Hebrew Grammar

[eVa]

Hello there, I am paging all grammar police/LDS doctrine individuals.  I was recently watching a video and the man was explaining how the first verse of the KJV is grammatically incorrect.  I haven't done much personal research yet so I am starting here.  Basically his stance is that it is wrong because the sentence starts with a "Ba" instead of "A" or Aleph and that all Hebrew sentences start with the A/Aleph.  Any thoughts on this or references I can be directed to would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

[zil]

12 minutes ago, eVa said:

...Basically his stance is that it is wrong because the sentence starts with a "Ba" instead of "A" or Aleph and that all Hebrew sentences start with the A/Aleph.  Any thoughts on this or references I can be directed to would be much appreciated.

Sounds preposterous to me.

[zil]

Although, in one high school English class, we were assigned to write a paper (of any sort) wherein the first letter of the first word of the first sentence was "A", and the first letter of the first word of the second sentence was "B", etc.  And we were required to go through the alphabet at least once.  I wrote a short story and managed 4 times minus 4 letters.

[eVa]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Although, in one high school English class, we were assigned to write a paper (of any sort) wherein the first letter of the first word of the first sentence was "A", and the first letter of the first word of the second sentence was "B", etc.  And we were required to go through the alphabet at least once.  I wrote a short story and managed 4 times minus 4 letters.

That is awesome!!

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, eVa said:

Hello there, I am paging all grammar police/LDS doctrine individuals.  I was recently watching a video and the man was explaining how the first verse of the KJV is grammatically incorrect.  I haven't done much personal research yet so I am starting here.  Basically his stance is that it is wrong because the sentence starts with a "Ba" instead of "A" or Aleph and that all Hebrew sentences start with the A/Aleph.  Any thoughts on this or references I can be directed to would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

I've never heard that is a grammar rule in Hebrew.

[zil]

My brief trip through google showed nothing to indicate that there is some rule that states every sentence in Hebrew must start with aleph/alef.  The whole idea is very artificial (though I don't know Hebrew personally, so I could be wrong, but I doubt it) - over the course of time, the impracticality of this would give way to popular usage and we'd either end up with an artificial sound (akin to "uh") at the start of every sentence, or people would just use whatever word made the most sense, regardless of what letter it started with.

I did however, find no shortage of commentary on the hidden wisdom in the Hebrew alphabet and the significance of starting the Bible with "bet" (which I assume is also "beth", which means "house").

[eVa]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

My brief trip through google showed nothing to indicate that there is some rule that states every sentence in Hebrew must start with aleph/alef.  The whole idea is very artificial (though I don't know Hebrew personally, so I could be wrong, but I doubt it) - over the course of time, the impracticality of this would give way to popular usage and we'd either end up with an artificial sound (akin to "uh") at the start of every sentence, or people would just use whatever word made the most sense, regardless of what letter it started with.

In a lot of talks "um" and "like" are very popular sounds before each word.  I know I did in a lot of my talks!!

[zil]

3 minutes ago, eVa said:

In a lot of talks "um" and "like" are very popular sounds before each word.  I know I did in a lot of my talks!!

Yes, if only we could alter the human mouth to simply clamp shut when the brain starts thinking those sounds.

[SilentOne]

10 minutes ago, eVa said:

In a lot of talks "um" and "like" are very popular sounds before each word.  I know I did in a lot of my talks!!

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, if only we could alter the human mouth to simply clamp shut when the brain starts thinking those sounds.

That would have an interesting effect on conversations involving mummies, humming, hummingbirds, and/or jumping, among other things.

[mordorbund]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

Although, in one high school English class, we were assigned to write a paper (of any sort) wherein the first letter of the first word of the first sentence was "A", and the first letter of the first word of the second sentence was "B", etc.  And we were required to go through the alphabet at least once.  I wrote a short story and managed 4 times minus 4 letters.

Psalm 119 is something of an acrostic, working its way down the alphabet with 8 lines starting with each letter (you can also see the "jod" of "jot and tittle" fame (the tittle is there too, but you'd have to know what you're looking for)).

Edited January 3, 2018 by mordorbund

[brlenox]

46 minutes ago, eVa said:

Hello there, I am paging all grammar police/LDS doctrine individuals.  I was recently watching a video and the man was explaining how the first verse of the KJV is grammatically incorrect.  I haven't done much personal research yet so I am starting here.  Basically his stance is that it is wrong because the sentence starts with a "Ba" instead of "A" or Aleph and that all Hebrew sentences start with the A/Aleph.  Any thoughts on this or references I can be directed to would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

Having learned to read Hebrew some years ago, I can assure you this is not an issue from a Jewish perspective.  Here is a link to a interlinear translation of Genesis 1 and even if you just find the first words of each sentence it is apparent that while it is common to have an aleph it is not required. 

https://answersingenesis.org/hermeneutics/have-we-misunderstood-genesis-11/

This link is written in a left to right reading format which is not traditional Hebrew which is read from right to left.  If you prefer this page has a traditional viewing:

https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0101.htm

Aleph has the distinction of serving as one of two silent letters in Hebrew, useful so that words that start with a vowel can be spelled with an aleph which then forms the place holder for the vowel marks or when the vowel marks are not used it still indicates as a place holder there are vowel sounds to be anticipated. 

Still there are other claims for legitimacy - one of which is discussed here:

https://answersingenesis.org/hermeneutics/have-we-misunderstood-genesis-11/

Edited January 3, 2018 by brlenox

[zil]

Just now, SilentOne said:

That would have an interesting effect on conversations involving mummies, humming, hummingbirds, and/or jumping, among other things.

I think the brain is smart enough to distinguish between stand-alone "words" and syllables.  Also, really, except for @mirkwood, who of us uses "mummies" in day-to-day conversation?

[mordorbund]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

I think the brain is smart enough to distinguish between stand-alone "words" and syllables.  Also, really, except for @mirkwood, who of us uses "mummies" in day-to-day conversation?

Depends on how recently I've read one of @Carborendum's blog posts.

[zil]

1 minute ago, mordorbund said:

Depends on how recently I've read one of @Carborendum's blog posts.

This could become the joke that never dies.

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, eVa said:

Hello there, I am paging all grammar police/LDS doctrine individuals.  I was recently watching a video and the man was explaining how the first verse of the KJV is grammatically incorrect.  I haven't done much personal research yet so I am starting here.  Basically his stance is that it is wrong because the sentence starts with a "Ba" instead of "A" or Aleph and that all Hebrew sentences start with the A/Aleph.  Any thoughts on this or references I can be directed to would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

 

There are libraries with thousands of books written over hundreds of years about textual criticism of Bible translations or versions.  Ancient Hebrew grammar is not well defined and has changed significantly over time.  The first 5 books are called the Books of Moses but the oldest copies of these ancient text that we have come to us from the Dead Sea Scriptures and is about 1,500 years after we believe Moses lived.  It was believed that for hundreds of years the 5 books of Moses were preserved by oral tradition.  Oral traditions were considered poetic (think of memorizing a song or poem) that has particular structure to make memorizing easier.  There are many ancient Hebrew poetic structures.  Here are a few: The Lawsuit.  The messenger speech.  The woe oracle.  The prophetic lament. And the priestly sermon.  Each has its own rules for grammar.  Plus, if someone was to study Hebrew – pending on the Rabbinical connection there can be variations in modern grammar.

If you are going to study on your own – I would suggest first reading books written by a Jewish Rabbi or Catholic scholars (they are the most reliable {first I consider Rabbis and second Catholics} – I have my own opinions why but I will not go there on this thread) but be mindful what background the author has.  For example, Jesuits have different points of view than Franciscans and Orthodox Jews are quite different from “liberal” Jews.

In short anything you read, hear or study will have a point of view and an ax to grind.  We LDS do the same thing.  It is my personal opinion that there are more disputes over meaning (textual criticism) of the Bible than there are of any other ancient or modern texts.  I would council to be warry, especially anyone that thinks they know (without any possible other meaning) the exact meaning of any Biblical verse (especially if they say, “literal meaning” rather than consider symbolic meaning – most likely they do not know much about the ancient texts and how they are used to create modern versions.  There is a reason why Bibles today are called versions and not translations – but that is another discussion.

Good luck

 

The Traveler

Edited January 4, 2018 by Traveler

[mirkwood]

7 hours ago, zil said:

This could become the joke that never dies.

As in mummies are undead?

[Guest]

17 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Depends on how recently I've read one of @Carborendum's blog posts.

I know there's a joke in here somewhere.  But I'm just not quite putting it together.  Did I miss something?

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I know there's a joke in here somewhere.  But I'm just not quite putting it together.  Did I miss something?

Mummy blog?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Mummy blog?

?

[zil]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

?

That obnoxious dude from Australia, who appears to have left now, who would always go on and on about how all we were interested in was "mummy blogs".  I tried to find posts, but they all appear to have been removed.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

That obnoxious dude from Australia, who appears to have left now, who would always go on and on about how all we were interested in was "mummy blogs".  I tried to find posts, but they all appear to have been removed.

So that's what that guy was talking about.  Still wondering... so, how's your day?

[zil]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So that's what that guy was talking about.  Still wondering... so, how's your day?

  I can't even remember the guy's login name, just that he had a big chip on his shoulder, and every time someone disagreed with him or posted some simple gospel truth, he'd accuse us all of only being interested in what he called mommy blogs (or mummy, or mummie, however Australians spell it).

I have no idea how my day is - I fail to comprehend the need to evaluate it and apply labels thereto, so I don't.  But thanks for asking.

[anatess2]

20 hours ago, eVa said:

In a lot of talks "um" and "like" are very popular sounds before each word.  I know I did in a lot of my talks!!

I taught my kids to avoid using the word Like where it is not needed when giving talks.  Also Literally.  Okay, I actually told them to avoid using them and not just on talks. 

 

[zil]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I taught my kids to avoid using the word Like where it is not needed when giving talks.  Also Literally.  Okay, I actually told them to avoid using them and not just on talks. 

 

So, you literally told your kids not to use literally?

[anatess2]

Just now, zil said:

So, you literally told your kids not to use literally?

Like literally.