Obviously we have a lot of ugly realities here, but in the eternities we will not live like that. We will live in a much more "real" sense. However God lives, whatever his society and relations, THAT is how things should be. Whether or not it is "fair" is entirely a personal judgment with no external reference. Which is to say, it's meaningless, like the little girl saying it's "not fair" that she isn't a butterfly or a Pokemon.

What is the very best possible definition of "fairness"? I would say it is as follows: Fairness is when things (relationships, actions, consequences, etc.) are arranged as God would arrange them. But what if God would exalt one person and condemn another? Then that is fair. What if God would command and sanction plural marriage, wherein one man enters into several marital covenants with several women? Then that is fair. What if God would allow one man to prosper in his sin while another man, more righteous than the first, suffers all manner of indignity and degradation? Then that is fair.

Let us not put our foolish and ignorant ideas of "fairness" above what our Father ordains. Let us not use our own sense of fairness as the final arbiter of all disputes.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Vort

[Guest]

I have a question that is related to this thread.  So, I hope this is not a thread jack.  But I was just finding it interesting how many times I keep hearing on this thread, and elsewhere on the internet how unfair polygamy is and why men are obsessed with it and how many women struggle with it.

IRL, I know about a dozen women in family and friend circles well enough that I feel comfortable talking about the subject with them -- and several dozen men.  Here's what I found out in my anecdotal poll:

1. Not a single woman has a problem with it.
2. Not a single man spends much time obsessing over it at all or even giving it much thought except for academic discussion such as this thread.
3. The only people obsessing over it are women online.

Am I living in a bubble or something?  To fit the norm, should I spend more time licking my lips considering all the gorgeous wives I'm to have in the next life? Maybe I'll become a suicide bomber just to top it off.  We're not Muslims.

And I really don't see what the problem is that causes women to struggle.  I know several women on this board have struggled with it.  And I don't mean to diminish your struggles.  But I truly don't understand.  What is it that causes such heartache?

I'm even considering if the roles were reversed would I have a problem with it?  Well, two situations:

1) Polyandry in this life:

• Of course, I'd prefer to have a one-on-one relationship.  It is very special.  But if the Lord commanded it, then He commanded it.  I don't know why exactly.  But there it is.
• I'd find it difficult to share the TIME spent with my wife.  
• But with proper scheduling I figure we could figure things out.
• It would be great to combine incomes and other resources to make our lives better.
• I'd actually have a friend I could talk to about "guy" stuff and go have a guys night out.  (As wonderful as my wife is, there are some things about men she will never understand).

2) Polyandry in the next life:

• I really see no problems with this at all.
• There is no such thing as betrayal in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no such thing as jealousy in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no such thing as "playing favorites" in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no abuse in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no demeaning individuals in the Celestial Kingdom.

So, what would I have to dislike about it?  What should give me heartache about it?

And most important to this thread, what exactly is unequal about it?  There is no such thing as inequality in the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Guest

[jewels8]

Of course I don't understand everything, and neither does anyone else, but we will bring to us in the next life whatever personality, however we act into the next life.  And I am sure that it will take a long time to attain to perfection in the next life.  We still will be dealing with each other in much the same way, even though we will be able to enjoy a more heavenly state.  That is one idea I have on this. Imperfect feelings will not just automatically go away, people will still need time to adjust and change, for those that make it to the highest degree, and I'm sure no matter where a person is placed, they will have to adjust to it.  Of course, God will decide where we need to go.

     One thing I have seen (and this is just my own personal observation, and not necessarily in my marriage, but with marriages in general) is that too often, if a married couple has a problem communicating, it can be too easy for one of them to go communicate about it with some one else.  It could be a friend of the same gender,, a family member, a bishop, a counselor, etc.  But that doesn't seem to help the couple communicate together.  Will polygamy, if a man say, gets a little frustrated with one of his wives, he may not feel a need to work things out with her, he can just go talk to another wife.  If a woman gets frustrated with her husband, she still has to deal with him.  If a man doesn't like a trait in one of his wives, he maybe can feel that he can just leave her alone and go enjoy the company of another wife.  But a woman has to put up with her husband's imperfections, there isn't another spouse she can enjoy or to make up for the lack she finds in him.  He , on the other hand, may be able to have found more perfection, simply because he has more than she does.

     

[jewels8]

p.s.  I forgot to interject in the sentence on a spouse communicating with others that it could be a member of the opposite gender.  A polygamous man could talk to other woman in a close setting about something, but a woman could not get that opportunity to talk to other men like that, even if her husband is too busy, or too impatient or whatever to talk to her.

[jewels8]

she may be able to talk to a bishop, but she can't talk to someone she may want to feel close to because it is not permitted, while he could talk to many he is close to and it is permitted

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I have a question that is related to this thread.  So, I hope this is not a thread jack.  But I was just finding it interesting how many times I keep hearing on this thread, and elsewhere on the internet how unfair polygamy is and why men are obsessed with it and how many women struggle with it.

IRL, I know about a dozen women in family and friend circles well enough that I feel comfortable talking about the subject with them -- and several dozen men.  Here's what I found out in my anecdotal poll:

1. Not a single woman has a problem with it.
2. Not a single man spends much time obsessing over it at all or even giving it much thought except for academic discussion such as this thread.
3. The only people obsessing over it are women online.

Am I living in a bubble or something?  To fit the norm, should I spend more time licking my lips considering all the gorgeous wives I'm to have in the next life? Maybe I'll become a suicide bomber just to top it off.  We're not Muslims.

And I really don't see what the problem is that causes women to struggle.  I know several women on this board have struggled with it.  And I don't mean to diminish your struggles.  But I truly don't understand.  What is it that causes such heartache?

I'm even considering if the roles were reversed would I have a problem with it?  Well, two situations:

1) Polyandry in this life:

• Of course, I'd prefer to have a one-on-one relationship.  It is very special.  But if the Lord commanded it, then He commanded it.  I don't know why exactly.  But there it is.
• I'd find it difficult to share the TIME spent with my wife.  
• But with proper scheduling I figure we could figure things out.
• It would be great to combine incomes and other resources to make our lives better.
• I'd actually have a friend I could talk to about "guy" stuff and go have a guys night out.  (As wonderful as my wife is, there are some things about men she will never understand).

2) Polyandry in the next life:

• I really see no problems with this at all.
• There is no such thing as betrayal in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no such thing as jealousy in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no such thing as "playing favorites" in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no abuse in the Celestial Kingdom.
• There is no demeaning individuals in the Celestial Kingdom.

So, what would I have to dislike about it?  What should give me heartache about it?

And most important to this thread, what exactly is unequal about it?  There is no such thing as inequality in the Celestial Kingdom.

Most females in my family circle (both blood and in-laws) are very uncomfortable with polygamy.  I think @jewels8, on some level, probably reflects a lot of women's thinking:  speaking in generalities, women crave a sort of exclusive emotional intimacy with their spouses; whereas (again, speaking generally) I think most guys take it for granted that their wives are going to have deeply intimate emotional connections with a relatively large number of people.

I know that my wife talks about certain marriage/child-rearing topics with her mother/sister/best friend in my absence.  But, she would feel deeply betrayed if I were to discuss those same topics with those same people in her absence--and heaven help me if I were to bring those topics up with my own parents/siblings/friends.  

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Most females in my family circle (both blood and in-laws) are very uncomfortable with polygamy.  I think @jewels8, on some level, probably reflects a lot of women's thinking:  speaking in generalities, women crave a sort of exclusive emotional intimacy with their spouses; whereas (again, speaking generally) I think most guys take it for granted that their wives are going to have deeply intimate emotional connections with a relatively large number of people.

I know that my wife talks about certain marriage/child-rearing topics with her mother/sister/best friend in my absence.  But, she would feel deeply betrayed if I were to discuss those same topics with those same people in her absence--and heaven help me if I were to bring those topics up with my own parents/siblings/friends.  

That is my experience as well... I have no one but my wife to talk to about personal/family things where as she has her mom, sisters, sister-in-laws, best friends etc.  So if my wife and I were to engage in polygamy and do it right, I might gain another wife to talk to... but she would gain a sister-wife who would totally get everything she was talking about.  So the argument that the man is solely the beneficiary of more people to share personal things with in polygamy makes no sense based on the reality of my marriage. A best I would finally start playing in her league.

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I know that my wife talks about certain marriage/child-rearing topics with her mother/sister/best friend in my absence.  But, she would feel deeply betrayed if I were to discuss those same topics with those same people in her absence--and heaven help me if I were to bring those topics up with my own parents/siblings/friends.  

Interesting! Does she acknowledge the double standard? Does she even recognize it? If so, how does she justify it -- or does she?

[Just_A_Guy]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Interesting! Does she acknowledge the double standard? Does she even recognize it? If so, how does she justify it -- or does she?

Very, very long story there.  Suffice it to say, I think it's human nature for different people to perceive different scenarios in different ways, and for one person to identify distinctions that another person may find meaningless.  I haven't really felt a major need to press the particular questions you bring up.  Overall, I'm good with the relationship; and that's the important thing.  

Edited September 5, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

That is my experience as well... I have no one but my wife to talk to about personal/family things where as she has her mom, sisters, sister-in-laws, best friends etc.  So if my wife and I were to engage in polygamy and do it right, I might gain another wife to talk to... but she would gain a sister-wife who would totally get everything she was talking about.  So the argument that the man is solely the beneficiary of more people to share personal things with in polygamy makes no sense based on the reality of my marriage. A best I would finally start playing in her league.

A non-celestial man married to multiple non-celestial women stands to lose a great deal, with very little benefit to himself beyond increased posterity (and greatly increased responsibility). So the non-celestial man had better be getting a whole lot of sex out of the deal to make it worth his while. But, of course, the non-celestial man needn't bother with marriage for sex, anyway. And given that polygamous marriages were not primarily based on affection (as reported by many early Mormon practitioners of both sexes), the sexual practice resulting from any given marital coupling is likely to be both less satisfying and rarer than in a marriage of affection.

Bottom line: Plural marriage is no more attractive to the non-celestial man than it is to the non-celestial woman. Perhaps that is why our ancestors referred to it as "celestial marriage".

[jewels8]

It is nice to be able to talk to other women, but there is something special about a woman talking to a man who is very close and understands her, there's a certain, maybe for lack of a better work, dynamic that comes to speaking with a member of the opposite gender that is not your brother, father, bishop, etc.  If a woman doesn't have that with her husband, it would be nice if she could have a male friend who she could confide in(not that she would, being married and all, maybe her husband could learn to be a better friend, if he wanted to)

[Guest]

Reading this post I get the feeling, @jewels8,  that you have been a victim of sexual abuse. If that is the case I am sorry for the pain and suffering that it caused you. I think that is why this discussion is hard for you and why you have a hard time seeing others opinion.

I am however alarmed with your statement "Men rape women and girls all the time". It is a horrible misleading statement and you are stereotyping all men into that group. Even after saying you know It's wrong to do so. And at's wrong! Do some men rape women? Yes. Do all men rape women, NO!   I don't know if you 1 to 5 ratio is correct or not but take note that still doesn't mean 1 in 5 men are rapist. Usually perpetrators have many victims and that is why the ratio is so high. Most men are good men, just like most women are good, be very careful at generalizing all men into one group, it's not helpful in any way.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by miav

[jewels8]

I did not say that all men rape women.  Also it is not the men who are the 1 in 5, it is the women who have been sexually abused (not necessarily raped, as I stated)  You can look up the statistics for yourself.  Thank you for your support.

    I also will address more about a woman having a companion she could talk to of the opposite gender, someone she could have  a chemistry or close spiritual connection with.  Unfortunately, not every sealed couple enjoys that, and I guess every couple should strive to be the best companions to each other that they can be.  No one wants to be sealed eternally to someone they cannot be close friends with and simultaneously be barred from a friendship that would be so good & refreshing for them.

[Guest MormonGator]

31 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

It is nice to be able to talk to other women, but there is something special about a woman talking to a man who is very close and understands her, there's a certain, maybe for lack of a better work, dynamic that comes to speaking with a member of the opposite gender that is not your brother, father, bishop, etc.  If a woman doesn't have that with her husband, it would be nice if she could have a male friend who she could confide in(not that she would, being married and all, maybe her husband could learn to be a better friend, if he wanted to)

Yup. Two of my closest friends are women. Some people don't understand that ( @LadyGator does, thank God) but who cares? 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

I did not say that all men rape women.

 

9 hours ago, jewels8 said:

Men rape women and girls all the time.

Agree, you didn't say that, but the quote above implies it. And a common theme in this discussion has been about how horrible men are. I know your view might come from an experience you had but in order for you to understand what others are saying is by realizing that most men are good people, trying the best they can.

[estradling75]

It is nice to be able to talk to your spouse about what you are feeling.  But there is a big difference between typical men and typical woman that you are glossing over.

I consider myself a typical man. When I need to share something with my wife I will.  Then I will be set for Days, Weeks, even Months.  In that time my wife (whom I consider typical) will share her feelings to me 50,75, 100 times or more because as you say it feels good for her to do so.  It is not in any way equal, one could say its not "fair:"  But that is the way it is.

In a polygamist relationship my need to emotionally share is unlikely to increase a whole lot. But my need to listen to my other wives share their feeling doubles(or more).  The advantage of having more then one person to share with isn't much of an advantage when it is not needed or useful.  And the cost of that advantage is rather high.  Thus the claim that polygamy favors the men in this matter makes no sense whatsoever if you understand your typical man.

 

 

 

[jewels8]

I see your point estradling75.

miav, I said many things that are good about men, as well.